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[Doctor Gollum]

Again LZ you have completely side stepped the point.

Regardless of who or how or to what vehicle is involved it is the driver's responsibility to check that a) the wheel nuts/bolts are correctly tightened and b) subsequently re checked after a certain period of time/distance has elapsed.

I also have personal experience of having a wheel changed mid way through a day's deliveries only to have to call the fitter back out an hour later to retorque the nuts.

Whilst it is obvious that a detached truck wheel will kill in an instant, don't overlook the fact that a car one will do so just as efficiently.

I am actually surprised that there is no mention of rechecking the wheel nuts in the Omega owners manual. It is included in my Mercedes one.

The reason for rechecking them is simply that the hub temperature has a bearing on the tightness as does vibration and the direction of wheel rotation. This is why hub spinners generally have a reverse thread... Traditional threads will naturally undo if not fully tightened when the hubs are rotated anticlockwise.

As an aside, I have had to refit the side door of several Sprinters (and Transhits) over the years but never the NSR wheel This was undoubtedly due to TNT having an extremely robust wheel nut policy. This has also been the case at every single haulage firm that I have driven for... In fact every firm where I have worked involving vehicles.

Bottom line is that it is ultimately the driver who is responsible.

[Rods2]

I'm sure that when Varche is struggling in the pissing rain to tighten his nuts with a pair of tweezers on the side of a Spanish motorway somewhere near San Sebastian tomorrow, he'll remember your wife's cut finger and will wonder what the message was!   

Good that Varche's wife in the future can have a cut finger & talk about it. I can create a very, very long list of those that have died far too young, especially in my teens as a biker, to not appreciate and be very happy that Brian & his wife have thankfully got away with it.

Now is not a good time to lecture me on accidents or death as a 80yo BA retired ground crew neighbour died last week over tripping over a Hoover lead. As a widower he used to go for his daily two pints, at our local social club but didn't turn up for several days. The bar steward went round to his house, reluctantly went into the house through his unlocked backdoor out of concern and found him with a congealed bloodied head where he had hit it followed by multiple strokes, where he was too paralysed on one side to get up and as he tried had wrapped himself more and more around the lead. Where he had laid for a few days on his side he had a black no-circulation  arm which was not pretty. Frimley Park hospital said he would not last the weekend & he didn't. There is no good way to go but this was pretty horrendous & as is along with too many RTA bits of friends in cars or stroon down the road from bikes, not to mention the severely brain damaged, wheel chair bound crippled survivors that I've also known.

[Varche]

Day 42

Cannot sleep for talk of death and tightening nuts with tweezers. 

[Bigron]

Some time ago when I was foolish enough to go to Kqikshit for a tyre (good price at the time), I had to insist that they did NOT use a winmdy gun to tighten the wheelnuts, but use a torque spanner. Having found one, they were at a loss to know which setting to use; I had to tell them that needed to be 110nm!

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Again LZ you have completely side stepped the point.

Regardless of who or how or to what vehicle is involved it is the driver's responsibility to check that a) the wheel nuts/bolts are correctly tightened and b) subsequently re checked after a certain period of time/distance has elapsed.

I also have personal experience of having a wheel changed mid way through a day's deliveries only to have to call the fitter back out an hour later to retorque the nuts.

Whilst it is obvious that a detached truck wheel will kill in an instant, don't overlook the fact that a car one will do so just as efficiently.

I am actually surprised that there is no mention of rechecking the wheel nuts in the Omega owners manual. It is included in my Mercedes one.

The reason for rechecking them is simply that the hub temperature has a bearing on the tightness as does vibration and the direction of wheel rotation. This is why hub spinners generally have a reverse thread... Traditional threads will naturally undo if not fully tightened when the hubs are rotated anticlockwise.

As an aside, I have had to refit the side door of several Sprinters (and Transhits) over the years but never the NSR wheel This was undoubtedly due to TNT having an extremely robust wheel nut policy. This has also been the case at every single haulage firm that I have driven for... In fact every firm where I have worked involving vehicles.

Bottom line is that it is ultimately the driver who is responsible.

No, I am just looking at it, and what happened to Varche in his particular case from a differellnt legal angle DG

I do understand completely what you are saying and agree completely that a mechanic /technician, or whatever the person is who works on your motor vehicle is called, in a professional capacity or an unpaid one, can and do get things seriously wrong and can make errors - be negligent - that cause very real problems for the driver. But to rigidly claim it is always the drivers responsibity to check what that mechanic has done is simply wrong.

Example for my legal argument;  a heavy, 25 tonne 4 axle truck fully loaded with building aggregate ran out of control down a steep hill in Bath after the brakes failed and, tragically killed a grandmother,,and worse still, a 4 year old girl, along with two others in a car, overturning and demolishing walls to end up on it's side:'(

A subsequent investigation by various official departments concluded that the brakes were badly maintained and failed due to criminal negligence by the chief mechanic and the owner of the haulage firm who, it was fully proved, was totally aware of a practice to cut corners on the maintenance of the HGV's.

A court case followed and, recently, the chief mechanic and the haulage company's owner were convicted of manslaughter and imprisioned.  The driver of the truck was CLEARED of all responsibility by the court.

So, no, the driver is NOT always responsible for checking what a mechanic has done with his vehicle, as Varche was not responsible legally for the damage caused to his vehicle, and the threat to his and his passenger's lives by the negligence of the tyre fitter.

I rest my case M'Lord.

I rest

[tidla]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

[Entwood]

Having had all 4 tyres changed, today I reached 50 miles, so "torque checked" all 4 wheels at 120Nm as the book says ... interestingly, 3 out of 4 wheels showed exectly zero movement as expected, on the 4th wheel 3 of the 5 bolts moved about 10 degrees before the torque wrench set ... so they will be rechecked in another 50 miles...   The tin tent was also checked... no movement ... 

[Doctor Gollum]

Having had all 4 tyres changed, today I reached 50 miles, so "torque checked" all 4 wheels at 120Nm as the book says ... interestingly, 3 out of 4 wheels showed exectly zero movement as expected, on the 4th wheel 3 of the 5 bolts moved about 10 degrees before the torque wrench set ... so they will be rechecked in another 50 miles...   The tin tent was also checked... no movement ... 

QED

[BazaJT]

Holding my hands up here I have never re-checked the tightness of wheel nuts/bolts on any car I've ever owned.Not once have I had a wheel wobble or fall off

[Lizzie Zoom]

Holding my hands up here I have never re-checked the tightness of wheel nuts/bolts on any car I've ever owned.Not once have I had a wheel wobble or fall off

That is it Baza. There are two lines of thought on this thread. One is yours that is the same as mine, our experiences do not suggest this is a general problem, but one maybe due completely to the negligence of the tyre fitter and/or the materials used. As I stated before, but I do not know if you can say the same, I and my business colleagues did 100's of thousands of miles in relatively short periods of time, and like me clocked up 1,000,000 miles, often at high speeds. They and I NEVER experienced a wheel coming off, or anything like it. I was never aware of anyone else having that problem either. Like you I have NEVER checked my wheel bolts.

Now the second line of thought, which I would be a fool to ignore, claims that this is a common problem if you do not check your wheel bolts after a tyre change, or as a matter of routine. However, there seems to be a suggestion that those examples are of situations where the materials - the bolts- used are sub-standard, the air guns used have not, for whatever reason worked correctly, or simply down to negligent actions by the mechanic or fitter involved.

I have of course been coming at this from the legal angle for the benefit of Varche's case and making the point that if the driver is not the one to fit the wheel and a third party is, especially a professional and supposedly competent person to undertake such work, then the legal responisibilty for any misfortunes that arise is with them.  It is not REASONABLE for a driver, such as an 80 year old or indeed of any age, to be expected to have the ability or indeed knowledge to undertake checks after someone who is meant to be qualified to undertake such work, and receives reward for doing so, has done so. Any disclaimer by the garage is therefore subject to legal challenge.
 

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

[dave the builder]

This thread reminds me of the POS picasso clutch issue about a year ago (discussed on OOF)
I remember there being warnings on the clutch cowboys invoice about returning @ 500 miles to have the clutch checked and again @ 1500 IIRC
Fortunately ,for the case , the gearbox parted company with the engine  within the 500 miles and was returned, it went back twice  for them to fix ,this was due to missing bolts,clearly not tightened or not fitted .due to the lack of earth path via the gearbox to the starter motor, it also fried all the ECU loom etc effectively writing off the car.I had to take photos and get an engineer's report
 after months,lots of emails,phone calls etc and legal threats , the matter got resolved,
because the £760 bill for the work had been paid by credit card, the credit card company refunded the bill, plus £1000 to find a replacement vehicle, plus £500 for expenses for hire car,etc etc plus we kept the picasso and scrapped it (another £160 for the kitty) ,they then pursued the case themselves .probably got more as a final settlement  who knows, I was just happy to get rid of the POS picasso and draw a line under it all .
I'm not a fan of buying anything on credit ,however, paying for a bill for services with a credit card, then paying in full the credit card balance at the end of the month ,paid off well in this case.
I had good evidence, photographs ,engineers report, the damaged car etc ,and could have pursued the case via small claims and I expected to win, BUT was happy to let the credit card company factor the debt and deal with it ,because it takes a lot of time/hassle to  deal with .

In Mr Varche's case, I'd hope to be refunded the cost of replacement wheel,tyre, hub and wheel nuts and fitting , plus a token gesture (say £50  ) and leave it at that.

[Lizzie Zoom]

This thread reminds me of the POS picasso clutch issue about a year ago (discussed on OOF)
I remember there being warnings on the clutch cowboys invoice about returning @ 500 miles to have the clutch checked and again @ 1500 IIRC
Fortunately ,for the case , the gearbox parted company with the engine  within the 500 miles and was returned, it went back twice  for them to fix ,this was due to missing bolts,clearly not tightened or not fitted .due to the lack of earth path via the gearbox to the starter motor, it also fried all the ECU loom etc effectively writing off the car.I had to take photos and get an engineer's report
 after months,lots of emails,phone calls etc and legal threats , the matter got resolved,
because the £760 bill for the work had been paid by credit card, the credit card company refunded the bill, plus £1000 to find a replacement vehicle, plus £500 for expenses for hire car,etc etc plus we kept the picasso and scrapped it (another £160 for the kitty) ,they then pursued the case themselves .probably got more as a final settlement  who knows, I was just happy to get rid of the POS picasso and draw a line under it all .
I'm not a fan of buying anything on credit ,however, paying for a bill for services with a credit card, then paying in full the credit card balance at the end of the month ,paid off well in this case.
I had good evidence, photographs ,engineers report, the damaged car etc ,and could have pursued the case via small claims and I expected to win, BUT was happy to let the credit card company factor the debt and deal with it ,because it takes a lot of time/hassle to  deal with .

In Mr Varche's case, I'd hope to be refunded the cost of replacement wheel,tyre, hub and wheel nuts and fitting , plus a token gesture (say £50  ) and leave it at that.

Indeed don't Dave, that should be the satisfactory conclusion and no doubt Varche is pushing for that.

However, we all know what the motor industry is like, even and especially with main dealers. Therefore Varche may have to resort to my favourite starter for ten, The Consumer Rights Act 2015

[Doctor Gollum]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion.

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained...

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept

[Rods2]

Good luck to all of you that feel lucky that your unchecked wheel nuts are tight and for those not so cool unlucky cats trying to use their tenth life:

I was standing at the pearly gate to learn my fate,

I told St Peter I was going at a rate as I was late.

As he pointed down at the fire,

I told him it wasn't my fault I lost the wheel and tyre.

He point down again and said I don't care,

I said, it was the tyre fitters fault and that's not fair.

A frown on his face and a take him down yell,

It no longer matters, that this didn't end well.