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[Dishevelled Den]

The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction.  There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.

When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.

Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months".   If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity.

A man offered up by his own people Ms Z.  The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.

Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.

I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.

The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.

I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom   No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice.  Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.

As I think we  have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986.  Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.

Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.  This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations.  It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.

I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed?   More innocent lives will be lost in  acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie

both planes

Forgive me Ms Z, I edited my original remarks from 'this plane' to 'this earthly plane' as I was speaking in the religious sense - sorry for the confusion



 has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.

...both in the conviction and subsequent release of this man - in my view

Kenny MacAskill as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary responsible for Justice was merely the facilitator for these clandestine groups through discrete, but never the less very clear, direction from Whitehall.

The integrity if the Scottish system of government came second to the national interest of the UK in this matter I would suggest.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

If you read this brillliant article by Richard Littlejohn about Mandelson,you may well be left with the suspicion that he went on holiday with Gaddafis son and when he got back he rang up Scotland and told them to let the lockerbie bomber out.
He was convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity the UK has ever seen and should have spent the rest of his life in prison.If his conviction was unsafe,it should have been proven so at appeal,that is due process.What happened today makes a mockery of justice,agin.

EDIT.It was not an act of war between two warring countries,it was purely an act of terrorism ,they are far from the same thing.Apart from anything else,rules of engagement in war forbid the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.The only targets in this act were innocent civilians.

How about Albs the innocent civilians on the Iranian airliner, or the innocent civilians killed during the F111 Libyan bombing raid, all enacted by the USA? 

I will not defend terrorism, but are our own states innocent of such acts?  NO is the answer, and Lockerbie, no matter how unpalatable it was and still is (yes for me as well!) was an act of retailation by countries attacked by the US. We in the west may see it as terrorism, but 'on the other side' it is seen as fighting for their freedom.  If you sow the wind..................

Let all our nations now go for jaw, jaw, jaw and not war, war, war as Churchill recommended.  

[Dishevelled Den]

If you read this brillliant article by Richard Littlejohn about Mandelson,you may well be left with the suspicion that he went on holiday with Gaddafis son and when he got back he rang up Scotland and told them to let the lockerbie bomber out.
He was convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity the UK has ever seen and should have spent the rest of his life in prison.If his conviction was unsafe,it should have been proven so at appeal,that is due process.What happened today makes a mockery of justice,agin.

EDIT.It was not an act of war between two warring countries,it was purely an act of terrorism ,they are far from the same thing.Apart from anything else,rules of engagement in war forbid the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.The only targets in this act were innocent civilians.

Hey boy!!!!! - you talkin' 'bout my mate there?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction.  There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.

When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.

Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months".   If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity.

A man offered up by his own people Ms Z.  The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.

Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.

I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.

The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.

I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom   No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice.  Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.

As I think we  have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986.  Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.

Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.  This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations.  It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.

I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed?   More innocent lives will be lost in  acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie

both planes

Forgive me Ms Z, I edited my original remarks from 'this plane' to 'this earthly plane' as I was speaking in the religious sense - sorry for the confusion



 has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.

...both in the conviction and subsequent release of this man - in my view

Kenny MacAskill as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary responsible for Justice was merely the facilitator for these clandestine groups through discrete, but never the less very clear, direction from Whitehall.

The integrity if the Scottish system of government came second to the national interest of the UK in this matter I would suggest.

I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'; it has always happened throughout modern history, will continue to take place, and certainly did transpire in this case.

This, I suggest, proves my case.  This one man was never the subject of the real situation; it was states jockeying for advantage and political satisfaction, with the feelings of the deceased's relatives a last consideration.  The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east.  Only then can the circumstances of Lockerbie be understood, along with the politics since.

[albitz]

Link to Mandleson article now added to original post,I forgot the first time.
Its well worth reading.

[Dishevelled Den]

I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'; it has always happened throughout modern history, will continue to take place, and certainly did transpire in this case.

This, I suggest, proves my case.  This one man was never the subject of the real situation; it was states jockeying for advantage and political satisfaction, with the feelings of the deceased's relatives a last consideration.  The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east.  Only then can the circumstances of Lockerbie be understood, along with the politics since.

I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'

Thank you Ms Z


The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east.

Within the intelligence community the time moves very slowly and matters of interest from long in the past can have a clear and present bearing on those currently being considered. 

The context of any operational matter will however ultimately reflect the level of importance placed upon it by the Security establishment, and not necessarily by the Sovereign Government,

[Lioned]

megrahi's conviction was always a bit suspect and clearly he never acted alone.Scapegoat or not he was found guilty of killing 270 people,and should have spent the rest of his days behind bars under scottish jurisdiction.
He may well have prostate cancer,no one can say how much longer he has to live.
My father in law was diagnosed with prostate cancer 10 years ago and it had spread to the bones,yet he is still alive today (though not at all well now) 10 years later.
Where is the compassion for the victims and their families,as usual there is none.
Our pathetic prime minister once again has nothing to say,he cannot incriminate himself.Brown had it in his control to veto this miscarriage of justice.
Lets wait and see if the 'trade deals' that have been done behind the scenes have  feathered the nest of the 'Scottish mafia' leader and his mates.

[albitz]

From the horses mouth...............
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1209651/Gordon-Brown-pressure-Lockerbie-bomber-Gaddafi-son-reveals-prisoner-swap-deal-WAS-linked-oil.html

[Lioned]

Once again our politicians hold us, and in particular the grieving relatives, in complete contempt as they bargain for their own futures.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

From the horses mouth...............
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1209651/Gordon-Brown-pressure-Lockerbie-bomber-Gaddafi-son-reveals-prisoner-swap-deal-WAS-linked-oil.html

Would you trust Saif Gaddafi as much or more than you would trust any politician, especially one linked to a dictator? :-/ :-/

[albitz]

wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.

Fair enough Albs!

However he may want to make Britain look stupid and a double crossing entity.  He may very well be seeking political power for when his father goes

[albitz]

They seem keen to have good relations with the UK these days,since Bliar talked them into letting BP go in and drill all their oil.
I would have thought they would want to see Gormless stay in his job as long as possible,as he is so obviously corrupt and swayable,the kind of politician who ,I would imagine suits them just fine.

[Dishevelled Den]

wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.

..as Ms Z says Albs it's a fair enough point you make, however Junior has quite a lot to gain by muddying the waters in this matter.

Much diplomatic leverage can be gained by his taking this position, in many cases valuable bargaining points can be accrued through controversy caused by malevolent allegation.

The Libyan leadership is quite adept at this kind of stunt and it generally results in weak and unconvincing governments - such as the one we have here - trying to accommodate the troublesome party by giving more than they should, simply to mute the party and any headline making material they may put out.

I state this while satisfied that it's more than likely that the Foreign Office had cocked the process up due to the usual unwelcome and incompetent interference from Downing Street.

[albitz]

I think the whole episode (from when B.liar went and met Gaddafi,to Browns disappearing act last week)stinks to high heaven of a typical new Lie bore dirty and corrupt deal.I would need very convincing evidence to change my mind.The fact that Mandy met this bloke while he was on holiday makes it an almost certainty in my book.