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[Kevin Wood]

There are many small business units in and around the country which have a pair of 16 cylinder (Ship engines) inside them, they are all heavily soundproofed and run on natural gas, these things are dotted around at intermediate points between main subs on the grid, they have one running at all times as a trickle into the grid, when the demand increases they can kick in the second generator to give some capacity.  They don't tell you about these computer controlled, extremely efficient things which have the "Perfect Burn" 17.5:1 air/gas...  They only seem to paint the grim picture, it's as though they're trying to send us back to the 70's.

I don't doubt that they're efficient compared to car engines but a piston engine will never get close to a fossil fuel fired steam turbine or gas turbine power station due to the amount of waste heat that is a necessary by-product of the process. Unless you use the heat in a CHP type project you have something that's useful as a standby due to the quick startup times, but not something that can compete on cost or "green-ness" with the larger scale generating stations.

Even domestic and commercial CHP systems installed in buildings where the waste heat is used are of only marginally greater efficiency compared to large scale electricity generation, which means that a small increment in the efficiency of the latter, or the addition of some renewable generation to the grid, and such systems become environmentally unfriendly.

When I was at school I did a week's work experience at a film studios. I couldn't help but notice that every evening the engineers would remove everything from the shelves above their benches and place them in the floor.

I came in one morning to find my cup had dropped off the shelf and smashed. One of the guys took be down into the basement where there were 2 rather great ship engines thrumming away. Apparently they were installed to provide a suitable power supply for the lighting in the early days and never got replaced by grid power. The vibrations they sent through the building were to blame for the demise of my cup.

Kevin

[Marks DTM Calib]

There are many small business units in and around the country which have a pair of 16 cylinder (Ship engines) inside them, they are all heavily soundproofed and run on natural gas, these things are dotted around at intermediate points between main subs on the grid, they have one running at all times as a trickle into the grid, when the demand increases they can kick in the second generator to give some capacity.  They don't tell you about these computer controlled, extremely efficient things which have the "Perfect Burn" 17.5:1 air/gas...  They only seem to paint the grim picture, it's as though they're trying to send us back to the 70's.

I don't doubt that they're efficient compared to car engines but a piston engine will never get close to a fossil fuel fired steam turbine or gas turbine power station due to the amount of waste heat that is a necessary by-product of the process. Unless you use the heat in a CHP type project you have something that's useful as a standby due to the quick startup times, but not something that can compete on cost or "green-ness" with the larger scale generating stations.

Even domestic and commercial CHP systems installed in buildings where the waste heat is used are of only marginally greater efficiency compared to large scale electricity generation, which means that a small increment in the efficiency of the latter, or the addition of some renewable generation to the grid, and such systems become environmentally unfriendly.

When I was at school I did a week's work experience at a film studios. I couldn't help but notice that every evening the engineers would remove everything from the shelves above their benches and place them in the floor.

I came in one morning to find my cup had dropped off the shelf and smashed. One of the guys took be down into the basement where there were 2 rather great ship engines thrumming away. Apparently they were installed to provide a suitable power supply for the lighting in the early days and never got replaced by grid power. The vibrations they sent through the building were to blame for the demise of my cup.

Kevin

The key thing is that these are available to supliment the base load under peek conditions.....

Here is the turbines where I used to work:

http://www.multimap.com/s/FSnMjJYD

Bloody great big things, think they were spey engines are something huge!

[Kevin Wood]

The key thing is that these are available to supliment the base load under peek conditions.....

Here is the turbines where I used to work:

http://www.multimap.com/s/FSnMjJYD

Bloody great big things, think they were spey engines are something huge!

Agreed. And such things will become more important as unpredictable renewables start to form a greater proportion of generating capacity, as will dynamic demand control and pumped storage.

I have also heard that standby power generation infrastructure from organisations such as water boards, etc. is attached to the grid so that it can help out during times of peak demand. Makes sense that it does, rather than sit idle most of the time, I guess.

The difficult question is that the political push to build more wind farms and other renewables, will prompt greater use of short term capacity to cover the periods when the wind isn't blowing. Short term capacity is much less efficient than the large fossil fuelled power stations that cover the base load. Now, is that better or worse for the environment than just binning the renewables and letting the base load increase very slightly?

Kevin

[Marks DTM Calib]

The key thing is that these are available to supliment the base load under peek conditions.....

Here is the turbines where I used to work:

http://www.multimap.com/s/FSnMjJYD

Bloody great big things, think they were spey engines are something huge!

Agreed. And such things will become more important as unpredictable renewables start to form a greater proportion of generating capacity, as will dynamic demand control and pumped storage.

I have also heard that standby power generation infrastructure from organisations such as water boards, etc. is attached to the grid so that it can help out during times of peak demand. Makes sense that it does, rather than sit idle most of the time, I guess.

The difficult question is that the political push to build more wind farms and other renewables, will prompt greater use of short term capacity to cover the periods when the wind isn't blowing. Short term capacity is much less efficient than the large fossil fuelled power stations that cover the base load. Now, is that better or worse for the environment than just binning the renewables and letting the base load increase very slightly?

Kevin

As per above link, that standby station was connected to the grid (by suitable isolation etc) and it to was a private holding.....

Cant recall the generator capability but it was many many megawatts!

[Marks DTM Calib]

Just found it in this doc.........5.5MW oil powered!

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/BCD86AB9-0DDD-4C5D-8179-F3EC9750699B/17473/Sys2007_embedded_and_renewable_generation.pdf

Its surprising how many small power units there are about!

[Martin_1962]

(and the steam railway preservation movement who require good quality Yorkshire steam coal!!   )  

What about Welsh steam coal?

[Gaffers]

I think all this noise coming out of governments about carbon footprint, etc is complete tripe.

I would be intregued to find out how much of these 'Green taxes' have gone directly to Green issues or projects.  The eternal synic in me says not all of it if even a significant part.....

Indeed. they pay lip service to it when they want to raise taxes and use it as an excuse not to invest in the national infrastructure. Other than that, they couldnt care less.

Why dont we do things that could actually make a difference, the glass recycling system here in Germany works fantastically.  You buy a plastic crate of beer full of glass bottle, you pay a deposit on it all (couple of euros) and then when done you bring it back and a machine reads it you get a coupon towards you next crate or even the money back.  We also have the Yellow bag system, standardised all over the country, where all the recyclables go.  It is unlimited so it normal rubbish with communial large bins in the road.  They never get full.  Also the packaging here is much less than in the UK.  Most of it is just about necessary.

Just like the Corona bottles we used to collect as kids for the 5p deposit...

The problem is, people in the UK, government included, moan about the environment from one side of the fence or the other, but never actually DO anything. If people dumped unnecessary packaging at Sainsbury's before walking out of the door, or stopped buying drinks in plastic bottles, it'd stop pretty soon. Maybe that'll start happening if councils start chipping bins but unless there's a big stick hovering over them, most people un the UK are oblivious to the environment in their day to day lives, IMHO.

Kevin

If you ever served here you'll know that it is law here. End of....  

And as the biggest sceptic of global warming I dont mind doing this recycling palarva as long as it is clear what I can and cannot recycle.  I dont want rubbish strewn all over the place.  Lets reuse what we can  

[Marks DTM Calib]

Germany do have it sorted on the bottle front, most are deposit bottles with big areas in the car parks of the large supermarkets where they are returned and the deposit refunded.

Much more efficient than smashing them up and re-processing them.

[Kevin Wood]

Much more efficient than smashing them up and re-processing them.

Agreed. Making bottles from sand doesn't seem any worse than making them from fragments of broken glass of mixed colour, with the odd bit of stale beer and sticky label thrown in. Yet in NE Hants we have an entire door to dorr waste collection round in a rather great diesel truck dedicated to collecting fragments of broken glass for delivery to a depot in Southampton (35 miles away).

And as the biggest sceptic of global warming I dont mind doing this recycling palarva as long as it is clear what I can and cannot recycle.  I dont want rubbish strewn all over the place.  Lets reuse what we can

Me too. They're different issues entirely in my view. Not re-using glass bottles in favour of strewing plastic everywhere where it will stay for decades to come just doesn't make sense when we used to have a system of recycling that worked.

Unless, of course we incinerate the plastic to use the energy locked into it, but then the nimbys won't let anyone build the incinerator.

Kevin

[Lizzie_Zoom]

(and the steam railway preservation movement who require good quality Yorkshire steam coal!!   )  

What about Welsh steam coal?

When I was on the Mid-Hants Railway Martin they always spoke of good quality Yorkshire steam coal, so I always quote that one!!

Nothing against the Welsh, who I worked amoungst for many years, I hasten to add!

[Kevin Wood]

(and the steam railway preservation movement who require good quality Yorkshire steam coal!!   )  

What about Welsh steam coal?

When I was on the Mid-Hants Railway Martin they always spoke of good quality Yorkshire steam coal, so I always quote that one!!

Nothing against the Welsh, who I worked amoungst for many years, I hasten to add!

Someone told me they're on Russian coal now.

Kevin

[Lizzie_Zoom]

(and the steam railway preservation movement who require good quality Yorkshire steam coal!!   )  

What about Welsh steam coal?

When I was on the Mid-Hants Railway Martin they always spoke of good quality Yorkshire steam coal, so I always quote that one!!

Nothing against the Welsh, who I worked amoungst for many years, I hasten to add!

Someone told me they're on Russian coal now.

Kevin

Oh my goodness Kevin now that is bad!  

It means along with gas and oil supplies we even have my lovely Watercress Line using imported coal!  I bet a lot of it is no more than dust, which is what I experienced when the quality Yorkshire steam coal was in short supply!  Very bad for firing and producing the required steam!!

[Martin_1962]

Railways designed their locos for certain coals hence the different designs of fireboxes

[miggy]

Once again, more dire warnings about our upcoming energy shortage. Indeed, from this site:

http://web.mac.com/sinfonia1/Global_Warming_Politics/A_Hot_Topic_Blog/Entries/2008/10/2_The_Energy_Crunch_Cometh.html

"The blackouts could begin as early as the week commencing November 10, for which the National Grid has warned “that the margin of spare capacity could be as slim as 0.8 gigawatts - the equivalent of one mid-sized coal-fired power station or the electricity consumed by a city the size of Nottingham.”

Will our government, or the"government in waiting" please make this issue a top priority?

FFS, why the dithering?  

Thats what they do best

[chrisdb]

In the meantime a good start would be to ask people to use less!! Switch off lights(not just in homes but in offices at night) when not in use, unplug transformers for charging mobiles, switch off TV's instead of leaving them on standby etc. It would be consumately easy to save 10% of daily use within a week. But wait, that wouldn't sit well with a society used to conspicious consumption.

Problem is, although the nut munchers like to bang on about mobile phone chargers and TVs on standby these actually take bu66er all power. Less than a watt in most cases (unless it happens to be Murdoch's Gay set top boxes that stay on all night using 20+watts so they can "phone home" ).

It's what we've come to expect as the basic things in life that take the majority of the power. Heating, hot water, water supply, street lighting, sanitation, fresh and frozen food, having any sort of industrial / commercial activity.

It's a little less easy to do without these. Granted savings could be made in some areas. Many offices are lit and air conditioned throughout the night, PCs left on, etc. Data centres take a lot of power and are, in some cases, half full of idle machines.

A marginal saving won't get away from the fact that our electricity supply network is decaying and needs investment.

We will, literally, have to wait until the lights go out, I suspect.

Kevin

Heating?? You still using yours? I sleep with clothes on now - can't afford Eon's £350 per quarter anymore!