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[cem_devecioglu]

Black Wednesday was pocket change compared to the amounts of money we are in trouble for now.
Anyway I have come to the conclusion that this democracy lark just isnt going to work. We have the Limpdem activists hoping they can hold the country to ransom, when they are nothing more than a bunch of old hippies who dropped too much acid in the 60,s and can no longer think straight.
We have a PM in No 10 who if he had any dignity and wasnt completely deluded would by now have announced that he will resign, but will stay for a few more days to allow the transition to a new govt (that would be statesmanlike)
And we have the Tories who have sold their souls to "progressivism" only to find out that hardly anyone has noticed so they neednt have bothered.
I think the answer is a benevolent dictatorship run by .......................................ME.

nah..somebody see the light

obviously wont work.. as seen in million examples..

and last week friday I spent considerable effort to tell why it wont work and politician hands are already tied up with so many..

[cem_devecioglu]

We should re-run the election without all the lib dem nonsense-straight fight between labour and conservatives,it's the only way we are going to get a definate result

So ignore the wishes of those who voted Lib Dem and forget they won 57 seats?? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

57 seats? what use is that ? only good for holding other parties to ransom ,we'll end up like israel,government held hostage by extremist odd balls dictating policy

agreed

But Cem, it is what a large number of people in our democracy want!!   That cannot and must not be ignored!

Lizzie, for the sake of those people must be..  :-/

[cem_devecioglu]

As for GB causing the financial crises.....Was he in charge of the rest of the world aswell ?? I don't think so 

Was he the Chancellor during the boom economy of first 10yrs of New Labour?  A time when New Labour decided they would destroy what remained of UK manufacturing, instead basing our economic success heavily on the finacial sector, which was further deregulated during this time?

Was he the chancellor that has WASTED 10's, if not 100's of billions of pounds on the permenently broken NHS, and on the (poor) education of our future?

Was he the chancellor that continued to BORROW during the good/boom years, rather than paying off a little of the existing debts?  Did he think the bust years would never come? (he publically said 'this is the end of boom and bust economy').


I'm just the thicko from the local comprehensive, but even I understand basic fiscal management.


So, yes, I do believe he is personally responsible (with others) for the depth of the trouble that the UK is now in 

So...Is GB responsible for the rest of Europe descending into financial chaos ?? Or is it more about peoples obssesion with borrowing and the fact that the financial instutions make huge money out of lending to people who can't afford to repay it ? Or as they now realise it they have actually run out of people to lend to !

The reason they are in that position is that they (as countries) have been spending a lot of money that they havent earned, now the chickens are coming home to roost.The two reasons we arent quite there are 1) we didnt join the Euro, so still have some control over interest rates etc.
2) we have one of the biggest financial centres in the world , which despite its recent problems, has started to recover reasonably well, which in turn generates a relatively high degree of confidence in our economy.
This helps to a degree mask the fact that our govt has been among the very worst in the world of spending money that the country hasnt earned. 

 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

We should re-run the election without all the lib dem nonsense-straight fight between labour and conservatives,it's the only way we are going to get a definate result

So ignore the wishes of those who voted Lib Dem and forget they won 57 seats?? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

57 seats? what use is that ? only good for holding other parties to ransom ,we'll end up like israel,government held hostage by extremist odd balls dictating policy

agreed

But Cem, it is what a large number of people in our democracy want!!   That cannot and must not be ignored!

Lizzie, for the sake of those people must be..  :-/

You surprise me Cem!

Yesterday we remembered when 65 years ago VE Day was celebrated after the most wasteful war in history had taken place to rid the planet of a powerful anti-democratic organisation.

Is that not enough to remind us all of NEVER allowing that situation to reoccur again of a nation dismantling its democratic systems to allow one party to rule??

I think it is time to highlight how the Lib-Dems, as much as I want to forget it as a Conservative supporter, attracted votes across the country totalling 6, 828, 000 , against Labour's 8,604,000, and the Conservatives 10,707,000!!  But they only ended up with 57 seats, 258 and 306 respectively!  

No wonder the Lib Dems want PR!

[cem_devecioglu]

We should re-run the election without all the lib dem nonsense-straight fight between labour and conservatives,it's the only way we are going to get a definate result

So ignore the wishes of those who voted Lib Dem and forget they won 57 seats?? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

57 seats? what use is that ? only good for holding other parties to ransom ,we'll end up like israel,government held hostage by extremist odd balls dictating policy

agreed

But Cem, it is what a large number of people in our democracy want!!   That cannot and must not be ignored!

Lizzie, for the sake of those people must be..  :-/

You surprise me Cem!

Yesterday we remembered when 65 years ago VE Day was celebrated after the most wasteful war in history had taken place to rid the planet of a powerful anti-democratic organisation.
Is that not enough to remind us all of NEVER allowing that situation to reoccur again of a nation dismantling its democratic systems to allow one party to rule??

I think it is time to highlight how the Lib-Dems, as much as I want to forget it as a Conservative supporter, attracted votes across the country totalling 6, 828, 000 , against Labour's 8,604,000, and the Conservatives 10,707,000!!  But they only ended up with 57 seats, 258 and 306 respectively!  

No wonder the Lib Dems want PR!

Nice one Lizzie

I wish to answer your statement in detail (which I hope I can after) ,

but for now I can say, the kind of management what I wish , of course it is not something like that was build by Nazis..

I believe human kind can build much better civilization management techniques.. fair , clean and quick..

and one point which needs mentioning , looking the actual number of votes and the corresponding seats in house of commons there is also another problem.. :-/

[albitz]

This problem is caused by the constituency boundaries being all wrong, and every time they are changed the changes seem to favour Labour even more (what a surprise).
The most obvious exanple beingthat something like 85% of the UK population live in England, but England doesnt have anything like 85% of the seats in parliemant.
Time for an English Parliament perhaps ? with the full parliemant only voting on issues which affect the whole of the UK? :-/

[Lizzie_Zoom]

We should re-run the election without all the lib dem nonsense-straight fight between labour and conservatives,it's the only way we are going to get a definate result

So ignore the wishes of those who voted Lib Dem and forget they won 57 seats?? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

57 seats? what use is that ? only good for holding other parties to ransom ,we'll end up like israel,government held hostage by extremist odd balls dictating policy

agreed

But Cem, it is what a large number of people in our democracy want!!   That cannot and must not be ignored!

Lizzie, for the sake of those people must be..  :-/

You surprise me Cem!

Yesterday we remembered when 65 years ago VE Day was celebrated after the most wasteful war in history had taken place to rid the planet of a powerful anti-democratic organisation.
Is that not enough to remind us all of NEVER allowing that situation to reoccur again of a nation dismantling its democratic systems to allow one party to rule??

I think it is time to highlight how the Lib-Dems, as much as I want to forget it as a Conservative supporter, attracted votes across the country totalling 6, 828, 000 , against Labour's 8,604,000, and the Conservatives 10,707,000!!  But they only ended up with 57 seats, 258 and 306 respectively!  

No wonder the Lib Dems want PR!

Nice one Lizzie

I wish to answer your statement in detail (which I hope I can after) ,

but for now I can say, the kind of management what I wish , of course it is not something like that was build by Nazis..

I believe human kind can build much better civilization management techniques.. fair , clean and quick..

and one point which needs mentioning , looking the actual number of votes and the corresponding seats in house of commons there is also another problem.. :-/

Thanks Cem

But that is the problem; the line between a full democracy and a one party dictatorship is always very fine. 

Throughout history philosophers have expressed their well thought beliefs on how any nation should be ruled.  Plato had envisaged a meritocracy , where Philosopher Kings would decide on the worth of the nations citizens, in bands of bronze, silver, or gold, and how they should perform in their society, with powers limited to their rank.  Hobbes envisaged of course one supreme ruler who would stop individual man continually "warring against man", as that was a mans natural trait, by governing tightly in what would seem to be a dictatorship.  Nietzsche considered a society of "supermen" to rule and protect the weak, which of course the Nazis corrupted to form the base of their political system. Marx believed in a society of equals, all benefiting fairly from their labours, whilst being able to exercise their creativity.

Locke though fully supported the belief of the God given right of men to exercise complete freedom, providing they harmed no one and they applied themselves to a social contract with the rest of society. Mills however,considered a utilitarian society, where everything is the for the greatest good for the greatest number, but individual liberty is protected, whilst working with all society. 

Two cut a very long story short, the philosophy of Mills in particular, but also Locke, has shaped political thinking in the 20th century to form a liberal society which certainly includes in the 21st century more of Locke's form of regulatory protection to stop individuals in hurting themselves. 

The society of the UK has been built on these beliefs, with the idea of a free represenative democracy deciding who should rule on behalf  of the people, to advance their political wishes.  By natural progression we have now arrived at a situation whereby a multi-party political system is being voted for by the people wishing for many varied policies, but in a tradition two party reality, that reflects more of the political landscape of 1910, when the Conservatives or Liberals where the driving forces to be voted for.  Simple, straightforward, but in many ways it resulted in whole sections of society not being faithfully represented, such as women and the working class!!

So Cem the BIG question is..........does society in the UK now want to revert to a simple political system limited to just two parties, and trust they can represent the views of the majority, and without slipping into the early stages of a dictatorship?? :-/ :-/   

How this could be achieved, with the desires of the individual people expecting their liberty to express particular political aspirations, is the next BIG question? :-/ :-/

[albitz]

As for GB causing the financial crises.....Was he in charge of the rest of the world aswell ?? I don't think so 

Was he the Chancellor during the boom economy of first 10yrs of New Labour?  A time when New Labour decided they would destroy what remained of UK manufacturing, instead basing our economic success heavily on the finacial sector, which was further deregulated during this time?

Was he the chancellor that has WASTED 10's, if not 100's of billions of pounds on the permenently broken NHS, and on the (poor) education of our future?

Was he the chancellor that continued to BORROW during the good/boom years, rather than paying off a little of the existing debts?  Did he think the bust years would never come? (he publically said 'this is the end of boom and bust economy').


I'm just the thicko from the local comprehensive, but even I understand basic fiscal management.


So, yes, I do believe he is personally responsible (with others) for the depth of the trouble that the UK is now in 

So...Is GB responsible for the rest of Europe descending into financial chaos ?? Or is it more about peoples obssesion with borrowing and the fact that the financial instutions make huge money out of lending to people who can't afford to repay it ? Or as they now realise it they have actually run out of people to lend to !

The reason they are in that position is that they (as countries) have been spending a lot of money that they havent earned, now the chickens are coming home to roost.
The two reasons we arent quite there are 1) we didnt join the Euro, so still have some control over interest rates etc.
2) we have one of the biggest financial centres in the world , which despite its recent problems, has started to recover reasonably well, which in turn generates a relatively high degree of confidence in our economy.
This helps to a degree mask the fact that our govt has been among the very worst in the world of spending money that the country hasnt earned. 

Most of the population of the western world are responsible for doing that...... spending what we haven't got !! from top to bottom credit is destroying us all !!

And when our PM keeps telling us that he has abolished boom and bust, there is no good reason not to.

[albitz]

Maybe the answer is that we should have to take two tests before we can vote. The first test would be a test of intelligence to establish we are capable of understanding the issues.The second test would be a test of political awareness, to discourage people voting in ignorance or being too easily swayed by x-factor type campaigning.
Having left wing tendencies would of course automatically disqualify you on both counts.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Maybe the answer is that we should have to take two tests before we can vote. The first test would be a test of intelligence to establish we are capable of understanding the issues.#The second test would be a test of political awareness, to discourage people voting in ignorance or being too easily swayed by x-factor type campaigning.
Having left wing tendencies would of course automatically disqualify you on both counts.

Very much along the lines of the beliefs of Plato then 8-) 8-)

[Martin_1962]

Maybe the answer is that we should have to take two tests before we can vote. The first test would be a test of intelligence to establish we are capable of understanding the issues.#The second test would be a test of political awareness, to discourage people voting in ignorance or being too easily swayed by x-factor type campaigning.
Having left wing tendencies would of course automatically disqualify you on both counts.

Very much along the lines of the beliefs of Plato then 8-) 8-)

I thought he just drove touring cars and presented 5th Gear

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Maybe the answer is that we should have to take two tests before we can vote. The first test would be a test of intelligence to establish we are capable of understanding the issues.#The second test would be a test of political awareness, to discourage people voting in ignorance or being too easily swayed by x-factor type campaigning.
Having left wing tendencies would of course automatically disqualify you on both counts.

Very much along the lines of the beliefs of Plato then 8-) 8-)

I thought he just drove touring cars and presented 5th Gear

 

[TheBoy]

As for GB causing the financial crises.....Was he in charge of the rest of the world aswell ?? I don't think so 

Was he the Chancellor during the boom economy of first 10yrs of New Labour?  A time when New Labour decided they would destroy what remained of UK manufacturing, instead basing our economic success heavily on the finacial sector, which was further deregulated during this time?

Was he the chancellor that has WASTED 10's, if not 100's of billions of pounds on the permenently broken NHS, and on the (poor) education of our future?

Was he the chancellor that continued to BORROW during the good/boom years, rather than paying off a little of the existing debts?  Did he think the bust years would never come? (he publically said 'this is the end of boom and bust economy').


I'm just the thicko from the local comprehensive, but even I understand basic fiscal management.


So, yes, I do believe he is personally responsible (with others) for the depth of the trouble that the UK is now in 

Brown doesn't come out smelling of roses, but I remember "Black Wednesday" in the early 90's when a tory government took us to the brink of financial ruin - thats why the tories couldnt get near government in the last 13 years

Nail. Head. Precisely.

*ANY* party in power for that length of time has lost touch, and run low on ideas. Hence we have stupid laws being suggested currently - any accident involving a car and a push bike is the car driver's fault without question, remember that one still being put before the house?  What about the one where I have to ensure my old, decrepid, sleepy cat is regularly woken for 'mental stimulation'.  What planet are these morons from?


As others have said, Black Wed is small changed compared to this.  Even if you shut down the NHS and the entire education system, that *STILL* would not cover the annual deficit

[albitz]

  ..............maybe he also dislikes lefty thinking as much as we do. :-/

[Banjax]

Listening to the Scotnats today on the news. ...........they are desperate to get involved in a Labour/Libdem coalition for the single purpose of blackmailing them into sending lots (more) money north of the border, despite the fact that the country doesnt have the money.Its enough to make you want to rebuild Hadrians wall.

Tell you what Albs, not a bad idea - I'll start setting out and mixing the mortar and we'll go halfers on the bricks?