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[ronnyd]

I see that some blocks (including one in the area near Grenvelle Tower) appears to have a stand alone stairwell block beside the main block. That should give the residents of the upper floors a fighting chance of evacuating. 

[STEMO]

I  cannot believe in this day and age there isnt a serviceable design for an escape device.

In 30 seconds of thinking here are just spme ideas.

Whaling harpoon to fire escape line into building.

Building mounted harpoon escape lines

Permanently fixed escape lines

Escape pods with airbags.

Internal escape pods in tubing like supermarket money system.

Cost? How much would it cost if people en masse refuse to live in towers?

Whaling harpoons would be used by local drug dealers to settle scores

Permanently fixed lines would require lots of space between buildings.

You could make your own escape pod with a quilt and pillows and throw yourself down the bin chute.


How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

[Kevin Wood]

How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

You forgot the bit about NOT then cladding it with a flammable material to keep some tree-huggers happy qualify for some grant or other.

[Andy H]

How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

You forgot the bit about NOT then cladding it with a flammable material to keep some tree-huggers happy qualify for some grant or other.

The original concrete cladding had/has deep flutes cast into the face. Planting slabs of insulation over the flutes would have created dozens of vertical cavities between the concrete and the insulation. If those vertical cavities were not blocked off (eg fire stopped) then they would have caused a chimney effect.

Some reports have referred to polyurethane insulation with a skin of aluminium on the outside being used. Others have mentioned that the best plastic foam has a 'class 0' for 'surface spread of flame'. Class 0 is 'self extinguishing' in laboratory conditions but it releases just as much energy in a fire as foam that hasn't been treated. Stick a lighted cigarette into it and you can get a small flame but it will then smoulder for a while before going out. Place that same piece of class 0 foam in a chimney, with a serious ignition source, and it will burn and burn fiercely.

Mistakes happen but it takes a string of errors, misunderstandings and stupidity for a truly catastrophic event to occur

[Lizzie Zoom]

How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

You forgot the bit about NOT then cladding it with a flammable material to keep some tree-huggers happy qualify for some grant or other.

The original concrete cladding had/has deep flutes cast into the face. Planting slabs of insulation over the flutes would have created dozens of vertical cavities between the concrete and the insulation. If those vertical cavities were not blocked off (eg fire stopped) then they would have caused a chimney effect.

Some reports have referred to polyurethane insulation with a skin of aluminium on the outside being used. Others have mentioned that the best plastic foam has a 'class 0' for 'surface spread of flame'. Class 0 is 'self extinguishing' in laboratory conditions but it releases just as much energy in a fire as foam that hasn't been treated. Stick a lighted cigarette into it and you can get a small flame but it will then smoulder for a while before going out. Place that same piece of class 0 foam in a chimney, with a serious ignition source, and it will burn and burn fiercely.

Mistakes happen but it takes a string of errors, misunderstandings and stupidity for a truly catastrophic event to occurrence

.......and references are being made to various major fires in tower blocks across the world where cladding has been responsible for fires travelling at speed up their sides. This should have been a wake call for the authorities, but who of them really care beyond the costs about the effect on the hard up, the poor, the working classes?! Tower blocks, as I have stated before, are a failed experiment of the 1960s / 1970s and should not be up, or at least used for families above the third floor. But no, that costs money, so let's dress them up to make people be happier living in them, no matter what the misery is caused by just being at a high level when the lifts break down, and always worried about the safety of their children. No, one rule for the rich, one for the poor no matter how much they complain about their fears, as indeed in this case and not just about broken lifts, but fire safety!

Those responsible must be prosecuted for manslaughter, and these blocks must come down no matter what it costs!

[Doctor Gollum]

There's a reason the MD11 is no longer used as a passenger jet in any significant numbers...

Fire retardant foam insulation which, once hot enough, burns as ferociously as a diesel/kerosene blend.

Also consider that not all igniotion sources involve a spark or flame

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My daughter was at the site all day today. Part of a human chain of volunteers passing water from the tube / railway station ? to where it was being stored or distributed.
She was overwhelmed by the community spirit. Older people were saying the spirit of the blitz lives on. When the going gets really tough, Londoners pull together and help one another.
She said the building is really eerie. Looks like something out of a war zone has been placed in the middle of West London.
One knobhead taking a selfie with the building as a backdrop wasn't made very welcome though.

[zirk]

My daughter was at the site all day today. Part of a human chain of volunteers passing water from the tube / railway station ? to where it was being stored or distributed.
She was overwhelmed by the community spirit. Older people were saying the spirit of the blitz lives on. When the going gets really tough, Londoners pull together and help one another.
She said the building is really eerie. Looks like something out of a war zone has been placed in the middle of West London.
One knobhead taking a selfie with the building as a backdrop wasn't made very welcome though.

Good for Her. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Made me think maybe I wasn't as useless a parent as I thought I had been, after all. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Made me think maybe I wasn't as useless a parent as I thought I had been, after all. 

Nah, it's all her Mother's influence

[VXL V6]

How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

You forgot the bit about NOT then cladding it with a flammable material to keep some tree-huggers happy qualify for some grant or other.

The original concrete cladding had/has deep flutes cast into the face. Planting slabs of insulation over the flutes would have created dozens of vertical cavities between the concrete and the insulation. If those vertical cavities were not blocked off (eg fire stopped) then they would have caused a chimney effect.

Some reports have referred to polyurethane insulation with a skin of aluminium on the outside being used. Others have mentioned that the best plastic foam has a 'class 0' for 'surface spread of flame'. Class 0 is 'self extinguishing' in laboratory conditions but it releases just as much energy in a fire as foam that hasn't been treated. Stick a lighted cigarette into it and you can get a small flame but it will then smoulder for a while before going out. Place that same piece of class 0 foam in a chimney, with a serious ignition source, and it will burn and burn fiercely.

Mistakes happen but it takes a string of errors, misunderstandings and stupidity for a truly catastrophic event to occurrence

.......and references are being made to various major fires in tower blocks across the world where cladding has been responsible for fires travelling at speed up their sides. This should have been a wake call for the authorities, but who of them really care beyond the costs about the effect on the hard up, the poor, the working classes?! Tower blocks, as I have stated before, are a failed experiment of the 1960s / 1970s and should not be up, or at least used for families above the third floor. But no, that costs money, so let's dress them up to make people be happier living in them, no matter what the misery is caused by just being at a high level when the lifts break down, and always worried about the safety of their children. No, one rule for the rich, one for the poor no matter how much they complain about their fears, as indeed in this case and not just about broken lifts, but fire safety!

Those responsible must be prosecuted for manslaughter, and these blocks must come down no matter what it costs!

Money that the public sector does not have......

I think your mixing 'dressing up' with 'meeting forthcoming efficiency legislation', no Local Authority would spend £££'s fitting cladding on a building just to make it look nice when so many other Council services need investment.

Also Fire Sprinkler systems aren't legislatively required to be retrofitted to properties that were built without them over a certain period of time ago. 

Obviously the priorities and legislation / lack of legislation are wrong and need reversing, perhaps if this Country could put on hold all the green politics 'dangle berries' and concentrate on bringing safety matters in front of said 'dangle berries' it could prevent something so tragic and devastating as this from ever happening again.

My condolences go out to all those who have lost family and friends.

[Lizzie Zoom]

How about a building that's made of non-combustible materials and each apartment air tight from the rest with the doors and windows closed? Oh....hang on......

You forgot the bit about NOT then cladding it with a flammable material to keep some tree-huggers happy qualify for some grant or other.

The original concrete cladding had/has deep flutes cast into the face. Planting slabs of insulation over the flutes would have created dozens of vertical cavities between the concrete and the insulation. If those vertical cavities were not blocked off (eg fire stopped) then they would have caused a chimney effect.

Some reports have referred to polyurethane insulation with a skin of aluminium on the outside being used. Others have mentioned that the best plastic foam has a 'class 0' for 'surface spread of flame'. Class 0 is 'self extinguishing' in laboratory conditions but it releases just as much energy in a fire as foam that hasn't been treated. Stick a lighted cigarette into it and you can get a small flame but it will then smoulder for a while before going out. Place that same piece of class 0 foam in a chimney, with a serious ignition source, and it will burn and burn fiercely.

Mistakes happen but it takes a string of errors, misunderstandings and stupidity for a truly catastrophic event to occurrence

.......and references are being made to various major fires in tower blocks across the world where cladding has been responsible for fires travelling at speed up their sides. This should have been a wake call for the authorities, but who of them really care beyond the costs about the effect on the hard up, the poor, the working classes?! Tower blocks, as I have stated before, are a failed experiment of the 1960s / 1970s and should not be up, or at least used for families above the third floor. But no, that costs money, so let's dress them up to make people be happier living in them, no matter what the misery is caused by just being at a high level when the lifts break down, and always worried about the safety of their children. No, one rule for the rich, one for the poor no matter how much they complain about their fears, as indeed in this case and not just about broken lifts, but fire safety!

Those responsible must be prosecuted for manslaughter, and these blocks must come down no matter what it costs!

Money that the public sector does not have......

I think your mixing 'dressing up' with 'meeting forthcoming efficiency legislation', no Local Authority would spend £££'s fitting cladding on a building just to make it look nice when so many other Council services need investment.

Also Fire Sprinkler systems aren't legislatively required to be retrofitted to properties that were built without them over a certain period of time ago. 

Obviously the priorities and legislation / lack of legislation are wrong and need reversing, perhaps if this Country could put on hold all the green politics 'dangle berries' and concentrate on bringing safety matters in front of said 'dangle berries' it could prevent something so tragic and devastating as this from ever happening again.

My condolences go out to all those who have lost family and friends.

How does fancy cladding ever do anything for "efficiency" or even the environment with blocks of high rise flats built quickly and cheaply in the 1960s / 70s?  Are they solar panels? No.  Do they provide hot water? No.  Do they help the concrete retain it's heat? No, if you ask the tenants of these blocks; that is until they provide free heating when on fire!

This block in particular is in one of the richest boroughs, and City in the World. But as I said, no one of the local ruling classes cares about the "little people", and the attitude for ever has been to house them, if "we really have to" in the cheapest solution to housing the masses. I was listening to a very angry local councilor in this borough, and he said repeated warnings were given about the fears of fire risks that were being caused by the refurbishments, but none of the managing authorities, or the company carrying out the work, Rydon, wanted to know or listen. Certain complaining tenants have even alleged that they were physically threatened by contractor representatives to "shut up" and just accept what is!

This was not about public sector money but private resource making sure they made maximum profit from the contract. As I stated there have been so many fires across the world involving this cladding, but no one thought to stop the mad dash to install it right up to now. Why? Well that is because it would stop companies and investors making their profit. Who cares about the "little people"|?  They should just shut up and put up is their, and no doubt also those within the political world, attitude.

/.....................

[Lizzie Zoom]

............../ 

What comes first?  Money or peoples lives? Yes, everyone in authority is crying and shaking hands with the victims, with much "so sorry this has happened"; we can all give our condolences, but those words are cheap!  What the vast majority of the common people want is fine, quality and safe housing for all in considerable quantity to meet the needs of the 21st century, no matter what the cost.  That is what should be a fundamental human right. If there is still a resistance to this, then we have moved very little away from the slum housing of Victorian England, although at least that had a feeling of community. 

No matter how you dress up (yes and I will use that term again) these high rise blocks they will still have their fundamental flaws in terms of Health and Safety, Social interaction, and physical suitability. Bring em down, and build that new, low rise, housing

[Doctor Gollum]

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html

Up for rent following right to buy purchase and subsequent refurbishment... yet you accuse the contractors/councils of being greedy

Anyone paying £1,700 a month to live there wants sectioning...

[tunnie]

In reality knocking down these high rises will never really happen....even if there another fire tomorrow.

So my first property was a flat, not high rise as such, only 7 floors and built in the mid 1930's. My flat had a share of the freehold which is rare, so by owning it I was invited to the board meetings, for the company that maintained the flats and had a vote on decisions made.

There were about 60 flats in total, at the time (2010-13) only 7 were owner-occupied including mine, the rest were rented. Some were private rented, some often to the council, which sadly let 'interesting' characters stay in them. The maintenance fee was quite high, just under 200 notes a month. (did have 2 small lifts) But only around 70% of the flats were actually paid up, many landlords did not bother paying it.

Cash flow was a real problem for maintaining the building, things had to be saved up for, like new carpet or windows. My building did not have sprinklers, although there were alarms. I'd imagine sprinklers would be a huge, huge job and massively expensive and would only do the corridors?

So something like that would have to go out to flat owners, to stump up say £500 each to get £30k and potential for setup in each flat. The issue is you will never get every flat to pay up, some won't - So the company would then have to get a loan? More costs.... other flats having to pay for others that won't pay. It's all a mess really. 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html

Up for rent following right to buy purchase and subsequent refurbishment... yet you accuse the contractors/councils of being greedy

Anyone paying £1,700 a month to live there wants sectioning...

2 bed flat in Zone 1? That's good value for London. Guy I work with is looking to flat share, their budget is exactly that... so be £850 each. That's standard London costings....

I could have rented my 1 bed flat when I had it, on Zone 2 border in Acton for well over £1.2k a month