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[Nickbat]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

Do you have evidence of that? I would have thought that Brown would want to stay at the helm (steering towards the iceberg) for as long as possible. 

[Vamps]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

Do you have evidence of that? I would have thought that Brown would want to stay at the helm (steering towards the iceberg) for as long as possible. 

Yep.....

[hotel21]

I still say this is a road initially travelled by those wearing coats of many colours.  Once the flood gates were opened in suggesting joining the EEC/EU it was an inevitable outcome, sadly......

[Dishevelled Den]

I still say this is a road initially travelled by those wearing coats of many colours.  Once the flood gates were opened in suggesting joining the EEC/EU it was an inevitable outcome, sadly......

I'm happy to agree with you on that H.  We presently bear witness to the end game.

[Nickbat]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

Do you have evidence of that? I would have thought that Brown would want to stay at the helm (steering towards the iceberg) for as long as possible. 

Yep.....

Well, I accept your word on that, Vamps. I thought GB would hold on longer, especially with the December Copenhagen Climate Agreement coming up. Also, I read a rumour that he was about to try and foist the euro on us before he left office, but I think that is BS.

[Vamps]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

Do you have evidence of that? I would have thought that Brown would want to stay at the helm (steering towards the iceberg) for as long as possible. 

Yep.....

Well, I accept your word on that, Vamps. I thought GB would hold on longer, especially with the December Copenhagen Climate Agreement coming up. Also, I read a rumour that he was about to try and foist the euro on us before he left office, but I think that is BS.

If I am wrong I will happily tell you why I make that statement, after Christmas, but best not say anything now. You only need 17 days to call an election.

[Varche]

OK, here's my prophecy.

Daniel Hannan will jump ship and join UKIP and be elected leader.

Election in 2010: Hung government. Con/UKIP holding majority (could be either way), Labour third. LibDems obliterated.

I reserve the right to amend this prophecy as soon as it starts to look daft!   

Nick I agree with the basis of your prophecy. Here is mine.

The Conservatives will just scrape in. Lib Dems, Ukip and shock horror BNP will take a lot of the remaining votes with Labour trailing well behind. Even the Greens will make ground.

The Conservatives will have to power share to be able to make progress.

As to not having a referendum. The Conservatives have seriously misjudged the mood of the UK. Just what is it that we the ordinary people cannot be told about the mighty EU? One despairs.

Varche

[Nickbat]

OK, here's my prophecy.

Daniel Hannan will jump ship and join UKIP and be elected leader.

Election in 2010: Hung government. Con/UKIP holding majority (could be either way), Labour third. LibDems obliterated.

I reserve the right to amend this prophecy as soon as it starts to look daft!   

Nick I agree with the basis of your prophecy. Here is mine.

The Conservatives will just scrape in. Lib Dems, Ukip and shock horror BNP will take a lot of the remaining votes with Labour trailing well behind. Even the Greens will make ground.

The Conservatives will have to power share to be able to make progress.

As to not having a referendum. The Conservatives have seriously misjudged the mood of the UK. Just what is it that we the ordinary people cannot be told about the mighty EU? One despairs.

Varche

My sentiments entirely, Varche.

But what would the UK be like outside the EU.

I've just ordered a free book (from the Taxpayers Alliance) to tell me. 

Everyone else can, too.

http://www.greateudebate.com/

 

[Dishevelled Den]

OK, here's my prophecy.

Daniel Hannan will jump ship and join UKIP and be elected leader.

Election in 2010: Hung government. Con/UKIP holding majority (could be either way), Labour third. LibDems obliterated.

I reserve the right to amend this prophecy as soon as it starts to look daft!   

Nick I agree with the basis of your prophecy. Here is mine.

The Conservatives will just scrape in. Lib Dems, Ukip and shock horror BNP will take a lot of the remaining votes with Labour trailing well behind. Even the Greens will make ground.

The Conservatives will have to power share to be able to make progress.

As to not having a referendum. The Conservatives have seriously misjudged the mood of the UK. Just what is it that we the ordinary people cannot be told about the mighty EU? One despairs.

Varche

The Conservatives will have to power share to be able to make progress.


....and that will lead to a butcher's shop of a parliament V.  A complete waste of time.

One despairs

....and you have justifiable cause to do so V.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Well coming in late on this discussion, I will purely state that I WILL be voting CONSERVATIVE 8-) 8-) 8-)

I would far rather a politician be honest and say NOW that the referendum is a lost issue due to the LEGAL situation that Britain is now in, thanks to the LABOUR Government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, and then everyone else now doing so to seal, legally, the agreement !!!  

Cameron has told us the truth instead of stringing us along on a pack of lies.  Times have drastically changed since he first mentioned about holding a referendum!  Do NOT blame him for that.

A politician is legally bound by domestic, and in this case, international law like the rest of us.  He will just have to work within the Lisbon Treaty, with the rest of Europe to find what will be best for Britain. 8-) 8-)

[Nickbat]

Well coming in late on this discussion, I will purely state that I WILL be voting CONSERVATIVE 8-) 8-) 8-)

I would far rather a politician be honest and say NOW that the referendum is a lost issue due to the LEGAL situation that Britain is now in, thanks to the LABOUR Government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, and then everyone else now doing so to seal, legally, the agreement !!!  

Cameron has told us the truth instead of stringing us along on a pack of lies.  Times have drastically changed since he first mentioned about holding a referendum!  Do NOT blame him for that.

A politician is legally bound by domestic, and in this case, international law like the rest of us.  He will just have to work within the Lisbon Treaty, with the rest of Europe to find what will be best for Britain. 8-) 8-)

Sorry, Lizzie, but you can't work within the Lisbon Treaty. It is designed so that no single country can work within it!

Cameron's made a serious error of judgment. Even if a referendum on the treaty can be deemed technically pointless, it would nevertheless serve to give the people a voice which they have been denied for so long and, secondly, assuming a No vote, it would give him a mandate to be more assertive in the EU, even if it would not achieve much.

The bottom line is that he gave a cast-iron guarantee. If he walks away from it, no matter the arguments that "he only meant if it was not ratified before the GE", he has shown himself to be no better than previous politicians who have broken promises.

He'd better come out with something substantive at 4pm or people will understandably leave the Tories in their droves.      

[Dishevelled Den]

Well coming in late on this discussion, I will purely state that I WILL be voting CONSERVATIVE 8-) 8-) 8-)

I would far rather a politician be honest and say NOW that the referendum is a lost issue due to the LEGAL situation that Britain is now in, thanks to the LABOUR Government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, and then everyone else now doing so to seal, legally, the agreement !!!  

Cameron has told us the truth instead of stringing us along on a pack of lies.  Times have drastically changed since he first mentioned about holding a referendum!  Do NOT blame him for that.

A politician is legally bound by domestic, and in this case, international law like the rest of us. He will just have to work within the Lisbon Treaty, with the rest of Europe to find what will be best for Britain. 8-) 8-)

Sorry, Lizzie, but you can't work within the Lisbon Treaty. It is designed so that no single country can work within it!

Cameron's made a serious error of judgment. Even if a referendum on the treaty can be deemed technically pointless, it would nevertheless serve to give the people a voice which they have been denied for so long and, secondly, assuming a No vote, it would give him a mandate to be more assertive in the EU, even if it would not achieve much.
The bottom line is that he gave a cast-iron guarantee. If he walks away from it, no matter the arguments that "he only meant if it was not ratified before the GE", he has shown himself to be no better than previous politicians who have broken promises.

He'd better come out with something substantive at 4pm or people will understandably leave the Tories in their droves.      

David Davis was suggesting as much today, however - as you state - it would very much be the case of the Emperor really having no clothes to protect us from the avaricious eyes of Brussels.

This a done deal and there's no practical way out of it as it seems that we've lost our national resolve to maintain our independent traditions.

It only remains for me to thank Prime Minister Brown, and the New Labour government, for casting the British people adrift in the murky depths of Europe and eradicating centuries of independence from foreign rule.

The Franco/German pact has won after all.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

[Nickbat]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

At least with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government, we would have a chance to air our views and lobby the decision makers. In the new post-lisbon EU, there is no democracy. I'll repeat that for you, NO DEMOCRACY.

That's why it's bad. And it's bad for the left as well as the right. You may think that the new EU President will be a fellow leftie but with this apparatus in place, there is no way to prevent, in the future, a left or right extremist controlling the superstate.

We should get out now. I'm convinced of that. 

[Dishevelled Den]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

very few Liberal Democrats on OOF


...that can only be a good thing Opti.


Little Englander


...I think that would be a mistaken and short-sighted goal Opti, I do feel however that we should have full control over our national legislature, something that will now be lost after this stitch-up/ratification.