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Author Topic: Is this correct.  (Read 1306 times)

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gavlar001

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Is this correct.
« on: 08 March 2021, 13:04:32 »

Been having a look at the old timing belt as i have no paperwork at seems to be set up ok apart from the lower idler is fixed at has no pointer nor adjustment and the tensioner is set to the photos position.This is a used belt fitted to it when i bought it i dont know how old it is it looks like a gates kit as per written on the belt.it lines up ok with the locking kit on in fact perfect but is the tension set correctly.Any ideas would be greatfully welcome.thanks gavin.
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/ef3bc564-3525-4e2d-b398-e1c41796b026
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/b288a116-9f06-48f4-956f-e56068d519d7
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/05e9252d-8c28-4cfe-aa1a-9ed119941ea9
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/9fc04d71-a107-4b13-ad10-0b90a7b825b2
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/217416c6-4eda-4b62-87aa-fc8b555c36a4
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/c450f3ea-15a7-4d3a-935c-e0b5569b85be
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #1 on: 08 March 2021, 13:37:02 »

Oh its a 2.6 v6 thanks.
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Nick W

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #2 on: 08 March 2021, 13:51:56 »

A visual inspection is only useful if the belt or bearings are damaged.


If the timing tools all line up then you know it was at least fitted correctly.


Given the expensive damage that a failed belt causes, not knowing its history justifies changing it.


Especially if it was a 'used belt' Why would anyone consider that a good idea?  ???
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2021, 13:59:35 »

Hi nick thanks mate. Im planning to change it asap.As per everything in life money is an issue at the moment.So the car is staying unused until i do.I just wondered if it has been fitted correctly ie tension and the fixed roller at the bottom but as you have said it just better off changing it.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #4 on: 08 March 2021, 14:38:23 »

Fixed lower roller is normal on 2.6/3.2 :y
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Nick W

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #5 on: 08 March 2021, 14:49:21 »

Hi nick thanks mate. Im planning to change it asap.As per everything in life money is an issue at the moment.So the car is staying unused until i do.I just wondered if it has been fitted correctly ie tension and the fixed roller at the bottom but as you have said it just better off changing it.


They're actually easier to fit with the fixed lower roller, as there is less to screw up. It pretty much guarantees that cams 3&4 are going to be timed correctly.
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Enceladus

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #6 on: 08 March 2021, 15:17:44 »

I just get the photobucket login page on all of your links. I can't see any of the photos.

A 2.6 has a lower deflection pulley with no eccentric adjustment, so it's fixed. The backplate for tensioner and upper pully is also different from earlier models. The kit you need is a Contitech CT990K2 or similar. The Gates kit is K035453XS.

You can use the earlier versions of most kits but you will need to adjust the eccentric on the lower idler and swap your existing backplate for the one in the earlier kits. Earlier ContiTech is CT990K1 and Gates is K025453XS. Easy to do.

Here's a Quinton Hazel kit which will suit your car. Albeit with adjustable lower eccentric and the backplate will need to be swapped. At 59 delivered it's a bit of a bargain these days.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2021, 15:29:24 by Enceladus »
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STEMO

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #7 on: 08 March 2021, 15:56:32 »

Been having a look at the old timing belt as i have no paperwork at seems to be set up ok apart from the lower idler is fixed at has no pointer nor adjustment and the tensioner is set to the photos position.This is a used belt fitted to it when i bought it i dont know how old it is it looks like a gates kit as per written on the belt.it lines up ok with the locking kit on in fact perfect but is the tension set correctly.Any ideas would be greatfully welcome.thanks gavin.
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/ef3bc564-3525-4e2d-b398-e1c41796b026
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/b288a116-9f06-48f4-956f-e56068d519d7
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/05e9252d-8c28-4cfe-aa1a-9ed119941ea9
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/9fc04d71-a107-4b13-ad10-0b90a7b825b2
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/217416c6-4eda-4b62-87aa-fc8b555c36a4
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gavlar001/p/c450f3ea-15a7-4d3a-935c-e0b5569b85be
You've got your album set to private.
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #8 on: 08 March 2021, 16:00:12 »

Thanks all, nice one ive bought a kit for it as i already have a sealy locking kit for it and as nick said its not a place to be risking it in terms of just leaving it.Ive already stripped the water pump off as i have one of those.so its ready for the new one to go back on before doing the belt.Its the first one ive done but i do have the dvd.i noticed the cam locks go in fine and the cam markings are different for each cam notched onto the cams which was something i was not aware off.The old tensioner does not load and load when rotating the crank which must mean its shot as that cant be right surely.lol :-\
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #9 on: 08 March 2021, 16:03:25 »

Sorry its photobucket its a free account lol, so useful. :'(
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #10 on: 08 March 2021, 16:32:43 »

What the best way to do it if the lower roller is fixed  :-\
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #11 on: 08 March 2021, 16:39:44 »

From memory, anticlockwise starting from the crank...
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #12 on: 08 March 2021, 16:48:22 »

Thanks if there is no lower eccentric idle pulley unlike the dvd how do you degree up banks 3 and 4.Although at the moment when locked the marks are bang on on both banks.
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Nick W

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #13 on: 08 March 2021, 17:18:23 »

Thanks if there is no lower eccentric idle pulley unlike the dvd how do you degree up banks 3 and 4.Although at the moment when locked the marks are bang on on both banks.


you fit the belt around the crank pulley, then over the fixed idler and onto 3&4 ensuring that it's tensioned correctly. Then work around the adjuster between the heads, over 1&2, and past the tensioner. You might need to have fixed idler loose on its bolt.


If you get all that right, 3&4 will align properly on each successive turn through, leaving you to tweak 1&2 and finally the tensioner.


These are much easier to do than the earlier, completely adjustable idlers

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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #14 on: 08 March 2021, 17:52:31 »

Brilliant thanks for the good advice.What position should the upper idler arrow and the tensioner be in before routing the belt.
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #15 on: 08 March 2021, 21:53:00 »

And is it ok once the crank locking tool has been used to set the crank at TDC and the cam marks are good with the locking tools in each set of cams to fit the belt as per the dvd with the crank locking tool removed from the water pump. :-\
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Nick W

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #16 on: 08 March 2021, 22:14:51 »

And is it ok once the crank locking tool has been used to set the crank at TDC and the cam marks are good with the locking tools in each set of cams to fit the belt as per the dvd with the crank locking tool removed from the water pump. :-\


Why would you do that? It's not difficult to move the crank without noticing, and then you'll be chasing your tail.


This is a job that only looks complicated, which makes 'shortcuts' look attractive. Resist the temptation, and get it right.

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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #17 on: 08 March 2021, 23:03:11 »

Yep thanks its just on the dvd the belt was fitted with the crank locking tool removed.I did think any movement from the crank or the belt pulling on the crank from fitment would move the TDC position out from true top dead center.So i take it keeping it locked in to the water pump during removal and refitting is a must.Thanks
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polilara

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #18 on: 10 March 2021, 10:13:00 »

I just get the photobucket login page on all of your links. I can't see any of the photos.

A 2.6 has a lower deflection pulley with no eccentric adjustment, so it's fixed. The backplate for tensioner and upper pully is also different from earlier models. The kit you need is a Contitech CT990K2 or similar. The Gates kit is K035453XS.

You can use the earlier versions of most kits but you will need to adjust the eccentric on the lower idler and swap your existing backplate for the one in the earlier kits. Earlier ContiTech is CT990K1 and Gates is K025453XS. Easy to do.


Here's a Quinton Hazel kit which will suit your car. Albeit with adjustable lower eccentric and the backplate will need to be swapped. At 59 delivered it's a bit of a bargain these days.

I follow this with interest but do not understand everything. So my 2.6 Engine number is 08533230 and both upper and lower idlers are eccentric. Kits I used had those as well. Does this mean that I could use kits with fixed lower idler in the future?
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #19 on: 10 March 2021, 13:00:34 »

I just get the photobucket login page on all of your links. I can't see any of the photos.

A 2.6 has a lower deflection pulley with no eccentric adjustment, so it's fixed. The backplate for tensioner and upper pully is also different from earlier models. The kit you need is a Contitech CT990K2 or similar. The Gates kit is K035453XS.

You can use the earlier versions of most kits but you will need to adjust the eccentric on the lower idler and swap your existing backplate for the one in the earlier kits. Earlier ContiTech is CT990K1 and Gates is K025453XS. Easy to do.


Here's a Quinton Hazel kit which will suit your car. Albeit with adjustable lower eccentric and the backplate will need to be swapped. At 59 delivered it's a bit of a bargain these days.

I follow this with interest but do not understand everything. So my 2.6 Engine number is 08533230 and both upper and lower idlers are eccentric. Kits I used had those as well. Does this mean that I could use kits with fixed lower idler in the future?

 Yes.  Last one I did had, one fixed and one adjustable,  fit belt from crank in anti-clockwise,  use only double white lines,to line belt on crank,ignore all other belt marks, use locking, alignment tools for rest.
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Enceladus

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #20 on: 10 March 2021, 16:47:08 »

@polilara

Well now.
Apparently all 2.6 & 3.2 V6 left the Ellesmere Port engine plant with lower idler pulleys without eccentric adjustment fitted. The upper idler pulley on the backplate still has the eccentric adjustment. However the tensioner backplate itself is also revised. The belt itself is identical to the earlier model. They're the parts that the ContiTech CT990K2, or the equivalent Gates, kit contains, as a matched set

However it's possible to swap the tensioner and upper idler from an earlier kit onto the newer backplate. And also to use the lower idler with eccentric adjustment in lieu of the fixed. ContiTech CT990K1 has the adjustable lower idler and an older backplate. As does the Gates equivalent and numerous others.

So it might well be that somebody fitted an earlier kit some time in the past to your engine, maybe even a franchised Opel dealer. Earlier timing kits have typically been cheaper and more readily available.

However Contitech CT990K1 is for engine numbers to 08578511 and yours is 08533230, so it might be that the first Y26SE engines did not have the latest timing kit.
« Last Edit: 10 March 2021, 16:51:12 by Enceladus »
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #21 on: 10 March 2021, 17:04:31 »

Right nice one thanks for the input, so would it be best then to fit the belt anti clockwise with the fixed pulley in place if so how do you get the belt on at the other end, just loosen the tensioner i suppose.the kit when it turns up is a gates kit based on the engine number for the later models.Thank any help much appreciated.
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Nick W

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #22 on: 10 March 2021, 18:08:53 »

Right nice one thanks for the input, so would it be best then to fit the belt anti clockwise with the fixed pulley in place if so how do you get the belt on at the other end, just loosen the tensioner i suppose.the kit when it turns up is a gates kit based on the engine number for the later models.Thank any help much appreciated.


You're focusing on the wrong end; it's fiddlier to fit the belt over the fixed pulley. Fiddlier, but not difficult.
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #23 on: 10 March 2021, 19:00:59 »

So fit the belt clockwise and not in an anti clockwise fashion. :-\
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #24 on: 10 March 2021, 19:18:57 »

Fixed pulley = anticlockwise.

So, in order...

1. Crank (secure with wedge to keep it tight on the crank).
2. Fixed pulley.
3. Cam 4.
4. Cam 3.
5. Adjustable pulley set as per instructions.
6. Cam 2.
7. Cam 1.
8. Tensioner.

Then adjust the adjustable pulley followed by the tensioner.

Remove the locks, rotate crank twice, recheck the tension and cam marks with the tool.

Rotate again and recheck the cam marks.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #25 on: 10 March 2021, 20:15:42 »

So fit the belt clockwise and not in an anti clockwise fashion. :-\


No.


But you do have to maintain the tension on the belt as you fit it around the pulley.


Which is fiddly, but not difficult.


If you route the fixed lower pulley clockwise you'll struggle to time either bank.


This will all make sense when you have the bits in your hand.
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gavlar001

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #26 on: 10 March 2021, 20:20:30 »

Perfect thanks mate.I will let you when its done.Because of the fixed pulley setup it doesnt really allow for any adjustment of 3 and 4 i guess the tight run must remain tight to ensure the belts not out i suppose.It had to come off on the old kit the tensioner wasnt loading and unloading which i guess means its must have seized.i just waiting for a water pump and a timing kit its already stripped down with the old belt fully fitted still in place holding it all, ready to fit the new water pump and begin removal and fitting of the new belt.Its sitting at 60 deg before TDC.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #27 on: 10 March 2021, 21:47:02 »

Perfect thanks mate.I will let you when its done.Because of the fixed pulley setup it doesnt really allow for any adjustment of 3 and 4 i guess the tight run must remain tight to ensure the belts not out i suppose.It had to come off on the old kit the tensioner wasnt loading and unloading which i guess means its must have seized.i just waiting for a water pump and a timing kit its already stripped down with the old belt fully fitted still in place holding it all, ready to fit the new water pump and begin removal and fitting of the new belt.Its sitting at 60 deg before TDC.


If you have the belt, there's no reason to wait for the pump. Fit the belt, and replace the water pump when it arrives.


I'd be very surprised if the tensioner has seized and not thrown the belt.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #28 on: 10 March 2021, 22:51:42 »

Thanks Nick, i dont have either yet so ive been doing some other jobs ,Cleaning breathers, Plenum, throttle body, matrix flush, coil pack changed. Still not sure how i will squeeze the belt on, if im fitting it in an anti clockwise direction, surely when i reach the tensioner it wont be able to push over the flanged lip on it as it will be well tight.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2021, 23:04:55 »

If you want Nick to fit it, you could just ask him ::)
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #30 on: 11 March 2021, 10:50:04 »

Its a lot easier than it sounds. I got in the same muddle last year when doing mine (because my new kit had the old style backplate and it took me a while to realise), but have a go at it, check your work carefully, and if your not happy dont start the engine until you are.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #31 on: 15 March 2021, 18:24:40 »

@polilara

Well now.
Apparently all 2.6 & 3.2 V6 left the Ellesmere Port engine plant with lower idler pulleys without eccentric adjustment fitted. The upper idler pulley on the backplate still has the eccentric adjustment. However the tensioner backplate itself is also revised. The belt itself is identical to the earlier model. They're the parts that the ContiTech CT990K2, or the equivalent Gates, kit contains, as a matched set

However it's possible to swap the tensioner and upper idler from an earlier kit onto the newer backplate. And also to use the lower idler with eccentric adjustment in lieu of the fixed. ContiTech CT990K1 has the adjustable lower idler and an older backplate. As does the Gates equivalent and numerous others.

So it might well be that somebody fitted an earlier kit some time in the past to your engine, maybe even a franchised Opel dealer. Earlier timing kits have typically been cheaper and more readily available.

However Contitech CT990K1 is for engine numbers to 08578511 and yours is 08533230, so it might be that the first Y26SE engines did not have the latest timing kit.

Thanks Enceladus, this is interesting. However, I bought this car in January 2004. It was three years old and had only 45 000 km behind. According to Service History only heater matrix was changed as it leaked. I did the first timing belt change to that engine. Used GM kit 5636385 every time since then. Manufacturing date of the car is Jan 10. 2001 so perhaps "early model" with Y26SE? Pretty soon it will have 300 000 km behind and timing belt to be done as I do it after each 60 000 km. If I go to Contitech CT990K1 does it mean that I have to change the back plate, too. Then if I go to K2 I can use the old back plate? I remember someone here recommended here separate parts two idlers, tensioner and belt. Where to buy those? I would like to make it as cheap as possible this time.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #32 on: 15 March 2021, 22:17:47 »

last time i did mine ( 2003 2.6) i bought 2 of the  delco kits on ebay and kept my existing backplate and also used my existing fixed pulley boss for the new pulley .
the backplates shouldnt realy wear out as such( never understood why kits have them ?)
that was 5 years ago and around 5000 miles.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #33 on: 16 March 2021, 06:16:06 »

last time i did mine ( 2003 2.6) i bought 2 of the  delco kits on ebay and kept my existing backplate and also used my existing fixed pulley boss for the new pulley .
the backplates shouldnt realy wear out as such( never understood why kits have them ?)
that was 5 years ago and around 5000 miles.
Alas those AC Delco kits are no longer available. And the prices of Continental or Gates kits have risen. The cheapest option available now is to use this Quinton Hazel kit @ 59.09. Equivalent to Continental CT990K1 and Gates K025453XS. The kit includes the eccentric lower idler roller. Swap the upper idler roller and the tensioner onto the existing backplate, if that already fitted is different.

Also ebay are having one of thier promotions. 15% off ending today. Gets the cost nearer to the AC Delcos.
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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #34 on: 16 March 2021, 17:03:41 »

OK, thanks for all tips.

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #35 on: 16 March 2021, 21:06:01 »

The cheapest option available now is to use this Quinton Hazel kit @ 59.09. Equivalent to Continental CT990K1 and Gates K025453XS. The kit includes the eccentric lower idler roller. Swap the upper idler roller and the tensioner onto the existing backplate, if that already fitted is different.

<Thread hijack apologies> Would that QH belt kit also be good for a '98 3.0 with an 0829* engine number? My notes have it that I'd need a K015453XS or similar, compared to that listing's xref to a K025453XS. I seem to remember reading that a later kit can be used on the earlier engines, but not the other way round...  ???
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Enceladus

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #36 on: 17 March 2021, 00:05:04 »

The cheapest option available now is to use this Quinton Hazel kit @ 59.09. Equivalent to Continental CT990K1 and Gates K025453XS. The kit includes the eccentric lower idler roller. Swap the upper idler roller and the tensioner onto the existing backplate, if that already fitted is different.

<Thread hijack apologies> Would that QH belt kit also be good for a '98 3.0 with an 0829* engine number? My notes have it that I'd need a K015453XS or similar, compared to that listing's xref to a K025453XS. I seem to remember reading that a later kit can be used on the earlier engines, but not the other way round...  ???
V6 engine number to 08300418 requires Contitech CT884K1 or Gates K015453XS.
Engine numbers 08300418 to 08578511 need Contitech CT990K1 or Gates K025453XS.
Engine numbers 08578512 onwards need Contitech CT990K2 or Gates K035453XS. These kits have a fix lower idler with no eccentric. These should be mostly 2.6/3.2 engines.

So far as I know you should be able to fit the QH kit to your engine with no issues. Since the backplate is different then swap the new upper idler roller and the tensioner onto the backplate already on the engine. The lower idler with eccentric should be the same. However the spacer washer is likely different. You'll need to work out if you need the new heavier washer or the old thinner washer. Also the corresponding fixing bolt. I think you use the existing washer, Please don't rely on me, check for yourself. Not sure which bolt, so work it out. Between the new kit and the car you will have the correct bolt.
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Stu.C

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #37 on: 17 March 2021, 07:54:53 »

 :y Thanks for that...
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Stu.C

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Re: Is this correct.
« Reply #38 on: 18 March 2021, 16:07:27 »

As an update for anyone who's still reading and may be interested - the QH kit from the eBay link arrived this morning, shipped direct from Tetrosyl Express (QH's parent) and when opened up has a Gates Powergrip belt and SKF pulleys.  :y
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