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[Nickbat]

so you agree we should spend millions of taxpayers money to hook Eigg (pop 100 ish) to the mains then?
 

luckily the residents of Eigg are a hardy breed - i'm sure they'll be OK - they were well used to power cuts before the renewable energy grid was brought online 

you really don't want this to work Nickbat do you? thats the spirit, keep ignoring the need for renewables and mocking those that are developing it for the rest of us.....when the time comes 

They aren't developing anything for anyone. There are 95 people on the island. I'm sure they'll cope. What it does do, however, is provide us with a warning of how wholesale reliance on alternatives, at this stage of their development, could spell disaster (see my later post).

[Dishevelled Den]

so you agree we should spend millions of taxpayers money to hook Eigg (pop 100 ish) to the mains then?
 

luckily the residents of Eigg are a hardy breed - i'm sure they'll be OK - they were well used to power cuts before the renewable energy grid was brought online 

you really don't want this to work Nickbat do you? thats the spirit, keep ignoring the need for renewables and mocking those that are developing it for the rest of us.....when the time comes 

There's nothing wrong in seeking alternative sources BJ but should we not be concerned by the apparently dismal failure of technology specifically developed to exploit these alternative sources?

[Dishevelled Den]

It was hailed as Britain’s first “green” island and a glimpse of the what the future could hold for the rest of the country.

But when the inhabitants of the remote Scottish island of Eigg put their faith in the wind and rain to provide all their electricity they did not reckon for one thing – mild weather.

Now the 95 residents are being asked not to use kettles, toasters or other kitchen appliances after uncharacteristically mild weather caused a critical shortage of power.

As a result, the community owned power company has placed the island on “red alert” and issued notices effectively rationing electricity.

It has had to revert to using old-fashioned diesel power to run a backup generator to keep the lights on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/hydro_electricenergy/7858960/Power-rationed-on-green-island-Eigg-after-mild-weather-causes-drought.html

OK, sniggering over.

Hands up those who can imagine a similar situation occurring on the UK mainland in the not too distant future? 

on the UK mainland in the not too distant future?

I welcome the attempts presently being made to broaden the source of generated energy in our nation. 8-)

However I'm afraid that I will be quite uncharacteristically sniggering when all this amounts to naught.

The reason for my recklessness?  The present Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change - the Right Honourable Christopher Huhne, MP and lesbian turner ( )

Don't worry about Huhne, Zulu. It's not just about one man. After all, we also have Greg Barker, the Climate Change Minister.

"...the MP for Bexhill and Battle is a fighter and unafraid to court controversy. Four years ago, the father-of-three was mired in scandal after leaving his wife, Celeste, for a male interior designer. He was also caught up in the MPs’ expenses furore, having made £320,000 profit on a flat he bought with the help of his taxpayer-funded expenses.

In one sense, Barker is ideally placed for his new role, having worked for the Russian oil company Sibneft, once owned by Chelsea FC owner Roman Abramovich."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/7860450/Greg-Barker-climate-change-minister-We-cannot-go-on-relying-on-foreign-fuel.html

On second thoughts, Zulu, worry about them both.

On second thoughts, Zulu, worry about them both

Thank's Nick - leave that one to me

[Dishevelled Den]

Furthermore, if they can't make this work in such a northern location, how do they expect it to work in Sunningdale or Kensington or any other inland place you care to mention?

mega long extension cables to Skye

Great suggestion Hoof   The uncomplicated ones are usually the best.

[Banjax]

if at first you don't succeed....give up and bury your head 

[Dishevelled Den]

if at first you don't succeed....give up and bury your head 

I don't think it's a case of that BJ - more one of a national energy policy being formulated on technology that is costly to develop and maintain (for the potential return) and is so weather dependent for its alleged generating efficiency.

To stave off the expected generating shortfall coming in the next decade or so we should have already embarked on an aggressive nuclear policy years ago. 

[tidla]

http://www.birminghamrecycled.co.uk/energy/bullring-unveils-first-public-power-points-for-electric-cars-in-birmingham

 :-? :-?

well thought out as usual.

news item toward the bottom of the page talks of a possible axe on the £5000 discount.

[Banjax]

if at first you don't succeed....give up and bury your head 

I don't think it's a case of that BJ - more one of a national energy policy being formulated on technology that is costly to develop and maintain (for the potential return) and is so weather dependent for it alleged generating efficiency.

To stave off the expected generating shortfall coming in the next decade or so we should have already embarked on an aggressive nuclear policy years ago. 

totally agree that we should be building new reactors, zulu, but as there seems to be a massive misconception about nuclear power added to the massive initial costs....i think that ship has sailed, maybe with the impending energy shortfall, when we're more desperate for alternatives we'll build more........my guess would be that we'll "make do and mend" the current reactors........stretching out their design life rather than build new ones, personally i'd rather we got over our distrust of nuclear energy and invested properly 

[Dishevelled Den]

http://www.birminghamrecycled.co.uk/energy/bullring-unveils-first-public-power-points-for-electric-cars-in-birmingham

 :-? :-?

well thought out as usual.

news item toward the bottom of the page talks of a possible axe on the £5000 discount.

You do well to wonder Tapper.

The general idea of this is laudable enough but fails on the grounds of impracticability. The energy used to charge up these vehicles must come from somewhere, and that place - for the most part - is the plain, vanilla power station that has burnt fossil fuels to generate the power. 

So, in the times of potential energy shortages due to dwindling generating capacity, does it make sense to roll these schemes out on a wide-spread basis?  Like schemes are being used, in my view, as a conduit to riches - on the back of government acquiescence - by business sector more intent on making money than being overtly concerned with the urban/city environment.

Is there any point in having private transport - in the form of cars - at all, surely public transport should reign supreme in these locations?

Until there is a root and branch reform of public transport in this country, with the emphasis on moving people quickly, cleanly and safely - rather than making money - we are only tinkering with the policy in an extremely disjointed way.

[Chris_H]

http://www.birminghamrecycled.co.uk/energy/bullring-unveils-first-public-power-points-for-electric-cars-in-birmingham

 :-? :-?

well thought out as usual.

news item toward the bottom of the page talks of a possible axe on the £5000 discount.

You do well to wonder Tapper.

The general idea of this is laudable enough but fails on the grounds of impracticability. The energy used to charge up these vehicles must come from somewhere, and that place - for the most part - is the plain, vanilla power station that has burnt fossil fuels to generate the power. 

So, in the times of potential energy shortages due to dwindling generating capacity, does it make sense to roll these schemes out on a wide-spread basis?  Like schemes are being used, in my view, as a conduit to riches - on the back of government acquiescence - by business sector more intent on making money than being overtly concerned with the urban/city environment.

Is there any point in having private transport - in the form of cars - at all, surely public transport should reign supreme in these locations?

Until there is a root and branch reform of public transport in this country, with the emphasis on moving people quickly, cleanly and safely - rather than making money - we are only tinkering with the policy in an extremely disjointed way.

You sound as blinkered as the other 'search for alternative energy forms' knockers.

Electric cars are not without environmental benefit even when charged from coal-fired power stations.  They enable the energy to be created on a large scale centrally - which is more efficient.  They allow the pollutants to be discharged away from centres of population and to be put through cleaning processes that are unaffordable on 20-30kGBP cars.
It is precisely to research the practicalities of day-to-day running of these experiments, that they have installed these subsidised charging points.

As for businesses being interested only in profits...  where have you been over the last several decades?  That is why governments have to dangle something they understand in front of them to get the desired development done.

Abolish private transport?  A very commendable suggestion IMO but will get laughed out of court by your next-door neighbours for the next few decades unless some disaster strikes.

[Varche]

I think you have all missed the point here.

There isn't [size=14]enough[/size] electricity apparently for the islanders. Therefore the problem is not the technology but the planning stage which didn't assess the needs correctly.

I get totally fed up with people chasing fixes for things rather than addressing the fundamental issue. A good example of that is the prison population being too large in the Uk so we will let them out early rather than reduce the numbers offending in the first place.

[Banjax]

I think you have all missed the point here.

There isn't [size=14]enough[/size] electricity apparently for the islanders. Therefore the problem is not the technology but the planning stage which didn't assess the needs correctly.

I get totally fed up with people chasing fixes for things rather than addressing the fundamental issue. A good example of that is the prison population being too large in the Uk so we will let them out early rather than reduce the numbers offending in the first place.

they didn't have capacity before this solution to harness renewable energy so its still a damn sight better than they had   

[Dishevelled Den]

You sound as blinkered as the other 'search for alternative energy forms' knockers.

Electric cars are not without environmental benefit even when charged from coal-fired power stations.  They enable the energy to be created on a large scale centrally - which is more efficient.  They allow the pollutants to be discharged away from centres of population and to be put through cleaning processes that are unaffordable on 20-30kGBP cars.
It is precisely to research the practicalities of day-to-day running of these experiments, that they have installed these subsidised charging points.

As for businesses being interested only in profits...  where have you been over the last several decades?  That is why governments have to dangle something they understand in front of them to get the desired development done.

Abolish private transport?  A very commendable suggestion IMO but will get laughed out of court by your next-door neighbours for the next few decades unless some disaster strikes.

blinkered as the other 'search for alternative energy forms' knockers.

I would disagree with that point Chris.  Far from knocking the search for technology to generate energy by alternative means I’m very keen so see this succeed from an environmental and energy security standpoint.  This is why I described it as laudable.

It remains impracticable in by view (in this case) because inter alia there should be no requirement for private transport in the city environment.  The establishing of these recharging points suggests that such transport is being regarded as part of the future norm rather than the emphasis being placed of efficient, safe and clean public transport.


 

They enable the energy to be created on a large scale centrally - which is more efficient.

Energy that still has to be generated in the first place Chris, and at the moment this is drawn from a mixture of technologies each exhibiting their own disadvantages in terms of environmental impact.

That is of course as long as there's sufficient energy to go round:  That's why I believe that rather than focussing on this (presently) trendy means to move people in the city environment - given the relatively primitive technology available to provide the motive force - we should ensure that the generating infrastructure is in place to provide sufficient capacity that allows technology to develop and refine future means of transport.  Battery technology is a very important issue here so perhaps the emphasis should be placed on that rather than on charging points.

dangle something they understand in front of them to get the desired development done

I'm not naive enough to suggest that business has no part to play Chris but by extension, business is there to make money and the bottom line will always take precedence over the public good.

Past governments have abdicated responsibility for the effective running of critical state institutions to the private sector which is fair enough if there's sufficient regulation in place to ensure that these institutions run effectively and efficiently.  The present difficulty of obtaining a reasonably priced through fare to travel on the rail network is a case in point, illustrating the drawback of commercial consideration before everything else - as exhibited by the different operators.

Abolish private transport?

I'm not suggesting that at all Chris.  In the city environment it makes sense otherwise its an impossibility.  The weak point in most journeys made by commuters is that from their home to the first point of public transport.  The private car has a role to play here by enabling that journey to begin at a time convenient to the traveller.  Why is there not substantial car parking capacity at main access points to public transport outside the city environment?

Where I'm presently located I could not do without private transport and that will always be the case for people living in rural areas. When I had my London posting however I was able to park-up the Volvo 760 I drove at the time and use public transport - except when I was obliged to use official transport of course.

So, I'm far from being a nay-sayer in these matters Chris.  I would love to see a sensible national energy policy being formulated based on the security and environmental credentials of sustainable generating capacity – and - the development of workable alternative technology designed to benefit the populous at large rather than the business sector chosen to develop and manage this critical element of the national infrastructure.

[Kevin Wood]

I think you have all missed the point here.

There isn't [size=14]enough[/size] electricity apparently for the islanders. Therefore the problem is not the technology but the planning stage which didn't assess the needs correctly.

I get totally fed up with people chasing fixes for things rather than addressing the fundamental issue. A good example of that is the prison population being too large in the Uk so we will let them out early rather than reduce the numbers offending in the first place.

Not quite -  the nature of renewables is that you can only generate when the natural resource you're using is playing ball.

They could have installed 10 x the required capacity and still get times when demand is not met.

There will be calm days - sometimes for weeks at a time. Calm days have calm nights, so that's wind power and solar gone for a burton. Often calm spells occur in winter, and coincide with very frosty weather and short days, so very little solar energy to collect and high demand.

Unless you can store as much energy as you can consume, renewable can never provide the reliable supply 24/7 which we have come to expect and rely on, no matter by what factor your capacity exceeds demand.

Storing energy on a significant (to the supply network) scale is impossible so what do you do then?

• Run fossil or nuclear stations inefficiently on hot standby but pat yourself on the back for using renewables anyway?
• Concentrate on implementing a "smart grid" where you can shed low priority load when renewables are off-line and make use of small scale storage attached to the grid to absorb output from renewables when there is little demand?
• Say "sod it all" and decide that if you have to run Nuclear / fossil fuels on hot standby you might as well use them for the base load and just concentrate on making them as clean as possible and leave renewables in the minority?
• Go from a high availability grid to a rather more iffy infrastructure where you accept that mains power is not available 24/7. In this instance, everyone who absolutely relies on mains power will, of course, install a diesel backup generator.

The answer isn't clear cut, of course, but at the moment we are sleepwalking towards the last option  through failure to address the others. Of course, a fossil fuelled backup generator at every commercial premises running for ever more significant percentages of the time as the grid fails to keep up leads to the worst possible environmental outcome. 

Kevin

[Dishevelled Den]

I think you have all missed the point here.

There isn't [size=14]enough[/size] electricity apparently for the islanders. Therefore the problem is not the technology but the planning stage which didn't assess the needs correctly.

I get totally fed up with people chasing fixes for things rather than addressing the fundamental issue. A good example of that is the prison population being too large in the Uk so we will let them out early rather than reduce the numbers offending in the first place.

Not quite -  the nature of renewables is that you can only generate when the natural resource you're using is playing ball.

They could have installed 10 x the required capacity and still get times when demand is not met.

There will be calm days - sometimes for weeks at a time. Calm days have calm nights, so that's wind power and solar gone for a burton. Often calm spells occur in winter, and coincide with very frosty weather and short days, so very little solar energy to collect and high demand.

Unless you can store as much energy as you can consume, renewable can never provide the reliable supply 24/7 which we have come to expect and rely on, no matter by what factor your capacity exceeds demand.

Storing energy on a significant (to the supply network) scale is impossible so what do you do then?

• Run fossil or nuclear stations inefficiently on hot standby but pat yourself on the back for using renewables anyway?
• Concentrate on implementing a "smart grid" where you can shed low priority load when renewables are off-line and make use of small scale storage attached to the grid to absorb output from renewables when there is little demand?
• Say "sod it all" and decide that if you have to run Nuclear / fossil fuels on hot standby you might as well use them for the base load and just concentrate on making them as clean as possible and leave renewables in the minority?
• Go from a high availability grid to a rather more iffy infrastructure where you accept that mains power is not available 24/7. In this instance, everyone who absolutely relies on mains power will, of course, install a diesel backup generator.

The answer isn't clear cut, of course, but at the moment we are sleepwalking towards the last option  through failure to address the others. Of course, a fossil fuelled backup generator at every commercial premises running for ever more significant percentages of the time as the grid fails to keep up leads to the worst possible environmental outcome. 

Kevin

I think that was a well reasoned piece K 8-) I also share the fears you express in the final paragraph