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[Vamps]

Anyway, being more general, I like to think we're all important in this society. Everyone does an important job in their own way, in one way or another. I'm behind the firefighters on this one, but being a firefighter myself (not LFB), my job is hard sometimes (I still enjoy the hard bits), it is my career choice.

I think more thanks should go to the people in our society who work the hardest, and get paid the least, with the worst conditions.

Take care workers for example, they probably work the hardest, the longest, doing unpleasant things everyday, in the worst conditions, with little thanks, low pay and no complaints. They get looked down on whether people admit it or not. What a sad state of affair when you work the hardest for the least, especially in a caring role!

There is a big imbalance in society, 'hero' footballers being an example!

[/highlight]

I like your thinking, such a misunderstood profession and so lowly paid.....

5-1............

[zippo]

 4-5 years ago i walked past a chap seated on a park bench crying ,not wanting to intrude i kept walking and did another circuit of the park . IEventually came back to the bloke on the bench again and he was still crying After some chit chat and a smoke he revealed he was a fire man for Greater Manchester Fire service. He was crying for a child whose life he/his watch couldn't save. I came away from that discussion with the knowledge that being a fire man/woman isn't so much a job but a calling.   I know that not all brigade staff think and feel the same , I was just wondering what its taken for them to strike on the busiest night of the year

[Proz]

Ahh .. Self Employed ....
So you dont have an employer shoving things down your neck that you didnt agree to when you signed the contract .
Im sure you wouldnt like it if the shoe was on the other foot.
You make your own working rules then ... you dont have them forced on you .
I almost sense some bitterness in you towards the fire service for the very reasons you stated above ie job security , health benifits although i would be interested to hear what they are  , and as far as im aware its a pension they pay into although i could be wrong on that one . But dont they deserve it anyway for keeping you safe ? Or wont you appreciate that till the day you need them ??
Dont get me wrong as i do belive that some of them are out for nothing but themselves and what ever other interests they have .
But i think they should be treated correctly and fairly and it doesnt seem like they are .
So why dont you get a job with LFB if its that great and gives you all the "perks " you think it does .
 

[geoffr70]

Anyway, being more general, I like to think we're all important in this society. Everyone does an important job in their own way, in one way or another. I'm behind the firefighters on this one, but being a firefighter myself (not LFB), my job is hard sometimes (I still enjoy the hard bits), it is my career choice.

I think more thanks should go to the people in our society who work the hardest, and get paid the least, with the worst conditions.

Take care workers for example, they probably work the hardest, the longest, doing unpleasant things everyday, in the worst conditions, with little thanks, low pay and no complaints. They get looked down on whether people admit it or not. What a sad state of affair when you work the hardest for the least, especially in a caring role!

There is a big imbalance in society, 'hero' footballers being an example!

[/highlight]

I like your thinking, such a misunderstood profession and so lowly paid.....

5-1............

Not being a fan myself Vamps, some people think that influences my opinion. It took me a while to realise what 5-1 meant!

I like it when Sunderland lose, because the city is on a downer, so by contrast I'm on an upper!

[Nickbat]

Ahh .. Self Employed ....
So you dont have an employer shoving things down your neck that you didnt agree to when you signed the contract .
Im sure you wouldnt like it if the shoe was on the other foot.
You make your own working rules then ... you dont have them forced on you .
I almost sense some bitterness in you towards the fire service for the very reasons you stated above ie job security , health benifits although i would be interested to hear what they are  , and as far as im aware its a pension they pay into although i could be wrong on that one . But dont they deserve it anyway for keeping you safe ? Or wont you appreciate that till the day you need them ??
Dont get me wrong as i do belive that some of them are out for nothing but themselves and what ever other interests they have .
But i think they should be treated correctly and fairly and it doesnt seem like they are .
So why dont you get a job with LFB if its that great and gives you all the "perks " you think it does .
 

FFS!! They are being instructed to change their shift patterns to make the LFB a better service, that's all!!

Why all this emotive stuff about them doing a horrid job for a pittance?

It is not about pay, but about hours and shift change!!!

And I suppose there are no ex-frontline firefighters among the management of LFB are there? No, they will all be cigar-smoking fat cats eager to exploit the downtrodden workers.

As a Londoner, I want a fire service that is efficient as it can be. Is there something wrong with that? 

[Vamps]

Anyway, being more general, I like to think we're all important in this society. Everyone does an important job in their own way, in one way or another. I'm behind the firefighters on this one, but being a firefighter myself (not LFB), my job is hard sometimes (I still enjoy the hard bits), it is my career choice.

I think more thanks should go to the people in our society who work the hardest, and get paid the least, with the worst conditions.

Take care workers for example, they probably work the hardest, the longest, doing unpleasant things everyday, in the worst conditions, with little thanks, low pay and no complaints. They get looked down on whether people admit it or not. What a sad state of affair when you work the hardest for the least, especially in a caring role!

There is a big imbalance in society, 'hero' footballers being an example!

[/highlight]

I like your thinking, such a misunderstood profession and so lowly paid.....

5-1............

Not being a fan myself Vamps, some people think that influences my opinion. It took me a while to realise what 5-1 meant!

I like it when Sunderland lose, because the city is on a downer, so by contrast I'm on an upper!

 
Not into football myself but swmbo and my stepsons are from Sunderland.. the boys are into football so always good for a wind up, as a Gordie by birth...

[geoffr70]

Ahh .. Self Employed ....
So you dont have an employer shoving things down your neck that you didnt agree to when you signed the contract .
Im sure you wouldnt like it if the shoe was on the other foot.
You make your own working rules then ... you dont have them forced on you .
I almost sense some bitterness in you towards the fire service for the very reasons you stated above ie job security , health benifits although i would be interested to hear what they are  , and as far as im aware its a pension they pay into although i could be wrong on that one . But dont they deserve it anyway for keeping you safe ? Or wont you appreciate that till the day you need them ??
Dont get me wrong as i do belive that some of them are out for nothing but themselves and what ever other interests they have .
But i think they should be treated correctly and fairly and it doesnt seem like they are .
So why dont you get a job with LFB if its that great and gives you all the "perks " you think it does .
 

FFS!! They are being instructed to change their shift patterns to make the LFB a better service, that's all!!

Why all this emotive stuff about them doing a horrid job for a pittance?

It is not about pay, but about hours and shift change!!!

And I suppose there are no ex-frontline firefighters among the management of LFB are there? No, they will all be cigar-smoking fat cats eager to exploit the downtrodden workers.

As a Londoner, I want a fire service that is efficient as it can be. Is there something wrong with that? 

No, it's about LFB trying to forcefully impose a change in working conditions, which if not agreed to, they will be sacked, which is wrong, and certainly not fair, whatever you think of the fire service.

[albitz]

Imo the problem stems from the fact the the London area of the Union concerned was long ago infiltrated/ hijacked by a band of militant, hard line unionists who have an agenda which has little to do with the best interests of their members.
They are determined to railroad the management and any of their members who dont agree with them into submission.
They want to call the shots, have management scared to do anything without asking them first. Just like much of the country was in the 70,s.
There is a "militant tendency" within the Union movement that is determined to take us back there, and they see the fact that we have a Tory led govt. as the perfect time to start a new class war.
Bob Crowe  said as much a couple of weeks ago.
I have had a conversation with someone who was a senior Union figure in the 70,s and he admitted that he and others became drunk with power, intoxicated by their own ego,s.
The feeling of walking through a factory, whistling and pointing at the door, and have hundreds of workers fall in line behind you and march out the door without even asking why, can do things to a mans sense of judgement/ priorities/fair play etc.
Some of these Union leaders imo are desperately missing that kind of experience and are hell bent on getting it back.
Theres nothing they would love more than Beer and Sarnies in Number 10 in 5 years time, with a nervous Ed Miliband asking them what they would like from him.

[Banjax]

this whole debate is a race to the bottom, lets see how many rights we can get rid of, how many indignities we can bestow on workers - every strike now is seen as some communist plot to wrestle control into the hands of the unions.....well what if the unions are merely standing up for workers rights? how far do we have to go before enough is enough? i said race to the bottom as whenever industrial action is called the braying hordes come out citing examples of people on less pay with less conditions - i fear some on here wont be happy til every worker is on minimum pay working 80hr weeks. sometimes you need to take a stand, yes it'll ruffle some feathers, but look back in history - industrial action and protest has driven huge benefits in the way we work, the safety and environment we all benefit from so on this one i'll happily defend the right of anyone to withdraw labour or we'll all suffer as hard fought rights get slowly chipped away under the guise of "efficiency" 

that maybe sounds a bit too strong in light of this particular dispute, but i see it as the thin end of the wedge - the more its accepted, the more will be taken 

[Proz]

Lets just hope that some of the union leaders and the workforce in general arn't as prepared to bend over as much as the employer wants .
I would hate to think what state the country would be in if we let our employers take away every agreement whenever it suited them .
Mind you i suppose some would be quite happy by the sound of it ..... untill it affected them i expect 

[05omegav6]

I know that not all brigade staff think and feel the same , I was just wondering what its taken for them to strike on the busiest night of the year

.

Unions have no place in front line public services. They only stir up hornets nests like this to remind people that they still exist.
No union action= no union members (staff would not feel the need to be represented in this way)= no union income=no union.
By making mountains out of molehills they are simply justifying their existence. (and ensuring continued income).

I work 6/7 nights a week, usually 12+ hours, have no sick pay, no paid holiday, and no income guarantees. I'm self employed by choice and wouldn't accept union representation if it were given to me.
I know too many people who have had their lives ruined by management making poor decisions based on union pressure. ie demanding a 10-15% pay rise 'to make up for limited rises in previous years' with no compromises. Net result was anyone with more than 2yrs service, or on pre existing contracts, was made redundant. The firm the employed eastern europeans on new contracts with a 10% drop in the posted hourly rate (against the existing contracts) with overtime paid at basic rates. The company lasted another 3 months, as it had no experienced staff left.
Cheers unite

Fortunately the world has not yet gone totally mad, and we are able to have these discussions in a civilised manner on forums like this.

[geoffr70]

I know that not all brigade staff think and feel the same , I was just wondering what its taken for them to strike on the busiest night of the year

.

Unions have no place in front line public services. They only stir up hornets nests like this to remind people that they still exist.
No union action= no union members (staff would not feel the need to be represented in this way)= no union income=no union.
By making mountains out of molehills they are simply justifying their existence. (and ensuring continued income).

I work 6/7 nights a week, usually 12+ hours, have no sick pay, no paid holiday, and no income guarantees. I'm self employed by choice and wouldn't accept union representation if it were given to me.
I know too many people who have had their lives ruined by management making poor decisions based on union pressure. ie demanding a 10-15% pay rise 'to make up for limited rises in previous years' with no compromises. Net result was anyone with more than 2yrs service, or on pre existing contracts, was made redundant. The firm the employed eastern europeans on new contracts with a 10% drop in the posted hourly rate (against the existing contracts) with overtime paid at basic rates. The company lasted another 3 months, as it had no experienced staff left.
Cheers unite

Fortunately the world has not yet gone totally mad, and we are able to have these discussions in a civilised manner on forums like this.

Totally totally wrong. Perhaps you think this as you have no employer breathing down your neck trying to forcefully change your working conditions.

Why should frontline public services not have unions?

I'm employed, not self employed, and wouldn't tell self employed people what to do, so you saying this is wrong.

As far as unions making outrageous demands, there is good and bad everywhere, this doesn't mean, however, that certain people shouldn't be represented by a union.

[pscocoa]

this is the kind of outcome that is unintended by all - but has happened before and will no doubt happen again!

Striking fireman run over at picket.
Source
Sun The (UK), (ADRY), 02, 02 November 2010, ISSN: 0307-2681.
Text
A STRIKE-breaking fire officer was arrested last night after a picketing
colleague was run over.
Station manager Chris Young had been returning from a call-out when the car hit
Tamer Ozdemir, who was protesting outside.
It is believed a group of enraged firefighters were shouting "scabs" and
"traitors" at those still working at Croydon fire station, South London.
Witnesses said Mr Ozdemir, who is in his 40s, was thrown several feet into the
air. He was on the ground for 25 minutes until paramedics arrived. Last night
he was being treated in hospital for pelvic injuries.
Fire Brigades Union boss Mick Shaw said the car was following an engine back to
the station.
He claimed it accelerated as pickets tried to talk to the driver.
Mr Shaw added: "It accelerated suddenly and one of the striking firefighters
was thrown up and into the windscreen."
But onlookers said a large mob had surrounded the car and were shouting abuse
at the strike-breakers.
Contract staff from a firm called Assetco were called in to deal with 999 calls
during yesterday's strike. They were supported by senior brigade staff driving
cars. London firefighters were striking in a row over new contracts. Another
strike is set for Bonfire Night.
Abuse
Copyright © 2010 News International Ltd.
This is the fulltext.

[pscocoa]

'Cost of London means we need second jobs'.
Source
Evening Standard (London UK), (ACPM), 01, 01 November 2010, ISSN: 0958-5907.
Author(s)
Rob Parsons.
Text
FIREFIGHTERS today defended their right to have second jobs amid concerns that
their ability to earn two salaries is at the heart of the dispute.
A third of London firefighters are able to hold down two jobs because they work
only four days in every eight.
Brigade managers want to re-employ all frontline staff on new contracts that
will mean longer day shifts up from nine to 12 hours and shorter night
shifts, down from 15 hours to 12, to boost daytime fire prevention work. The
days off would be unaffected.
But firefighters today defended their second jobs saying they earned too
little to cope with the cost of London. Trainees earn GBP27,059, while
qualified crew are paid GBP33,220, and watch managers receive GBP39,982. All
salaries include GBP5,021 London weighting.
Two thousand London crew members have second jobs. Lucas Gypsiotis, based at
Leyton, is on the books of a top casting agency. The 29-year-old has appeared
in TV advertisements for Walkers Crisps and Tesco.
Watch manager Richard Golds, 46, who also runs a driving school in St Albans,
said: "Most of the firefighters live outside London because they can't afford
to live there any more."
Copyright © 2010 Associated Newspapers Company.
This is the fulltext.

[Nickbat]

'Cost of London means we need second jobs'.
Source
Evening Standard (London UK), (ACPM), 01, 01 November 2010, ISSN: 0958-5907.
Author(s)
Rob Parsons.
Text
FIREFIGHTERS today defended their right to have second jobs amid concerns that
their ability to earn two salaries is at the heart of the dispute.
A third of London firefighters are able to hold down two jobs because they work
only four days in every eight.
Brigade managers want to re-employ all frontline staff on new contracts that
will mean longer day shifts up from nine to 12 hours and shorter night
shifts, down from 15 hours to 12, to boost daytime fire prevention work. The
days off would be unaffected.
But firefighters today defended their second jobs saying they earned too
little to cope with the cost of London. Trainees earn GBP27,059, while
qualified crew are paid GBP33,220, and watch managers receive GBP39,982. All
salaries include GBP5,021 London weighting.
Two thousand London crew members have second jobs. Lucas Gypsiotis, based at
Leyton, is on the books of a top casting agency. The 29-year-old has appeared
in TV advertisements for Walkers Crisps and Tesco.
Watch manager Richard Golds, 46, who also runs a driving school in St Albans,
said: "Most of the firefighters live outside London because they can't afford
to live there any more."
Copyright © 2010 Associated Newspapers Company.
This is the fulltext.

I'd never have guessed it.