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Author Topic: Caravan Mass  (Read 1320 times)

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Nick W

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #75 on: 28 March 2021, 10:36:13 »

Incidentally, I was following a Landcruiser Amazon a few years back when all of a sudden his twin axle decided to give it a savage arse kicking (tail wagging the dog). He was lucky, as was I when it happened to me, so it pays not to become too complacent. It's an experience that I have no desire to repeat, caused by a mixture of being passed at speed by a high sided van, my own speed creeping up and towing 100% ratio. Having towed bangers/hotrods on Brian James/Ivor Williams trailers in my younger days, large four wheel drives aren't exempt from snaking, but they are certainly in a better position to hold it all straight in the first place.  :y



I've recovered a Discovery, four-wheel trailer, and Discovery on their side because of that. Both car and trailer were well maintained, and the driver was experienced with the legal combination. But once you get 3 tonnes wagging on a towbar, you are just along for the ride.


Knowingly towing a combination that is over the legal limit is not an intelligent thing to, no matter how safe it appears to be.
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johnnydog

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #76 on: 28 March 2021, 11:12:48 »

Doesn't alter the fact that you are wrong... and deliberately ignorant of the consequences.

My licence allows me to tow anything (CE), but it doesn't permit exceeding the weight limits shown on the vehicle or trailer, and for good reason. Perhaps yours is a special licence that exempts you from physics ;D

The mention of a Triumph 2000 was one example of a vehicle that I have towed previously with my Omega in response to DG's incorrect statement that the Omega is only able to tow an old Mini , or the trailer itself safely, which as I said was rubbish, relative to its published towing figures. Maybe I should have chosen a vehicle that was just within the weight limits for reference The last time I towed a Triumph on the trailer was around 5 years ago, and as I said previously, I have on the odd occasion towed heavier, but in the main lighter.
I too have seen trailers snaking, especially on downhill gradients when the weight of the loaded trailer is pushing the towing vehicle - not a enviable situation to be in, especially if it occurs whilst they are overtaking you. Caravans on their sides for a variety of reasons. Jackknived lorries even.... I'm sure many have also seen an outfit that immediately made you question the legality of it from how it was performing on the road, and the load being carried.
Many incidents involving trailers are down to the inexperience of the driver, including the inability to react correctly to any potential situation, incorrect loading, towing speeds, and the unsuitability of the towing vehicle, most of which only come with experience.
I agree with most of the observations made, but the Omega is still a superb tow car and I will continue to use it along with my Hyundai Santa Fe for any towing.

If anyone wants to question the rights and wrongs of towing, then one area would be the legalities of the major breakdown / roadside recovery companies that use dollies to recover vehicles......
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Nick W

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #77 on: 28 March 2021, 11:38:07 »


If anyone wants to question the rights and wrongs of towing, then one area would be the legalities of the major breakdown / roadside recovery companies that use dollies to recover vehicles......



They spend a considerable amount of time and money developing those tools. Some of that was spent on lawyers. The RDT(Rapid Deployment Trailers) in the back of an RAC van is a very expensive and well built bit of kit. Some of the design is to reduce the wear and tear on the patrolman, which is why the whole thing is powered.


When lifting just one axle, the car is considered to be a trailer and car, both practically and legally. That is also true if you flat tow a car, which has its own issues. Some of the recovery industry's legal exemptions require any vehicle being recovered to be fully legal; a car without tax, MOT and insurance is a transport job with different rules.


If you think RDTs are bad, don't ever look at towing with a rigid pole. Especially the non-commercial ones. Not to mention using the screw-in 'towing' eyes beloved by car manufacturers.
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johnnydog

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #78 on: 28 March 2021, 12:05:27 »

I have a braked dolly which I use very occasionally, as it is really only suited to front wheel drive vehicles. Rear wheel drive vehicles can be towed depending the distance and transmission, but given the choice, a rear wheel drive vehicle is better in my opinion to be a complete lift.
When I researched dollies before purchase, the information from the few manufacturers of them was that once the dolly is laden with a vehicle, which is secured to the dolly, it becomes a 4 wheel trailer in its own right, and due to its weight being over 750 kg requires brakes on all 'towed' wheels. The trailing wheels of the disabled vehicle cannot be operated whilst being towed, thus rendering the 'trailer' illegal? I believe that some European countries forbid the use of dollies for this very reason, but it has been considered a ''grey' area in the UK. How do the AA and RAC legally use them or get round the fact that the 'trailer' doesn't have operational trailing brakes?
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YZ250

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #79 on: 28 March 2021, 12:32:46 »

......
I agree with most of the observations made, but the Omega is still a superb tow car......

It most certainly is, my 3.2 Estate served me exceptionally proud.  :y  I can still picture the faces of other drivers going up Telegraph Hill (a long rather than a steep climb near Newton Abbot Devon) as I swung out for the overtake with twenty six feet of caravan on the back.  :y  Pulled like a train that thing did, and because they are shite on fuel to start with, you barely notice a couple of mpg lost by towing.  ;D
We used to tow the car trailers with a Land Rover with a Nissan truck engine in it back then. Out-dragging a solo Shogun off the lights with a car trailer, hotrod, tyre rack and tools on the back was a sight to behold back then.  ;D
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #80 on: 28 March 2021, 14:19:28 »

Johnny you can pick as many holes in my statements as you like. They were examples of the sort of weights that might be carried on trailers of a certain weight.

In your three replies about what you tow, you changed the criteria every time but referred to two and three axle car trailers. For any combination, the heavier the trailer, the less weight (load) it can carry. That's simple maths.

The Omega (and any other vehicle) can only tow upto the maximum train weight on the chassis plate.

If you tow a trailer/load greater than that number then you are stupid. And doing so with an Omega when you have access to a better suited (for the combination weight you require) tow vehicle, then you are criminally moronic.

Fudging the numbers and trying to attack my, correct, statement doesn't allow you to tow anything heavier than the plate allows, and every kilo extra in the Omega is a kilo less allowed on the trailer. It's that simple.

It doesn't matter how 'good' a tow car the Omega is, there are similar vehicles designed to tow heavier weights.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2021, 14:25:47 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #81 on: 28 March 2021, 15:34:01 »

I am not going to get into a keyboard argument with you, because you think you are always correct, despite actually being wrong or misinformed on occasions. I know you stated vehicles heavier than, but as an example - an old classic Mini (and I have had countless models of them in my youth) come in just less that 600 kgs and some of the models I had go to around 650kgs depending on the suspension. So at the school I went to, the maths is 740kg + 650kgs = 1390 kgs. Now take 1390 from 1875kgs (your figure) and what do we get (children ::)) - 485kgs. So there is plenty of wiggle room for a full tank of fuel, some tools and some lunch........nearly half a metric tonne..
So there are a lot of bigger vehicles that fall into the permissible weight category  for the Omega - a new Audi A1 for example. The statement that it is only suitable to tow the empty trailer is ridiculous.

So whatever way you want to justify your statement regarding the Omegas towing abilities /vehicles / trailers, just accept once (God forbid) you aren't always right and speak tripe sometimes. And don't go quiet and move onto another topic, effectively burying your head in the sand - accept that sometimes your statements are not always correct.
I have accepted the criticism that I have on occasions exceeds the maw with my TWIN axle trailer (didn't think I have stated I own a 3 axle trailer trailer.....) and I am aware of the implications, and accept everything said where I have been a law breaker, so depending on the gross weight will just revert to the Hyundai for the heavier stuff. After all, the Omega needs looking after it gets older - like us!
Doesn't alter my opinion the Omega IS a brilliant tow car (even for weights over its design weight - sorry just had to drop that one in :y)
Are we still friends then?
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #82 on: 28 March 2021, 15:45:02 »

I wouldn't go that far, but I will concede that I wasn't aware that an early Mini was that light :o

Any load much over a ton is going to pushing the limit of the Omega unless you run a lighter trailer, but even then 1,350kgs isn't that much for newer cars.

Better for the car, and potentially you, to simply use a higher capacity vehicle to begin with.  :y
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #83 on: 28 March 2021, 16:22:36 »

I once towed a broken down short wheel base landy (back in the 70s) with a LWB landy breakdown using an A frame , anything over 10 mph and the towed landy started walking /snaking . Good job it was less than a mile back to workshop!!
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YZ250

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #84 on: 28 March 2021, 16:48:50 »

What is technically the difference of 2.5/2.6 or 3.2/2.6 as both 2.5 and 3.2 have higher allowable mass of a mobile home with brakes (left column), brakes might be same and 2.6 has more power than 2.5. Difficult to understand. Would like to increase in my 2.6 it to 1850kg.

The maximum towing weights shown above for trailers are derived from the vehicles ability to pull away from a dead start on an incline, of a gradient of which I can't remember offhand.  ::)
.........

Edit:
Gradient of 12%, or about a 1 in 8 hill.  :y
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #85 on: 28 March 2021, 18:09:30 »

I once towed a broken down short wheel base landy (back in the 70s) with a LWB landy breakdown using an A frame , anything over 10 mph and the towed landy started walking /snaking . Good job it was less than a mile back to workshop!!

The first time I ever towed with an A frame, I was towing an Omega with my Omega, 60 miles from Wembley to my house. My Omega had a broken rear spring at the time.
It was an interesting drive to say the least.  :D
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #86 on: 28 March 2021, 19:13:17 »

Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm
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Andy B

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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #87 on: 28 March 2021, 19:19:55 »

....
The first time I ever towed with an A frame, I was towing an Omega with my Omega, 60 miles from Wembley to my house. My Omega had a broken rear spring at the time.
It was an interesting drive to say the least.  :D

I'm surprised your drive was 'interesting'  ???
Years ago I towed another Omega with my Omega almost the length of the country with no problem at all ... just had to be aware that the towed car was trying to push me faster when on a down hill section of motorway, so just knocked it down a gear.
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #88 on: 28 March 2021, 19:32:25 »

Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm
In short, to tow more than 1,750kgs you need a car that is plated to tow more.  :y
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Re: Caravan Mass
« Reply #89 on: 28 March 2021, 19:49:28 »

Very interesting discussion, I am reading all of them, now in page 4. Came home today from my caravan which is 950 kg. Idea was not to do anything illegal but get higher weight Type Approved by authoritative, now I understand more. From the plate I found 2190 and 3940kg which means this 1750. Page link is below.


http://www.ajovalo.net/Vaunupainot2.htm

2190 = Gross Vehicle Weight, the limit the vehicle can be loaded to.
3940 = Gross Train Weight, the limit the vehicle and trailer combined (with load) can weigh.
1750 = Maximum Towing Weight, the most weight the vehicle can tow legally.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2021, 19:51:51 by YZ250 »
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