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Author Topic: Debating on OOF  (Read 3379 times)

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FRE07962128

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Debating on OOF
« on: 11 September 2008, 07:04:02 »

I am just one person in this country of 61 million souls, and of the 6 billion worldwide.  I am nothing special, just an individual like everyone else who is struggling daily with the turmoil and strains of everyday life, trying always to make the best of a bad job.

However although I am a very small cog in this fantastically large machine of life, I believe that whilst I am in this plain of existance I have a duty to express my views and opinions on what I, as everyone else does I think, perceive is transpiring around me.  I have been brought up to believe in this right, to defend it doggedly, questioning 'what is', whilst always respecting the view of others even if diametrically opposed to mine.

In the politics of life debate is very healthy if we want our lives, and more importantly those of our children / grandchildren to enjoy a high quality of mortal existance.  Sometimes to achieve this you have to debate topics "against the flow", and place yourself in a position of maybe receiving disdain and ridicule because you are arguing a certain position.

On oof the vast majority of those who regulaly post, which in fact is numerically very tiny compared to the full  membership of the Forum, do enter into the spirit of good healthy debate, using counter arguments that I personally may not always agree with, but always respect if promoted in a fashion that respects the feelings and rights of others.

As has been previously quoted on this site, Voltaire (1694 - 1778) is credited with stating "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (but interestingly was actually first used by S.G. Tallentyre in 1759) Partington, A. editor. (1996) The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations: 4th Edition Oxford: Oxford University Press.

This is indeed my way so we all together in debate, and perhaps later action, can as small cogs can start to make a difference in this imperfect world of ours, or at least make us feel that we have a "voice" in our "free society".

Such was the case in a very lively debate over the last few days, which raised many counter arguments and aired many personal opinions from those that wished to post.  This was very healthy initially, but then the very small minority who resort to personal insult when they oppose an argument, or fail to grasp the full implications of it, start to destroy the debate, with the end result that the Admins 'pull it'.

Suddenly, because I was defending an opinion (and that is all it is as I am human like the rest of you and far from being right all the time ::) ::) ::)) in what I considered to be a worthy debate, start to be accused of being on my "high horse", of being ill, with indeed being "mental", and "aggressive", urgently needing to "get a grip" by the very small majority.  Many others were expressing very worthwhile intelligent counter arguments in a polite and dignified manner, but as usual this small minded band yet again start hurling derogatory comment because I dare to challenge what they see as a "joke", even after I explain how involved and knowlegable I am in the subject matter.

As stated before, I respect counter argument and, as in this case, much of it I actually accept and take on board.  But when insults are thrown, against the rules of this Forum, I do wonder why I should bother to comment on anything on the Forum, or even continue my membership of it.

This I sure has been the case of a number of "newbies" I have seen depart, even within a few hours of joining, in my short time on the OOF, and maybe a 'consideration' made by the aforementioned vast majority of members who are still classed as "newbies" due to not risking posting their observations, opinions, recommendations and advise as should be possible in any healthy democracy for fear of ridicule and insult.

Sorry to disappoint those who would like  to see this strong minded, educated and life experienced muture woman, stop expressing her opinions and observations, along with political statements, and leave the OOF, I  am NOT going to!  I will not be bullied, as I have never allowed myself to be, by a tiny majority, as I will reserve my right to put forth such topics, arguments and the like if I believe it can constructively assist public debate in this world (and this Forum is worldwide!).

What I do not expect is to be insulted in destructrive debate by the small minded minority who find it so difficult to grasp a reasoned viewpoint without resorting to such tactics. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Strongly argue by all means, and that is great :y :y, but do not insult me as you may receive it back, which actually I try not to do, lowering myself to your level, and deeply regret afterwards! >:(

To the vast majority of OOF members I say a big thank you for making my few months of membership so welcoming and providing much interesting debating material, along with the accompanying debate, that certainly has made me appreciate a few more different aspects of life. :y :y :y :y :y :y  

Lizzie
« Last Edit: 11 September 2008, 07:09:51 by FRE07962128 »
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HolyCount

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #1 on: 11 September 2008, 08:10:38 »

Quote
I am just one person in this country of 61 million souls, and of the 6 billion worldwide.  I am nothing special, just an individual like everyone else who is struggling daily with the turmoil and strains of everyday life, trying always to make the best of a bad job.

However although I am a very small cog in this fantastically large machine of life, I believe that whilst I am in this plain of existance I have a duty to express my views and opinions on what I, as everyone else does I think, perceive is transpiring around me.  I have been brought up to believe in this right, to defend it doggedly, questioning 'what is', whilst always respecting the view of others even if diametrically opposed to mine.

In the politics of life debate is very healthy if we want our lives, and more importantly those of our children / grandchildren to enjoy a high quality of mortal existance.  Sometimes to achieve this you have to debate topics "against the flow", and place yourself in a position of maybe receiving disdain and ridicule because you are arguing a certain position.

On oof the vast majority of those who regulaly post, which in fact is numerically very tiny compared to the full  membership of the Forum, do enter into the spirit of good healthy debate, using counter arguments that I personally may not always agree with, but always respect if promoted in a fashion that respects the feelings and rights of others.

As has been previously quoted on this site, Voltaire (1694 - 1778) is credited with stating "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (but interestingly was actually first used by S.G. Tallentyre in 1759) Partington, A. editor. (1996) The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations: 4th Edition Oxford: Oxford University Press.

This is indeed my way so we all together in debate, and perhaps later action, can as small cogs can start to make a difference in this imperfect world of ours, or at least make us feel that we have a "voice" in our "free society".

Such was the case in a very lively debate over the last few days, which raised many counter arguments and aired many personal opinions from those that wished to post.  This was very healthy initially, but then the very small minority who resort to personal insult when they oppose an argument, or fail to grasp the full implications of it, start to destroy the debate, with the end result that the Admins 'pull it'.

Suddenly, because I was defending an opinion (and that is all it is as I am human like the rest of you and far from being right all the time ::) ::) ::)) in what I considered to be a worthy debate, start to be accused of being on my "high horse", of being ill, with indeed being "mental", and "aggressive", urgently needing to "get a grip" by the very small majority.  Many others were expressing very worthwhile intelligent counter arguments in a polite and dignified manner, but as usual this small minded band yet again start hurling derogatory comment because I dare to challenge what they see as a "joke", even after I explain how involved and knowlegable I am in the subject matter.

As stated before, I respect counter argument and, as in this case, much of it I actually accept and take on board.  But when insults are thrown, against the rules of this Forum, I do wonder why I should bother to comment on anything on the Forum, or even continue my membership of it.
This I sure has been the case of a number of "newbies" I have seen depart, even within a few hours of joining, in my short time on the OOF, and maybe a 'consideration' made by the aforementioned vast majority of members who are still classed as "newbies" due to not risking posting their observations, opinions, recommendations and advise as should be possible in any healthy democracy for fear of ridicule and insult.

Sorry to disappoint those who would like  to see this strong minded, educated and life experienced muture woman, stop expressing her opinions and observations, along with political statements, and leave the OOF, I  am NOT going to!  I will not be bullied, as I have never allowed myself to be, by a tiny majority, as I will reserve my right to put forth such topics, arguments and the like if I believe it can constructively assist public debate in this world (and this Forum is worldwide!).

What I do not expect is to be insulted in destructrive debate by the small minded minority who find it so difficult to grasp a reasoned viewpoint without resorting to such tactics. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Strongly argue by all means, and that is great :y :y, but do not insult me as you may receive it back, which actually I try not to do, lowering myself to your level, and deeply regret afterwards! >:(

To the vast majority of OOF members I say a big thank you for making my few months of membership so welcoming and providing much interesting debating material, along with the accompanying debate, that certainly has made me appreciate a few more different aspects of life. :y :y :y :y :y :y  

Lizzie

LIzzie, I won't go into the nitty gritty of all said above, as I am unaware of the full story ( haven't read the whole offending thread yet). But, bottom line ....... Don't leave us !! Your highlighted comments above point that way  :-[

We can all be stubborn souls at times, as well as a little thoughtless. But we are all, afterall, human. I am sure I speak for all of us here ( even the vociferous ones) .... we love having you on our forum.
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Lazydocker

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #2 on: 11 September 2008, 08:30:48 »

Lizzie... I'm not aware of the offending thread at the moment, and if I have ever made comments that have been inappropriate in the aforementioned post then I truly apologise!! I don't think I have but just in case...

Please don't go... You are a valuable asset to the OOF and have some truly fantastic (and sometimes slightly bizarre ;) :D) knowledge which never ceases to amaze me :y :y
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sir moanalot

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #3 on: 11 September 2008, 08:40:04 »

lizzie, there will always be people ready to wind others up (and im usually the worst to react) but dont let them get to you, no doubt if you actually pm them and debate them direct im sure you would have got a different response !
stay on and it will save you walking the streets at night or hanging around at corners becoming a "chav"   !!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #4 on: 11 September 2008, 09:20:50 »

I didn't see the thread in question so I can't comment much in this case. But looking at the bigger picture, I do agree with what Lizzie says.

People are very, very quick to jump on somone if they do something "wrong" and once a couple of people respond in this manner, it becomes (by human nature) a bit of a pile-on. Not saying constructive debate or differences of opinions are not good - they are. But when it retorts to name calling, and in some cases sarcastic comments, it is downright out of order.

I personally need to stop biting to comments that (often rightly) wind me up - because I am naturally quite defensive, and it's something I am self aware of and work on. People are very quick to pick up on such points and use them against you - to the extent that people who you have only properly conversed with online, are telling you they think you won't be able to perform your own job! This is especially bad when they have little or no knowlede of you as a person, or your life history, or qualifications.

There are loads of websites out there for disussing "general" things, so I don't need to be here for that. I am here because I like

A) The amount of decent friends I've met
B) Sharing technical knowledge and skills

Both as important as each other to me, really. But same applies to me as it has to Lizzie:

I will happily accept constructive critisism, and will accept that opinions may not always be the same as mine and will take this on the chin.

What I will not accept, is when this is conveyed (by a small minority) of people, in a rude, sarcastic way - because all this is doing is having a bash, which regardless of guidelines, isn't in the spirit of why we are here.

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Entwood

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #5 on: 11 September 2008, 09:40:52 »

Quote
This was very healthy initially, but then the very small minority who resort to personal insult when they oppose an argument, or fail to grasp the full implications of it, start to destroy the debate, with the end result that the Admins 'pull it'.

Quote
What I will not accept, is when this is conveyed (by a small minority) of people, in a rude, sarcastic way

Please remember .. these are YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of these peoples posts... they might think they are being humorous, cynical, witty, etc etc. and they have every right to post in such a manner.

The problem with T'internet chat is the lack of "expression" or "eye contact" which in normal conversation gives added emphasis to the spoken word. Thus we all "interpret" the written word in our own way.

If we react to someone else's post that is not "written" in a way we like .. its 99.9% certain that the writer will not like our ripost and the slanging match erupts.

We all read, write, interpret and respond in differing fashion. We also are architects of our own downfall, in as much that we will ALL take the p!ss in an obviously humerous thread, but then expect exactly the same written words to be interpreted differently when we decide to be "serious". This is where the lack of expression plays such a big part. OK .. smilies etc can help ... especially to emphasise humour .. but there are no smilies to emphasise "seriousness".

At the end of the day, IMHO, the best reaction is no reaction. If you don't like what is written, or how you interpret a response, then don't answer it. The world will continue to turn regardless, and you will suffer far less stress.

As a few last thoughts ... and this is from past moderating experience in non-car related chat rooms ....  

There are some folks who relish winding others up deliberately - just to get the reactions mentioned.

There are some folks who strongly believe that chat rooms are not the place for long winded heavy discussions - and will always try and divert the subject somehow .. even anyhow at times.

There are some subjects which have very strong, personal links for some folks - they will react  - the OP has no way of knowing this will happen - we have no idea of the personal circumstances of most members.

At the end of the day .. it's supposed to be a fun, enjoyable, pastime. lets just all "Live and Let Live"

Just my opinions .. nothing else .. :)
« Last Edit: 11 September 2008, 09:41:06 by entwood »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #6 on: 11 September 2008, 09:47:31 »

Heres some solution to express your states

serious  [serious]   [\serious]
fight      [fight]   [\fight]
relax     [relax]  [\relax]

etc etc... ;D  :y




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sir moanalot

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #7 on: 11 September 2008, 09:55:06 »

well said entwood !  :y
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #8 on: 11 September 2008, 09:58:17 »

Quote
Quote
This was very healthy initially, but then the very small minority who resort to personal insult when they oppose an argument, or fail to grasp the full implications of it, start to destroy the debate, with the end result that the Admins 'pull it'.

Quote
What I will not accept, is when this is conveyed (by a small minority) of people, in a rude, sarcastic way

Please remember .. these are YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of these peoples posts... they might think they are being humorous, cynical, witty, etc etc. and they have every right to post in such a manner.

The problem with T'internet chat is the lack of "expression" or "eye contact" which in normal conversation gives added emphasis to the spoken word. Thus we all "interpret" the written word in our own way.

If we react to someone else's post that is not "written" in a way we like .. its 99.9% certain that the writer will not like our ripost and the slanging match erupts.

We all read, write, interpret and respond in differing fashion. We also are architects of our own downfall, in as much that we will ALL take the p!ss in an obviously humerous thread, but then expect exactly the same written words to be interpreted differently when we decide to be "serious". This is where the lack of expression plays such a big part. OK .. smilies etc can help ... especially to emphasise humour .. but there are no smilies to emphasise "seriousness".

At the end of the day, IMHO, the best reaction is no reaction. If you don't like what is written, or how you interpret a response, then don't answer it. The world will continue to turn regardless, and you will suffer far less stress.

As a few last thoughts ... and this is from past moderating experience in non-car related chat rooms ....  

There are some folks who relish winding others up deliberately - just to get the reactions mentioned.

There are some folks who strongly believe that chat rooms are not the place for long winded heavy discussions - and will always try and divert the subject somehow .. even anyhow at times.

There are some subjects which have very strong, personal links for some folks - they will react  - the OP has no way of knowing this will happen - we have no idea of the personal circumstances of most members.

At the end of the day .. it's supposed to be a fun, enjoyable, pastime. lets just all "Live and Let Live"

Just my opinions .. nothing else .. :)

Very valid points there Nige - perception accounts for a heck of a lot, in online communities.

Your point that people have a right to post in a sarcastic manner is again largly a perception thing, and yes if there is no intent to insult then I agree people can post how they wish - providing it's not clearly offensive.

Anyway - onwards and upwards :y
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Entwood

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #9 on: 11 September 2008, 10:07:32 »

Wonderfull proof here of EXACTLY what I was trying to say ....  :) :)  if I interpret his response correctly ...... (big IF) ..

from me

Quote
they might think they are being humorous, cynical, witty, etc etc. and they have every right to post in such a manner.

from James

Quote
Your point that people have a right to post in a sarcastic manner is again largly a perception thing,...

I was trying to say that "they think ....... they have the right"

James has interpreted it as  "I (Entwood) think they have the right"

subtley different .. down to interpretation... do I now react and tell James he's putting words in my mouth and I never said that etc etc a start a slanging match that has nowt to do with the thread ?? or do I say to myself .. "dammit ... didn't express that too well ... must put up another post and explain it better" .. or do I say "sod it" and let it pass ....

Thank you James for .. unwittingly no doubt ... helping me get the point across better ..  :)

but then again .. did you mean what I think you mean .......  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
« Last Edit: 11 September 2008, 10:14:00 by entwood »
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #10 on: 11 September 2008, 10:14:45 »

Quote
Wonderfull proof here of EXACTLY what I was trying to say ....  :) :)  if I interpret his response correctly ...... (big IF) ..

from me

Quote
they might think they are being humorous, cynical, witty, etc etc. and they have every right to post in such a manner.

from James

Quote
Your point that people have a right to post in a sarcastic manner is again largly a perception thing,...

I was trying to say that "they think ....... they have the right"

James has interpreted it as  "I (Entwood) think they have the right"

subtley different .. down to interpretation... do I now react and tell James he's putting words in my mouth and I never said that etc etc a start a slanging match that has nowt to do with the thread ?? or do I say to myself .. "dammit ... didn't express that too well ... must put up another post and explain it better" .. or do I say "sod it" and let it pass ....

Thank you James for .. unwittingly no doubt ... helping me get the point across better ..  :)

but then again .. did you mean what I think you mean .......  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

I'm confused already - pub, anyone? ;D
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FRE07962128

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #11 on: 11 September 2008, 11:17:37 »

Thanks for ALL your supportive and/or constructive counter points made in response to my thread. :y

Yes, I will admit once I feel passionate about something I need to discuss it in the open to establish really what the situation is and my true understanding of it, which puts some people on guard as I have been told to my face that I have a "very strong presence" and are forceful in my arguments, although (I hope! ::) ::) ::)) never too insulting! :D :D ;)

Therefore when I am feeling so passionate I may well commit the sin of perceiving in something that is being said to me to be a negative comment aimed at me personally, so Entwood you are dead right mate in your thoughts on this one!! :y :y ;) ;)

Anyway I am not going to go on and on with this one and upset even the majority of you who I deeply respect!! ;) ;)  I just want to say thanks for your advice and guidance on this and on many other occasions (including of course car matters!) which I highly value, which DOES also make remaining a member of the OOF worthwhile; you are a great bunch!! (I am starting to cry now with emotion, but that is me as well! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(.

Thanks all, Holy Count, Cem, SirMoanalot, Lazydocker, Entwood and James and please try to keep me on the straight and narrow!!:y :y :y  Yes James owards and upwards for us all eh?! :y :y :y :y
« Last Edit: 11 September 2008, 11:25:43 by FRE07962128 »
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LJay

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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #12 on: 11 September 2008, 12:28:27 »

Having spent the last week watching, reading and promising myself that i would stay out of things I feel that i need to comment on this thread!
Lizzie- You come accross as being self righteous and hard done to! Yet in last nights deleted thread you resorted to throwing insults over something that i said 2 weeks ago. this was in response to something that jimbob said! Indeed i was not even online, so why drag me into it? How dare you? Then claim to be so upset by it all!
We are married, yes, but two very different people with our own views and opinions, interesting we hold similar opinions of you isn't it?
You are the very reason that i chose to walk away. You may not like being bullied but you do a good job of bullying!
A friend commented on my lack of posting and asked 'She isn't staying away, why are you?'
Your holier than though attitude sucks! You are not the only one to have been there, done that, you know!

Admin I apologise for the upset this will cause, but felt she needed telling!

To coin a now well used phrase 'GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE' and come into the real world!
You certainly give me the impression that we are beneath you so why debate with us?????????
« Last Edit: 11 September 2008, 16:28:57 by LJay »
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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #13 on: 11 September 2008, 12:31:05 »

I enjoyed that debate the other day - didn't see where it went (i was looking forward to catching up on it at work!)- sorry to hear it descended into insults  :'( :'(

as usual - your opinion was well thought-out and eloquently argued - still dont agree tho   ;) ;)

most forums abandon reasoned debate in favour of insults at the first opportunity - i'd hate that to become the norm here


and Lizzie - keep giving us all food for thought  :y :y :y :y
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Re: Debating on OOF
« Reply #14 on: 11 September 2008, 12:34:39 »

rearrange these words to form a common sentence. kitchen  heat  you  if out stand get can't the of. :y ;D ;D
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