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[supermop]

I'm with Martin on the pro-nuclear idea. I think the activists are shooting themselves in the foot on campaigning against it, since there are no viable alternatives apart from fossil fuels. And they hate those even more. If they had it their way, we'd be back in the stoneage. Anway... where were we... oh yes, Fusion research.

All hopes are pinned on the ITER reactor, thats being thrown together in France. Fusion energy generation has been succesfully tested already using a tokamak reactor, but it requires more energy in than what it puts out. The ITER reactor hopes to be the first ever fusion reactor to output more energy than it consumes.

Info here: http://www.iter.org/a/index_nav_4.htm

Now back to the Prius

[miked]

Now back to the Prius

They are deadly if your a pedestrian in a car park

[Nickbat]

You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.

Its what I do for a living so I have some strong opinions on the subject

In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations

Very true, some in Wales as well.  Energy stored in these facilities can be converted very quickly to electricity if required.  Still require electricity to pump the water back up though

Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and environmentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.

My fundamental issue with electric vehicles, they still need charging which still requires electricity generation which still involves the use of nuclear of fossil fuels.

However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads.

The newest station is Drax (coal fired) and that was built in the late eighties (twenty years ago).  Most are more like fourth or fifty years old.  Generators have strived to improve thermal efficiencies of their stations and some work has been carried out in this area (nothing dramatic however).  The other area of focus for coal stations is in emissions and there have been dramatic improvements in this area.

Coal fired units can be brought on load within an hour which is actually very fast.  Nuclear units take longer (3 days).  Most coal stations provide frequency response as well as base loading.  In fact, the majority of the frequency sensitive units connected to the grid are coal fired.  Running regimes differ between generators, some have long term agreements in place and may well base load. Others take advantage in the fluctuations in the wholesale electricity price and largely two shift their units.  The message is that coal is flexible.

Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.

Less demand means less generation, fossil, nuclear or renewable.  Nuclear is used to base load and is not frequency sensitive, so in reality it would result in a reduction in generation from the coal/gas fleet.

I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."

In terms of the UK, we manage the frequency of our grid, we act literally as an 'Island' and we are not influenced by the European grid.


Interesting article can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn163.pdf (its a little old but still relevant)

The majority of the European generation is in fact Nuclear.  Their grid is considerably larger than ours and control of their distribution is across countries and is therefore more complex.

As for Economy 7,  market forces apply.  Less demand during the night time period results in a drop in wholesale electricity prices which is where the Economy 7 bit comes in.  Its for this very reason that the Nuclear generators really suffered when the government introduced a different way of trading electricity some years back.  The drop in wholesale prices was so dramatic that through night times and weekends, it cost the Nuclear generators more to generate it than they could sell it for, and because they are in-flexible they had to ride it out.  Its why the government had to step in respect to the Nuclear generators.

Interesting thread, though!  

It is an interesting topic and the challenges facing this country within the next 10 to 15 years with respect to our electricity supply are not insignificant.  In my view, Nuclear and clean coal technologies are the only answer.

Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!

[Del Boy]

Makes me hate them even more

[miked]

Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!

Thats OK, I like a good debate on this subject, especially with one of those greenies who hand out leaflets in town centres.  The wife just walks away in embarrassment

[Martin_1962]

Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!

Thats OK, I like a good debate on this subject, especially with one of those greenies who hand out leaflets in town centres.  The wife just walks away in embarrassment

Sounds like fun!

[omegaV6CD]

Aviation is todays major contributor of pollution, so the whole theory about green cars is a con unfortunately. I read somewhere that UK people being environmental concious contribute to just 1% of the overall pollution, so you can see how smalll the car slice in that pie chart is.

[miked]

Sounds like fun!

She doesn't think so!  

We all demand more and more electricity.  Wind farms, solar, wave, energy crops all have their contribution to make.  They are not he answer in the short term.  Drax is 7% of the UK demand, 4000MW, the largest wind turbine is about 3MW... Do the calcs.  Wave and solar are even less.

Whilst we can make every effort to contribute to the Collective (star trek fans start getting excited!), the starting point is getting America to start taking the issue seriously.  Then its supporting the third / secondary world countries to understand their responsibilities and aiding in their developments.

A long way down the list its getting Mr. Joe Bloggs to drive a Toyota hybrid car around the UK, a car which isn't particularly fuel economic, contains many nasty chemicals in its batteries and which hasn’t got a very good longevity. At least they think they are reducing their carbon foot print which is what its all about.

I have a mate who has a Maserati Quattroporte and a Prius, thinking one cancels out the other  :-?

Lets stop burning gas in power stations at 65% efficiency, lets burn it in domestic boilers at 98% efficiency.  Lets invest in clean coal technologies (about 500 years of coal resources left) and lets invest in nuclear technologies (no greenhouse emissions at all!)

[Taxi_Driver]

You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.

As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! .
    

They'll be banning smoking in public places next......

Shirley not AA  

tho interesting thread....

I once switched to not economy7 but a tariff that was cheaper between 7pm and 7am devised by a leccy company....i was careful and never cooked before 7pm.....and put dishwasher/washing on after 7pm......bloody bill still went up tho.....so i had it taken out and reverted back to normal meter.....

im a 'bit' green and have low energy bulbs fitted where possible....and am working on a project that will hopefully power all my floodlights outside either by windpower or solar.....mind you cost me more than the leccy bill!

i thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to europe/etc  when over producing.....or am i wrong there?

[Auto Addict]

I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming

[TheBoy]

I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming

[Taxi_Driver]

I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming

 

[Eddy Matthews]

A fascinating subject.....

My other passion (apart from cars) is paddle steamers - I don't know if this is true, but on a TV documentary last year about marine powerplants, it quoted the following figures:

Large Petrol engines: Average 15% efficient
Large Diesel engines: Average 20% efficient
The steam engines in the paddler "Waverley": 35% efficient

And the Waverleys engines were built more than 50 years ago, and she's still going strong! Now just imagine if steam engines had another 50 years of development!!

Regards
Eddy

[miked]

[I thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to Europe/etc  when over producing.....or am I wrong there?

Actually, in the UK when demand reduces, generation is taken off-line.  There is never over generation.  In winter, especially last winter, the UK had, at times, all of its oil fired generation on load, there was nothing left!!!, nobody realises just how desperate it got.  Taking into account the cost of oil at that point, it shows just how close the UK came to brown outs.  There was a program recently which told of the unstableness of gas supply.  A spokeswoman for a glass manufacturer was unable to buy gas.  The price was rising so quickly, no one was willing to sell her it as it would have been worth so much more at the end of the transaction.

[Martin_1962]

A fascinating subject.....

My other passion (apart from cars) is paddle steamers - I don't know if this is true, but on a TV documentary last year about marine powerplants, it quoted the following figures:

Large Petrol engines: Average 15% efficient
Large Diesel engines: Average 20% efficient
The steam engines in the paddler "Waverley": 35% efficient

And the Waverleys engines were built more than 50 years ago, and she's still going strong! Now just imagine if steam engines had another 50 years of development!!

Regards
Eddy

I know of rail traction Diesels at 50% fuel to rail - and they are British!

Mirlees & Brush