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[Brikhead]

...at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.

If you were to back off too suddenly, especially in a manual rwd car, it would be like pulling up the handbrake.
Also, as said, what happens if one day the rear does decide to step out on you? Are you going to be able to catch it or are you just going to panic and freeze?
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant, there is a point when everything becomes almost weightless as you fight the forces of physics with pure mechanical power...

I've spent around 15 years driving rwd transits, In my youth I've had people running for cover on the pavements because they were convinced I was about to come careering off the road.
 

[mantahatch]

i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit 

Funnily enough I assume you are refering to my earler post. I too passed the advanced drving test. I have also had advanced skid pan training for a week.

As I said, "I would not do ths with other road users about" and "safely of course"

 

[2woody]

yep, Transits are really good fun - all the good handling stuff, but at slow speeds.

One of the reasons that I like Omegas is that they are quite heavy and react quite slowly - which matches my own less-than-perfect reactions.

[Vamps]

i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit 

 

I saw a thread on this forum where some guy was complaining about the Omega's steering and big turning circle saying to someone "you ever tried driving the car at full pelt mate?" and I just thought "you idiot". (God knows what he really means by this) Even though the police used to use them, trying to really push it in an Omega just seems dangerous (of course going too fast in any car is dangerous). I mean at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.

The Omega does feel like it has a big turning circle but maybe that's down to the length of it?

large empty car park in the snow
c,mon

Fair enough but how often does it snow? (probably more in Scotland I suppose)

It is a big car, but I do know that it has a tighter turning circle than a Citroen C4 Grand Picasso, a particular 'U' turn that I do most day's is no problem in the Mig, occasionally had to 'shunt' the Citroen.......

[Andy B]

....
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant,  ...

It is, it's called momentum!      Far more difficult to 'catch' 1700kg of Omega that wants to do its own thing than an eg 800kg Smart ......

[Vamps]

...at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.

If you were to back off too suddenly, especially in a manual rwd car, it would be like pulling up the handbrake.
Also, as said, what happens if one day the rear does decide to step out on you? Are you going to be able to catch it or are you just going to panic and freeze?
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant, there is a point when everything becomes almost weightless as you fight the forces of physics with pure mechanical power...

I've spent around 15 years driving rwd transits, In my youth I've had people running for cover on the pavements because they were convinced I was about to come careering off the road.
 

I 360'd mine twice on some black Ice coming down a hill on a 3 lane road.......  I missed the broken down petrol tanker, the reason I braked, the car coming the other way both kerbs and fences and ended up pointing the right way......Shocked would be an understatement.......I remember stopping and collapsing over the steering wheel with relief...........

Must admit that Me and my mates all had Fords, and rwd of course and often used to go playing in the snow on an old bit of the A177 long since bypassed. It had 3 lanes and huge grass verges so little chance of doing any real damage to the car.....this did help to develop car control as well as being great fun.....I became and advanced driver some years later, 1991 iirc..... And have full bike, PSV and HGV or what ever they a called these days......

[Brikhead]

Far more difficult to 'catch' 1700kg of Omega that wants to do its own thing than an eg 800kg Smart ......

I'm talking about if you actively want the car to loose traction, not when it catches you out unexpectedly. There is a point when the weight shifts as the car looses traction, you can keep it balanced and it does feel as if you are floating... works with empty 7.5 tonners too!





1700 k.g.'s, damn I'm glad I didn't know that the other day.
 

[bluey]

Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.

It's much easier to achieve a tight turning circle if you haven't got to drive the front wheels and fit a transverse engine and gearbox in though.

Kevin

You're right in that using a transverse package can hamper the turning circle (The Rover 600 was awful for this) but I'd partly disagree with that Kevin.  It's not so much the use of that configuration but the placement of the wheels relative to it and from there the available space for wheel angle.  If the old Mini was 6" wider and that width was all inside the front arches then it would potentially have a much greater wheel angle, and thus smaller turning circle.

Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.

[Andy B]

....
1700 k.g.'s, damn I'm glad I didn't know that the other day.
 

Actually not all are, but they're not far off by the time you get behind the wheel & fill it up.
Page 223 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.reynolds983/Manuals/Omega2002Manual.pdf 

[Martin_1962]

Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.

It's much easier to achieve a tight turning circle if you haven't got to drive the front wheels and fit a transverse engine and gearbox in though.

Kevin

You're right in that using a transverse package can hamper the turning circle (The Rover 600 was awful for this) but I'd partly disagree with that Kevin.  It's not so much the use of that configuration but the placement of the wheels relative to it and from there the available space for wheel angle.  If the old Mini was 6" wider and that width was all inside the front arches then it would potentially have a much greater wheel angle, and thus smaller turning circle.

Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.

Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD

[Kevin Wood]

Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.

Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/

Kevin

[albitz]

I would add that when you open the taps a bit too quickly on a bike on a damp road and the back starts coming round,things get very interesting indeed. The best cure for constipation known to man. ......I have had it happen a few times over the years and to my surprise, never came off in the process, I have no idea how tbh - it just straightened out and carried on before I had time to think about it. Just instinctivley rolled the throttle off. It was so violent on one occasion it put my back out for a few days.

[cem_devecioglu]

well .. here is my opinion..

with stiffer suspension and manual box, rwd can have some advantages..

but suspensions designed for comfort , an autobox with long ratios and a heavy weight, you loose most of those (although I drive auto like manual)  :-/

however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..
(some modern cars minimizes the requirement  as they have esp and ebd and some other related technologies)


in urgent conditions when you skid if you dont have the required practice amd skills to give the necessary contra and the combination of accelerator/brake
usage both you and your car and even some other cars and their owners would pay for your incompetence..

and this practicing must be done regularly  for you not to loose your abilities and reflexes..

and another fact is I dont like to damage my expensive tires tread which will be necessary for urgent cases..so I prefer not to test them on dry, may be only once to see the limits..

[Kevin Wood]

however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..

Well worth doing a skid pan session, IMHO. You cannot hope to regain control of any car you lose, intentionally or on purpose, if it's a new experience for you.

You can't practice it on the road. You can't really practice it off the road unless you can reduce the friction between tyres and ground to such an extent that it's going to happen slow enough to learn from, and slow enough not to cause damage when you fail!

Another point about RWD cars, IMHO, is that they don't have to be uncomfortably firm to handle well whereas FWD cars with a decent amount of power are all over the place if the suspension isn't rock hard.

Or, to summarise: FWD? rearrange the words "turd, polish, can't".

Kevin

[aaronjb]

however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..

Well worth doing a skid pan session, IMHO. You cannot hope to regain control of any car you lose, intentionally or on purpose, if it's a new experience for you.

Indeed - there are quite a number of well priced driver training days run around the country; some in which you use your own car, some in which you use an instructional vehicle.. highly recommended.

Then you can graduate to track days and get your kicks in relative safety without being around other road users