Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tigers_gonads]

Why havent successive governments retrained and reskilled the workforce?
Why havent they increased help to low paid workers to make it worthwhile to work?
Why are the young written off?

Because it's cheaper and easier to ship in foreigners who are willing to work for minimum wage, than to invest in and train our own youngsters that's why. 

Less then minimum wage Sir Tiggs
Much less 

[tigers_gonads]

In my experience poles bulgarians rumanians french and spaniards have not come here to claim 50 quid a week benefit. They didnt leave their homeland and their families behind for the english food or weather either.
They are here to work.
And having a  ministry of immigration to tightly control whether someone is right for a job is not what british industry wants either. They need to fill positions now. Without the government giving them the ok.
We live in a globalised world. Companies go from country to country and have no loyalties.

Your spot there Johnny_boy
Companies are quite happy to employ the cheapest labour around because it means more money for the shareholder doesn't it 
In the meantime, the people who was born and bred here are kicked further down the food chain.
In fact since the Business act of 2006, profit for the shareholders is everything and how the workforce pay there bills or what squalor they live in is irrelevant.
Just as long as the job gets done and the fifthly lucre keeps flowing into the right taxfree off shore account pockets 

The gap between the silver spoon up arse brigade and the working class has never been wider 

[Sir Tigger KC]

In my experience poles bulgarians rumanians french and spaniards have not come here to claim 50 quid a week benefit. They didnt leave their homeland and their families behind for the english food or weather either.
They are here to work.
And having a  ministry of immigration to tightly control whether someone is right for a job is not what british industry wants either. They need to fill positions now. Without the government giving them the ok.
We live in a globalised world. Companies go from country to country and have no loyalties.

I think that the vast majority of Brits acknowledge this and I personally admire people who are willing to move thousands of miles away from their homes and families in search of a better life.    What has made people angry however is the scale of mass immigration itself, not Pavel down the road who in all likelyhood is an honest decent chap. 

I used to lorry drive for a living and used to go in and out of all the big 4 supermarkets warehouses on a daily basis.  Before 2004 they were all staffed by Brits on good wages (£19000 was the starting salary for warehouse work at Sainsbury's Warehouse in Bristol) and long term contracts, yet by 2006 the vast majority of workers in these places were Eastern Europeans on minimum wage zero hour contracts. These weren't new jobs these people were taking and in my view it was a massive stitch up between the politicians, big business and the trade unions!   

Mass immigration has been good for the economy, yes the majority of immigrants come here to work and contribute more than they take out, but it has depressed wages and has affected society in terms of our public services.  We don't hear much about the deficit these days as our politicians want us to believe that we are a wealthy prosperous country and it's all down to the EU, but we still have an annual deficit of around £70-80 billion a year.  We havn't got the upfront capital to invest in our infrastructure or public services so adding 3 million a decade to the population isn't going to end well! 

[johnny_boy]

Germany saw the beginning of low paid work coming 15 years ago. They dealt with it by splitting jobs into smaller units. So the employee works fewer hours at the same rate. The worker holds 2 or 3 jobs. In this way the employee stays employed at the same hourly rate.
Unions businesd and government came together to thrash out a deal.
Not saying this is for us.
But no such thing has been done here.
Workers are left to the mercy of the market.
Governments and the media in the uk are craven to big business, the murdochs and greens of this world.
Until that changes we are always going to be runners uo.
Thats why i think this whoke eu immigration thing is missing the point.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Germany saw the beginning of low paid work coming 15 years ago. They dealt with it by splitting jobs into smaller units. So the employee works fewer hours at the same rate. The worker holds 2 or 3 jobs. In this way the employee stays employed at the same hourly rate.
Unions businesd and government came together to thrash out a deal.
Not saying this is for us.
But no such thing has been done here.
Workers are left to the mercy of the market.
Governments and the media in the uk are craven to big business, the murdochs and greens of this world.
Until that changes we are always going to be runners uo.
Thats why i think this whoke eu immigration thing is missing the point.

It's not, for very very points you make and it's why there is deep disquiet and quiet anger about immigration in the country. 

The refusal of the 'Remain' campaign to engage with the issue or even admit that we have no control over immigration from the EU will lose them the referendum in my view. 

[johnny_boy]

I think you will find that anti immigration people tend to be very vocal and motivated people.
Whilst people who think about the future prospects for the country are quietly weighing it up.
Immigration whilst a concern is weighed up against future opportunities in a single market place of hundreds of millions of customers. Also the ability to travel and work without restriction is also a tremendous opportunity. The ability to retire to spain and have full social security benefits. Your pension being paid as if you are in the uk. The ability of arresting criminals abroad in the eu - no more costa del crime and uk criminals hiding out on the continent. A quiet border in northern ireland because the uk is seen as being part of a wider european community rather than an occupying power.
You have to weigh this up if pavel and piotr in the polish shop are getting up your nose.

[STEMO]

My real gripe on immigration is not about work or benefits, etc. It is the effect on services, schools, hospitals. It is the difference in culture and their unwillingness to embrace the ways of the country they have chosen to settle in, and it is the fact that they have no concept of overpopulation and drop four or six kids in the same number of years, further stretching our resources.

[gbh]

Pensioners from here in the UK are spending UK money in those countries and the UK picks up the bill for healthcare too,which we pay of course but they do not pay for their citizens here.Why are we one of only 2 countries who actually pay in,if you happy to have your tax money paying for Europe when we have food banks,working to 70,owe and absolute fortune and despite all the immigration and lower standards we still can't balance the books every month.How much worst can it get?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Maybe I can explode this myth about mass uncontrolled immigration being necessary to fill vacancies because Brits don't have the skills or don't want the jobs.
Approx 13 years ago two relatives of mine and their were working on a building site. Both young skilled bricklayers and both serious grafters.
A pair of recent arrivals from eastern parts walked on site and asked the site agent how much he paid bricklayers. The answer was "£150 per day". They replied " we do it for you for £80 per day.
The two bricklayers were told to collect their tools and leave site immediately, the two recent arrivals were hired immediately.
Similar things happened all over the country, and till are.
Its nothing to do with unfilled vacancies or skills shortages. Its about cheap labour and compression of wages. We would be mad not to do something about it while we still have a chance.
The sting in the tail for the site agent concerned was that he had the cheek to ring up the two bricklayers he fired a month or so later and asked them if they would come back for a while as there was a lot of remedial work that needed doing and they were just the right skilled blokes for the job.
They told him to far cough, they would rather starve.

The EU is an old fashioned protectionist bloc, which is in dire economic trouble from which it cannot recover. Its collapse is inevitable, its just a matter of when it will happen.
Try telling young people in Greece or Spain that its a good thing for working people.
We need to stop being "little Europeans, and turn our sights towards the open seas and the wider world. Just as Churchill said we should do if faced with this choice. 

[johnny_boy]

So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

[Mister Rog]

So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

Down here in West Wales getting work done is a nightmare, regardless of what you are prepared to pay.

I want a block wall built. Quite simple, a non load bearing internal block wall with a door that I will supply. No plastering or rendering. Three people never sent the quotes that they said they would, and the one that did has an eight week wait. It's being done (I Hope  ) later this month.

I'm pretty sure that some Polish guys in London would do it in a week or so, and at a good price. My issue with immigration is nothing to do with "cheap labour stealing our jobs" etc. It's just numbers. We're an Island. Our population is around the same as France, but France is almost twice the geographical size. Also, the population has increased quickly and not by gradual childbirth, so our resources the NHS, Schools, roads etc simply have not been able to keep up. I'd actually like a few Poles down here to give the local complacent workmen, builders, painters etc a reality check   

[Sir Tigger KC]

No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

No one is.....  It's the system that's wrong and that's what people are angry about. 

[johnny_boy]

So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

Down here in West Wales getting work done is a nightmare, regardless of what you are prepared to pay.

I want a block wall built. Quite simple, a non load bearing internal block wall with a door that I will supply. No plastering or rendering. Three people never sent the quotes that they said they would, and the one that did has an eight week wait. It's being done (I Hope  ) later this month.

I'm pretty sure that some Polish guys in London would do it in a week or so, and at a good price. My issue with immigration is nothing to do with "cheap labour stealing our jobs" etc. It's just numbers. We're an Island. Our population is around the same as France, but France is almost twice the geographical size. Also, the population has increased quickly and not by gradual childbirth, so our resources the NHS, Schools, roads etc simply have not been able to keep up. I'd actually like a few Poles down here to give the local complacent workmen, builders, painters etc a reality check   

Dont like quoting so much but go back 15 years you try getting small jobs done around the house here in hertfordshire. Carpentry, plumbing. Brit workers would come around to look at the job and wouldnt bother quoting or even ringing back. Later, polish people arrive in the area. Polish guys come around, quote, do the job at a fair price, do it well. Why would you want to turn the clock back.

[tigers_gonads]

So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

Without doubt, the south east of this country and inside the M25 is a special case when it comes down to everything from the price of a bag of sugar upto property and land.
Everything is stupidly priced compared to the rest of the country and hopefully will eat itself sooner rather then later. Either that or build a friggin big wall around it and leave it to its own devices 

So Johnny, what you are affectively saying is that if Abdul from his underdeveloped shithole of a country turns up on our shores, walks onto a building site and says he will build that wall for half what a British born and bred person will do then that's okay ?
Are really saying that if the British born and bred tradesman refuses to work for that pay, he is a lazy bastard and we should all be grateful to Abdul for showing us the error of our ways 
Even though Abdul is earning 3 times what he would be doing in his shithole country ?

[Sir Tigger KC]

So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.

Without doubt, the south east of this country and inside the M25 is a special case when it comes down to everything from the price of a bag of sugar upto property and land.
Everything is stupidly priced compared to the rest of the country and hopefully will eat itself sooner rather then later. Either that or build a friggin big wall around it and leave it to its own devices 

So Johnny, what you are affectively saying is that if Abdul from his underdeveloped shithole of a country turns up on our shores, walks onto a building site and says he will build that wall for half what a British born and bred person will do then that's okay ?
Are really saying that if the British born and bred tradesman refuses to work for that pay, he is a lazy bastard and we should all be grateful to Abdul for showing us the error of our ways 
Even though Abdul is earning 3 times what he would be doing in his shithole country ?

Which EU shithole country did you have in mind that Abdul comes from Mr 'Nads?