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[Banjax]

Go on BJ, think the unthinkable.

I predict that in a few years time,politicians on the left will start to make noises about how the EU isnt a very good thing and that we need some blue sky thinking etc on the whole subject. They will claim that they never really liked the idea, and always argued against it behind the scenes. That will be the point when we know that it is at the point of collapse and there is no way back from the brink.

as Tony Benn said: “It's the same each time with progress. First they ignore you, then they say you're mad, then dangerous, then there's a pause and then you can't find anyone who disagrees with you.”

Nigel Farage is a great orator, but I agree with Zulu - he's always got one eye on the cameras, he's a vain, attention-seeking blowhard.

he is right tho - on this 

[albitz]

Go on BJ, think the unthinkable.

I predict that in a few years time,politicians on the left will start to make noises about how the EU isnt a very good thing and that we need some blue sky thinking etc on the whole subject. They will claim that they never really liked the idea, and always argued against it behind the scenes. That will be the point when we know that it is at the point of collapse and there is no way back from the brink.

as Tony Benn said: “It's the same each time with progress. First they ignore you, then they say you're mad, then dangerous, then there's a pause and then you can't find anyone who disagrees with you.”

Nigel Farage is a great orator, but I agree with Zulu - he's always got one eye on the cameras, he's a vain, attention-seeking blowhard.

he is right tho - on this 

So was Tony Bliar and it didnt do him any harm

[Banjax]

Go on BJ, think the unthinkable.

I predict that in a few years time,politicians on the left will start to make noises about how the EU isnt a very good thing and that we need some blue sky thinking etc on the whole subject. They will claim that they never really liked the idea, and always argued against it behind the scenes. That will be the point when we know that it is at the point of collapse and there is no way back from the brink.

as Tony Benn said: “It's the same each time with progress. First they ignore you, then they say you're mad, then dangerous, then there's a pause and then you can't find anyone who disagrees with you.”

Nigel Farage is a great orator, but I agree with Zulu - he's always got one eye on the cameras, he's a vain, attention-seeking blowhard.

he is right tho - on this 

So was Tony Bliar and it didnt do him any harm

true 

[Dishevelled Den]

So was Tony Bliar and it didnt do him any harm

Aah yes, but he has condemned himself by dint of his actions and words.

Would anyone in their right mind ever take anything he said with any degree of seriousness again?

He survives in an apparently comfortable way, as other like people, in this superficial world, but when the chips are eventually thrown down he will, as the others, be shown for the inconsequential beings they really are.

[albitz]

I have little doubt that in the long term there will be little good said about him, when the history books are written, and that is the one thing I am sure he will lose sleep over. He was desperate to be one of the all time greats.
He did however have a very succesful career, and timed his exit perfectly. He got out just before the s**t hit the fan.

[Nickbat]

Am I alone in thing that this speech - in terms of its delivery - bordered on the arrogant?

In my view anything to do with 'Europe' requires a measured almost forensic approach.

In my view Farage loses the import of the message by continually deriding certain personalities in the EU Parliament in this way.

The facts will always speak for themselves, there's no need to tart up the message by engaging in this eye-stabbing.

I'm afraid I think you're totally wrong on this, Zulu. Measured forensic criticism has been tried for years and has totally failed. People turn off in their droves when you calmly point out the fact that the Common Agricultural Policy and the Fishery Policy are madness in their wastage. They wouldn't even give a second thought to the illegitimacy of EU accounting.

We need to engage the common populace to the massive failings and lack of democracy in the EU. That means ditching the fireside chats and getting the message across. Was Churchill a great diplomat? I hardly think so.

Farage is telling it like it is and more power to his elbow. Besides which, foreign MEPs are always calling eurosceptics fascists, so time for their own medicine, methinks.  

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

It may surprise some here at OOF......but I actually agree with Farage up to a point. But Zulu is correct......His tone is belligerent and mocking. His "Shouty ......listen to me you Euro cretins" approach...tends to make others switch off..

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Am I alone in thing that this speech - in terms of its delivery - bordered on the arrogant?

In my view anything to do with 'Europe' requires a measured almost forensic approach.

In my view Farage loses the import of the message by continually deriding certain personalities in the EU Parliament in this way.

The facts will always speak for themselves, there's no need to tart up the message by engaging in this eye-stabbing.

I'm afraid I think you're totally wrong on this, Zulu. Measured forensic criticism has been tried for years and has totally failed. People turn off in their droves when you calmly point out the fact that the Common Agricultural Policy and the Fishery Policy are madness in their wastage. They wouldn't even give a second thought to the illegitimacy of EU accounting.

We need to engage the common populace to the massive failings and lack of democracy in the EU. That means ditching the fireside chats and getting the message across. Was Churchill a great diplomat? I hardly think so.

Farage is telling it like it is and more power to his elbow. Besides which, foreign MEPs are always calling eurosceptics fascists, so time for their own medicine, methinks.  

Churchill, ah yes the great man.  He may have been considered arrogant, and an upper class fool by many during his 1930s warnings on what was going on in Germany.  But he was absolutely on the money, as dear old Nigel could well be.  Just because somebody is passionate in their statements on what they believe in does not make them arrogant, but someone to be respected for their point of view.  The EU is unravelling, so let its weaknesses be exposed for what they are. 

The experiment is over; it has been tried.  But the vision of a United States of Europe is not yet realistic in this part of the 21st century.  Work together, yes, but let's not try and rule each other.  Germany seems to be on the brink of saying "nein!", as their patience is being stretched to the limit.

[cem_devecioglu]

It may surprise some here at OOF......but I actually agree with Farage up to a point. But Zulu is correct......His tone is belligerent and mocking. His "Shouty ......listen to me you Euro cretins" approach...tends to make others switch off..

imo only overdosed the theatral action.. however he is a politician.. 

[Dishevelled Den]

Am I alone in thing that this speech - in terms of its delivery - bordered on the arrogant?

In my view anything to do with 'Europe' requires a measured almost forensic approach.

In my view Farage loses the import of the message by continually deriding certain personalities in the EU Parliament in this way.

The facts will always speak for themselves, there's no need to tart up the message by engaging in this eye-stabbing.

I'm afraid I think you're totally wrong on this, Zulu. Measured forensic criticism has been tried for years and has totally failed. People turn off in their droves when you calmly point out the fact that the Common Agricultural Policy and the Fishery Policy are madness in their wastage. They wouldn't even give a second thought to the illegitimacy of EU accounting.

We need to engage the common populace to the massive failings and lack of democracy in the EU. That means ditching the fireside chats and getting the message across. Was Churchill a great diplomat? I hardly think so.

Farage is telling it like it is and more power to his elbow. Besides which, foreign MEPs are always calling eurosceptics fascists, so time for their own medicine, methinks.  

I'm afraid I think you're totally wrong on this, Zulu

It wouldn't be the first time (or indeed the last I have no doubt) - but I find his style vulgar and hectoring.

Had we had a lot more constructive opposition within the camp (rather than the appalling quiescence from that good-living bunch who have inhabited that place for too long) perhaps our position would have had more traction.

As for engaging the populace in awareness of the failing of this sinister arrangement - what could they really do about it? 

I think most people have a gut feeling about the danger that's beginning to loom over our continued membership; however it's certainly not helpful to motivate people on the back of pointed rhetoric as things can get out of control very quickly.

Had we a strong government then the simplest way to deal with this is for a national referendum on the matter with the proposals being derived from a calm, focussed and well reasoned analysis of just why we should either withdraw or remain.

I have always found that by going out of one's way to alienate people is generally counterproductive and limits options - and in this current climate we need more friends than enemies.

In my view national policy based on such xenophobic invective will always be questionable.

[Pitchfork]

Is Farage not a French name?

[Nickbat]

As for engaging the populace in awareness of the failing of this sinister arrangement - what could they really do about it?

Err, stop watching X-factor and sign up to the Express campaign, perchance? Vote UKIP?
The problem we have is that the three main parties are all basically europhile. If we are to get anywhere, we need to have an administration which is prepared to put this issue to a referendum. This current bunch won't as they're too scared of the outcome. We need to prepare for the next election and elect a party which will. That requires a majority popular vote. That requires the backing of the populace.

I have always found that by going out of one's way to alienate people is generally counterproductive and limits options - and in this current climate we need more friends than enemies.

Enemies? You mean Van Rompuy, Barrosso et al? We don't need them as friends as they represent the undemocratic face of the EU. Did you hear there was some applause - yes, even in the chamber - at Farage's speech? Incidentally, there are many people around the EU who feel the same as Farage, so he's only alienating europhiles, which is fine by me.

In my view national policy based on such xenophobic invective will always be questionable.

Sorry, Zulu, but that's way off mark and I'm surprised at you! 

Xenophobia is a fear/hatred of foreigners. Farage, backed no doubt by his German wife and UKIP's Argentine-born Spanish accountant, Marta Andreasen, rightly complain about the lack of democracy and accountability within the EU. He doesn't hate German citizens, Belgian citizens, or any other citizen. He rightly criticises the political classes in certain  countries (such as those in Ireland), but these classes are also criticised by their own electorate! He complains also that we have Rompuy as our so-called "President", yet he comes from a deeply-divided, ungoverned (for 6 months) small country and questions his suitability to front this massive superstate. So do I.

So, no, not xenophobic. Just telling it like it is. 

[Steve Brookman]

I agree with Nickbat!

[Dishevelled Den]

Err, stop watching X-factor and sign up to the Express campaign, perchance? Vote UKIP?
The problem we have is that the three main parties are all basically europhile. If we are to get anywhere, we need to have an administration which is prepared to put this issue to a referendum. This current bunch won't as they're too scared of the outcome. We need to prepare for the next election and elect a party which will. That requires a majority popular vote. That requires the backing of the populace.

I think a fair amount of the population is sufficiently comfortable with their daily/nightly diet of drivel to make the likelihood of a fundamental swing to a fourth party remote.  A fair proportion doesn’t seem to be able to be arsed about much sadly.

Enemies? You mean Van Rompuy, Barrosso et al? We don't need them as friends as they represent the undemocratic face of the EU. Did you hear there was some applause - yes, even in the chamber - at Farage's speech? Incidentally, there are many people around the EU who feel the same as Farage, so he's only alienating europhiles, which is fine by me.

Europe is more than the usual suspects you mention so why engage in strident outrage rather than calm measured language to encourage those in Europe, whom you rightly say are as distrustful of the present arrangements as we are, to believe that they can deal with a British representation that's unlikely to blow a collective vein when trying to put a point? 

Sorry, Zulu, but that's way off mark and I'm surprised at you! 

Xenophobia is a fear/hatred of foreigners. Farage, backed no doubt by his German wife and UKIP's Argentine-born Spanish accountant, Marta Andreasen, rightly complain about the lack of democracy and accountability within the EU. He doesn't hate German citizens, Belgian citizens, or any other citizen. He rightly criticises the political classes in certain  countries (such as those in Ireland), but these classes are also criticised by their own electorate! He complains also that we have Rompuy as our so-called "President", yet he comes from a deeply-divided, ungoverned (for 6 months) small country and questions his suitability to front this massive superstate. So do I.

So, no, not xenophobic. Just telling it like it is. 

I was thinking more of the consequences of such invective as the uptake can, quite often, result in xenophobic sentiments by those very people who follow without understanding or thinking.

I don’t think Farage has the oratory to capture the nation in the way that it must be so we can have this matter sorted out and maintain a sensible policy where Europe is concerned.

[Nickbat]

Zulu, you can see by some of the responses to this thread, as well as elsewhere, that Farage's speech has fired people up about Europe. That is a Good Thing. It would be far, far, worse if the EU machine, of which I think both you and I are concerned, was to carry on in the background with no media coverage. Indeed, that is the way it has managed to assume such powers over the past years.

It's all very well and good talking about measured criticisms and forensic analysis, but frankly that doesn't cut the mustard in this political day and age.

Farage may not be your cup of tea in terms of his oratory, but for once we see a politician who doesn't mince his words or try to weasel his way out of hard questions. To me, and many others, he represents a refreshing change. No, he's not "old-school", but sadly so many smooth-talking, terribly polite and well-mannered old-school types have turned out to be shysters. To you, he may verge on the rude, but rather a vulgar-but-honest man than a polite liar.  

A sensible policy, indeed the only sensible policy, is to return to the days of European sovereign nations joined by free trade and other agreements which are entertained on the basis of popular support. That is what Farage wants to see, and that is what I would like to see.