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[albitz]

Cem - many thousands of Cubans have gone to extraordinary lengths to escape from Cuba, and enter the USA. I dont ever recall hearing of someone from the USA doing the same to try to enter Cuba.

[Banjax]

Cem - many thousands of Cubans have gone to extraordinary lengths to escape from Cuba, and enter the USA. I dont ever recall hearing of someone from the USA doing the same to try to enter Cuba.

actually Albs, 1000s of "health tourists" from the US would travel to Cuba every year and take advantage of the Cubans far superior health system, if they ever lifted the embargo on travel 

[albitz]

But none of them would want to stay on a permanent basis.

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem - many thousands of Cubans have gone to extraordinary lengths to escape from Cuba, and enter the USA. I dont ever recall hearing of someone from the USA doing the same to try to enter Cuba.

actually Albs, 1000s of "health tourists" from the US would travel to Cuba every year and take advantage of the Cubans far superior health system, if they ever lifted the embargo on travel 

yep.. the prices of American health system and Cubans can never be compared..

and in general the capitalist system says if you dont have money or health insurance,  go die

[cem_devecioglu]

>>

yes.. but can you tell me what is the real price for a specific commodity ? how you define it ?


What a person is prepared to pay for it or what they consider it to be worth.

for example in a period where nobody read books
and everyone want to watch football you can say that writers must collect garbage and footballers live in luxury.. do you think thats a fair system ?


That failing isn't exclusive to the western system cem, there's just as many injustices and perverse arrangements within communism.



>> unfortunately thats the problem of human nature that the system cant be blamed for..

Would the same not apply to the capitalist system cem?

>>
yeah .. Stalin.. #1 example..  the bloody idiot who signed peace treaty with Hitler..

as I said human weakness cant be blamed on the system..

And so, as I said before, you can't denigrate the capitalist model we use here in the West as the commumist system is just as liable to be manipulated by those who have a personal agenda over that of the state.

The success, or otherwise, of either system depends on people not putting their interests ahead of those of the state.

I have been watching this interesting debate between Zulu and Cem.

I would simply add to this point that of course both Stalin and Hitler was the state.  In the western democracy that cannot happen.

already happened, Darling Bush

seriously in western world, there are two govts

one official but virtual , second real but hidden..  :-/

[Dishevelled Den]

Cem - many thousands of Cubans have gone to extraordinary lengths to escape from Cuba, and enter the USA. I dont ever recall hearing of someone from the USA doing the same to try to enter Cuba.

actually Albs, 1000s of "health tourists" from the US would travel to Cuba every year and take advantage of the Cubans far superior health system, if they ever lifted the embargo on travel 

yep.. the prices of American health system and Cubans can never be compared..

and in general the capitalist system says if you dont have money or health insurance,  go die

In general but not always cem.

When I needed treatment here I had the option to use private medical insurance but chose on principal to use our National Health Service instead.

I received treatment and surgical procedures that cost many thousands of GBP without having to pay for them. (Other than throught the normal contributions machinery)

Advanced research in the 'West' has been responsible for great strides in the medical treatment being offered to people which has saved lives which would have been lost years ago even though, perversely, this seems responsible for in an increasingly ageing population.

Can it not be that people are going to Cuba because the treatment there is less expensive to that in their own country (especially the US) rather than it being superior?

I

[cem_devecioglu]

in history there is no nation, empire,country whatever, has gone too high above the others without exploitation of others by means of war, invasion and some other methods..

ottoman empire was a good example I think..

although many of my citizens dont accept,
ottoman economic system was primarily dependant on exploitation of other countries\nations by means of war..

every spring they go for invasion\war as the treasury became empty ..because its system was not dependant on production even on agriculture..
but as most of you know expeditions on American lands changed many things , adding also the Renaissance age and after industrial revolution , brought it to the end..

now in this century
there is no chance for a poor country to exploit others and fill its treasury ..

only chance is to work till death and utilize technology as much as possible.. and use the available resources
very carefuly without wasting anything for luxury..

so the recipe for poor countries are already fixed..

for poor countries with communist economic planning prooved to show the maximum growth rates..
(you can check the net , various examples exist)

also giving an example from my country , 10 years of growth from 1929 to 1939 (despite the global economic crysis)  was enormous compared to the later years where the system shifted to the capitalist planning model..

I dont go in the details of numbers or different examples as its tedious but the prooven examples  are there, applied and being succesful..

[Dishevelled Den]

already happened, Darling Bush

seriously in western world, there are two govts

one official but virtual , second real but hidden..  :-/

Bush was, however, denied office in a subsequent election cem.

Does that really happen in the communist system?

Insofar as the duplicity of government is concerned - that happens world wide cem and isn't peculair to the West.

[Dishevelled Den]

in history there is no nation, empire,country whatever, has gone too high above the others without exploitation of others by means of war, invasion and some other methods..

ottoman empire was a good example I think..

although many of my citizens dont accept,
ottoman economic system was primarily dependant on exploitation of other countries\nations by means of war..

every spring they go for invasion\war as the treasury became empty ..because its system was not dependant on production even on agriculture..
but as most of you know expeditions on American lands changed many things , adding also the Renaissance age and after industrial revolution , brought it to the end..

now in this century
there is no chance for a poor country to exploit others and fill its treasury ..

only chance is to work till death and utilize technology as much as possible.. and use the available resources
very carefuly without wasting anything for luxury..

so the recipe for poor countries are already fixed..

for poor countries with communist economic planning prooved to show the maximum growth rates..
(you can check the net , various examples exist)

also giving an example from my country , 10 years of growth from 1929 to 1939 (despite the global economic crysis)  was enormous compared to the later years where the system shifted to the capitalist planning model..

I dont go in the details of numbers or different examples as its tedious but the prooven examples  are there, applied and being succesful..

now in this century
there is no chance for a poor country to exploit others and fill its treasury ..

I thought Hugo Chavez (for example) was doing just that cem.

[cem_devecioglu]

already happened, Darling Bush

seriously in western world, there are two govts

one official but virtual , second real but hidden..  :-/

Bush was, however, denied office in a subsequent election cem.

Does that really happen in the communist system?

Insofar as the duplicity of government is concerned - that happens world wide cem and isn't peculair to the West.

in communist systems , there is only one govt Zulu ..

[Dishevelled Den]

already happened, Darling Bush

seriously in western world, there are two govts

one official but virtual , second real but hidden..  :-/

Bush was, however, denied office in a subsequent election cem.

Does that really happen in the communist system?

Insofar as the duplicity of government is concerned - that happens world wide cem and isn't peculair to the West.

in communist systems , there is only one govt Zulu ..

That could be part of the problem cem.

[cem_devecioglu]

in history there is no nation, empire,country whatever, has gone too high above the others without exploitation of others by means of war, invasion and some other methods..

ottoman empire was a good example I think..

although many of my citizens dont accept,
ottoman economic system was primarily dependant on exploitation of other countries\nations by means of war..

every spring they go for invasion\war as the treasury became empty ..because its system was not dependant on production even on agriculture..
but as most of you know expeditions on American lands changed many things , adding also the Renaissance age and after industrial revolution , brought it to the end..

now in this century
there is no chance for a poor country to exploit others and fill its treasury ..

only chance is to work till death and utilize technology as much as possible.. and use the available resources
very carefuly without wasting anything for luxury..

so the recipe for poor countries are already fixed..

for poor countries with communist economic planning prooved to show the maximum growth rates..
(you can check the net , various examples exist)

also giving an example from my country , 10 years of growth from 1929 to 1939 (despite the global economic crysis)  was enormous compared to the later years where the system shifted to the capitalist planning model..

I dont go in the details of numbers or different examples as its tedious but the prooven examples  are there, applied and being succesful..

now in this century
there is no chance for a poor country to exploit others and fill its treasury ..

I thought Hugo Chavez (for example) was doing just that cem.

I'm afraid , cant agree that.. He took 94%  of votes ..
and kicked the greedy capitalism out of his country...

and as usual standard precautions of capt. system was tried on him but this time was unsuccesful ..

[cem_devecioglu]

already happened, Darling Bush

seriously in western world, there are two govts

one official but virtual , second real but hidden..  :-/

Bush was, however, denied office in a subsequent election cem.

Does that really happen in the communist system?

Insofar as the duplicity of government is concerned - that happens world wide cem and isn't peculair to the West.

in communist systems , there is only one govt Zulu ..

That could be part of the problem cem.

 

seriously I wont accept a hidden govt managing the one I vote..    (although here I dont vote for the current one)

[cem_devecioglu]

Chavez and IMF ..

this may give some idea
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18406119/

[Dishevelled Den]

I'm afraid , cant agree that.. He took 94%  of votes ..
and kicked the greedy capitalism out of his country...

and as usual standard precautions of capt. system was tried on him but this time was unsuccesful ..

I'm afraid , cant agree that.. He took 94%  of votes

Took being the operative word cem.

and kicked the greedy capitalism out of his country...

and as usual standard precautions of capt. system was tried on him but this time was unsuccesful

And profited on the back of the expertise of those who developed much of what he hopes will provide a future source of income for his country.