Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Paul M]

7.7 from 3.0l Auto without trying too hard.  I would say a good .5s better for manual, more if you 'try'

Easy. I've had 7.0 from mine, and that wasn't really ragging the tits right off it (like 5,000 RPM on the clutch lol). Manufacturer's figures are usually conservative IME. It's imperative to switch off traction control, otherwise you'll be struggling to match, let alone beat, standard figures.

[TheBoy]

7.7 from 3.0l Auto without trying too hard.  I would say a good .5s better for manual, more if you 'try'

Easy. I've had 7.0 from mine, and that wasn't really ragging the tits right off it (like 5,000 RPM on the clutch lol). Manufacturer's figures are usually conservative IME. It's imperative to switch off traction control, otherwise you'll be struggling to match, let alone beat, standard figures.

I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly.  Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

[Paul M]

I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly.  Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

This much I know very well, about 10% slip I believe is considered optimal. I have practiced lots on many cars, and the Omega traction control is absolutely woeful for quick getaways. As soon as it detects slip it kills the power. A little slip on initial engagement of the power is necessary to prevent the engine bogging down.

I control the slip using my right foot, and it seems I can do a far better job of it than VX's crappy electronics  

Incidentally the stability control in my BMW is much less intrusive, I don't usually bother switching it off when I want a quick launch. It also has a hidden mode where it will only brake individual wheels, not cut engine power.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can match 7.0 secs to 60 with TC switched on -- I'll be highly impressed. Put simply, as with most electronic gizmos it's a safety mod for incompetent drivers, not a performance feature.

[raximax]

i agree the tc on the meega is cr*p it totaly kills the power. if you driving in the wet with it on an comming off a circle or at the lights any thing could pass you   on the pluss side its should not kill you in a spin

[TheBoy]

I disagree - if you are pounding the TC so hard that it is backing off engine, you haven't controlled the slip properly.  Fastest get away (with road cars) is just on the verge of wheelspin

This much I know very well, about 10% slip I believe is considered optimal. I have practiced lots on many cars, and the Omega traction control is absolutely woeful for quick getaways. As soon as it detects slip it kills the power. A little slip on initial engagement of the power is necessary to prevent the engine bogging down.

I control the slip using my right foot, and it seems I can do a far better job of it than VX's crappy electronics  

Incidentally the stability control in my BMW is much less intrusive, I don't usually bother switching it off when I want a quick launch. It also has a hidden mode where it will only brake individual wheels, not cut engine power.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can match 7.0 secs to 60 with TC switched on -- I'll be highly impressed. Put simply, as with most electronic gizmos it's a safety mod for incompetent drivers, not a performance feature.

Anyone got a manual 3.0l I can try with

10% slip is too much imho...   ...and as I've said, the car will allow an element of slip before cutting power. The tiniest 'tyre saver' type wheelspin is OK, but if you're giving it so much that the engine starts cutting (remember it tries to apply brakes first), you've got the power/clutch wrong.  Road tyres do not respond well to wheelspin, so keeping that to a minimum is essential.

If you've given it too much that engine cut starts to happen, as with most early Bosch (and others) TC, you need to lift right off and try again, as as soon as spin stops, it will lift restriction on engine power, and if an inexperienced driver has floored it to overcome the power loss, it will try the 207bhp again, causing slip, causing power loss etc...


BMW TC is bloody useless. Look in the snow, all the beemers have to switch it off.  Had to turn it off in beemers myself in slippery conditions, never had to turn off in my Omegas (only gets turned off when I what to act a idiot )

[Kevin Wood]

I have to say that, whilst the Omega traction control is not nice when it cuts in with a bootload of throttle on tarmac (it backs off harshly enough to cause a little lift-off oversteer at times, so it's counterproductive, IMO) it's very good at negotiating slippy surfaces at low speed. It put a mate's 4x4 to shame recently when climbing a grassy bank. I think on tarmac it all happens too quickly to get the benefit of braking the slipping wheel and it just shuts down the power. At a slower speed with less traction you can feel one wheel start to slip, hear the ABS pump start up, and the traction comes back after a second or so.

Kevin

[Martin_1962]

My technique

1) Use a high octane super petrol
2) Warm it up, practice a bit, get the engine up to 90 deg
3) Use sports mode
4) Take it to stall speed then floor throttle at the same time as you come off the brake.

[Paul M]

Anyone got a manual 3.0l I can try with

10% slip is too much imho...   ...and as I've said, the car will allow an element of slip before cutting power. The tiniest 'tyre saver' type wheelspin is OK, but if you're giving it so much that the engine starts cutting (remember it tries to apply brakes first), you've got the power/clutch wrong.  Road tyres do not respond well to wheelspin, so keeping that to a minimum is essential.

If you've given it too much that engine cut starts to happen, as with most early Bosch (and others) TC, you need to lift right off and try again, as as soon as spin stops, it will lift restriction on engine power, and if an inexperienced driver has floored it to overcome the power loss, it will try the 207bhp again, causing slip, causing power loss etc...


BMW TC is bloody useless. Look in the snow, all the beemers have to switch it off.  Had to turn it off in beemers myself in slippery conditions, never had to turn off in my Omegas (only gets turned off when I what to act a idiot )

Not in my experience, I've tried it many times with TC  on, and the only way I can avoid it cutting power is to pussyfoot the launch which ends up being slower. I don't know how it affects the auto cars, I suspect less so due to the torque converter allowing the engine speed to be partly independent of the wheel speed, but on a manual I can more or less guarantee it will slow you down. Even if you launch perfectly just preventing the TC from coming on, the shift from 1st to 2nd at full pelt usually gives a small chirp from the tyres as the power is abruptly reapplied. No problem normally, the tyres don't actually start spinning, but the bloody TCS often decides to cut the power FFS!

Quite simply, it's a reactive system and a crap one at that -- when it does cut power, it does so abruptly rather than a slight backing off. That's what makes it so ineffective as a form of launch control (something it was never designed for). Interestingly enough it can't cut power when my car is running on propane (so presumably it works by fuel cut), meaning I can still make use of the torque-biasing feature without getting the power-killing. I can get faster acceleration on propane than on petrol if the TCS is switched on, even with the 10% power reduction!

I know several Omega owners who are quicker, more experienced, drivers than I am, two of which are driving manual 3.0s. Both of them switch the TC off every time, because they know they can accelerate quicker without it -- not to mention control the car better at the limit. It's a very basic safety feature with no intention of improving the car's performance; it's solely there to prevent inexperienced RWD drivers from throwing it into a hedge because of power oversteer.

Oh and the stability control system in my particular BMW is a far better system, it basically keeps the car straight with minimal intrusion -- it will actually let you get it a little sideways first, likewise it will allow a little wheelspin too. I don't know about snow performance as I don't live in the Alps but for high-performance street driving in good conditions (which is the subject here after all) it's far superior. The Omega's TCS may well be better in snow or slippery surfaces, that much I don't dispute, but it's crap at launching in good conditions.

[TheBoy]

PaulM - presumably yours is retail MV6, hence later than 1998?

I agree entirely, when it cuts the power, it does so in a barbaric way, and reapplies full power (if foot still hard down).  But it shouldn't cut in until a reasonable amount of wheelspin cuts in.

I've driven a fair few Omega manuals, and never found it intrusive, though I wouldn't do a race start without owners permission (unless it was Tunnie's ). Certainly had a bit of wheelspin from them.

Using my auto as an example, simply by virtue its my car, and driven as such, I can get far more wheelspin than is healthy for a quick getaway before power cuts. Obviously, do not get a wheelspin 1st to 2nd in that though.

I think I can imagine what you mean - there is a petrol station near my work that has concrete forecourt. Its on a fast dual carriageway, so you are trying to boot it on slippery (diesel covered) concrete. If I floor it there, the car goes nowhere fast - annoying.  I have tried it in other cars, and with mine with TC off, it is increbibly difficult to get a quick getaway there, just not enough traction, strangely FWD does seem better (probably the driven wheels getting on the clean road a couple of meters before RWD can).  But I know how much booting I can give it out of their, so tend to keep TC on.

The TC is a useful safety aid, esp for RWD that can catch out inexperienced drivers, and (imho) has little effect on fast driving.  Overstep what the chassis can handle, and it will punish your progress harshly.

The Bosch ABS/TC system used is quite old, and is not as good as most more modern systems though.

Having driven many BMWs (come from a family of beemer owners - one of my brothers used to be able to get good discount due to a joint venture), even their more modern ones are hopeless in slippery conditions (the time you want such systems).  I would hope anyone driving quickly would have the skills to not need the safety systems on a car, so I think less relevent under those conditions.  I think anyone racing around and actually using the car's stability control is being very careless (forgetting about the irresponsibility of racing around anyway ).


And yes, the TC on 1998 onwards Omega (if applying brake to spinning wheel doesn't stop the slip) will ask engine to reduce power, which the ecu does by cutting injectors to 2 (i think) cylinders...

[Paul M]

PaulM - presumably yours is retail MV6, hence later than 1998?

I agree entirely, when it cuts the power, it does so in a barbaric way, and reapplies full power (if foot still hard down).  But it shouldn't cut in until a reasonable amount of wheelspin cuts in.

I've driven a fair few Omega manuals, and never found it intrusive, though I wouldn't do a race start without owners permission (unless it was Tunnie's ). Certainly had a bit of wheelspin from them.

Using my auto as an example, simply by virtue its my car, and driven as such, I can get far more wheelspin than is healthy for a quick getaway before power cuts. Obviously, do not get a wheelspin 1st to 2nd in that though.

I think I can imagine what you mean - there is a petrol station near my work that has concrete forecourt. Its on a fast dual carriageway, so you are trying to boot it on slippery (diesel covered) concrete. If I floor it there, the car goes nowhere fast - annoying.  I have tried it in other cars, and with mine with TC off, it is increbibly difficult to get a quick getaway there, just not enough traction, strangely FWD does seem better (probably the driven wheels getting on the clean road a couple of meters before RWD can).  But I know how much booting I can give it out of their, so tend to keep TC on.

The TC is a useful safety aid, esp for RWD that can catch out inexperienced drivers, and (imho) has little effect on fast driving.  Overstep what the chassis can handle, and it will punish your progress harshly.

The Bosch ABS/TC system used is quite old, and is not as good as most more modern systems though.

Having driven many BMWs (come from a family of beemer owners - one of my brothers used to be able to get good discount due to a joint venture), even their more modern ones are hopeless in slippery conditions (the time you want such systems).  I would hope anyone driving quickly would have the skills to not need the safety systems on a car, so I think less relevent under those conditions.  I think anyone racing around and actually using the car's stability control is being very careless (forgetting about the irresponsibility of racing around anyway ).


And yes, the TC on 1998 onwards Omega (if applying brake to spinning wheel doesn't stop the slip) will ask engine to reduce power, which the ecu does by cutting injectors to 2 (i think) cylinders...

Yes, mini-facelift retail MV6. Bog standard 17" wheels & 235/45 tyre size too.

I can only assume that yours has a different revision of TCS software to mine, as mine definitely seems over-keen to cut the power. If the wheel starts to slip for whatever reason, I can feel it and start to back off the throttle, but by then the electronics have already decided to cut the power -- even though I've lifted off by say 30%, it feels like the throttle has been snapped shut then opened again. Not what you need for good acceleration, it totally bogs down the engine! Others with similar manual 3.0 Omegas agree with my assessment, although I think both their cars are older (I know one definitely is).

I generally don't use my BMW in slippery conditions, the tyres are far too wide (265/35x18 on 9.5" wide wheels at the rear) so even with the best gizmos in the world it's never going to perform well. But in normal driving I leave the DSC switched on, it's unobtrusive enough that I generally forget about it. I've never relied on it to bail me out, usually when I slide it I'm doing so deliberately. But once it did bail me out when there was some crap spilled on the road (probably diesel) on the exit of a quick roundabout -- back end stepped out totally unexpectedly, and by the time I'd steered into it the car had already started straightening itself up. It wasn't hugely out of shape so I'd have almost certainly caught it anyway but it reacted faster than I did. The beauty of DSC is that if the car starts to slide for whatever reason (even when power isn't applied) it can usually correct it. I certainly don't rely on it but I'm happy that it's there just in case. Traction control, on the other hand, I couldn't care less for, I find it's more likely to get me into trouble than bail me out of it.

Strangely enough I find the ABS on the Omega works fine, it doesn't come in too early unlike some other cars I've owned (which I'm convinced were actually lengthening my stopping distance due to the over-zealous ABS). I'd say it's pretty much on a par with the BMW setup, even though the braking system itself is a lot weaker.

On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!

[Taxi_Driver]

Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

Not going to do torque converter any favours.

Better software on autobox i think is worth a couple of tenths...

Agree.....but should be ok if not done for more than 15-20 secs.......more than this than you run the risk of it overheating and doing damage.

[TheBoy]

On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!

Been there on the ZX10 (being older gives all its power roughly all in one hit, unlike the R1, which is softened by the injection system, making it smoother and a better ride), though only time I've come off it was in dry, fine condition  

ZX10, monster in the dry, utterly lethal in the wet.  And bloody heavy to pick up  

[TheBoy]

Cheers everyone, I think i will be going for the Foot brake technique, sports mode and prolly some high octane fuel, and hope for the best! will let you know what she does!!

Am I likeley to damage anything holding the footbrake while flooring it? if so I might just let it do its own thing! dont wanna come all the way back from Santa Pod on the back of a low loader! hehe

Cheers

Not going to do torque converter any favours.

Better software on autobox i think is worth a couple of tenths...

Agree.....but should be ok if not done for more than 15-20 secs.......more than this than you run the risk of it overheating and doing damage.

I think you would be shocked at how how the TC gets, even during normal driving...

[Kevin Wood]

I think you would be shocked at how how the TC gets, even during normal driving...

Absolutely. If it's stalled with the brakes on it's soaking up 100% of the engine output, which probably isn't huge at 2K rpm or so, but it's going to be many tens of kilowatts on a V6. Do it for the second or two between staging and the off but for any longer I'd be worried, and only use enough throttle to reach stalling speed, not a whole bootful. Make sure the ATF is kept clean and fresh too!

Let it idle for a minute or two after the run to keep the fluid circulating through the cooler too, rather than just shutting down.

Kevin

[Paul M]

On a similar note... when you've ridden an R1 on semi-slick tyres in pissing rain (got caught in it 150 miles from home a few weeks ago) you soon learn how precious traction is!

Been there on the ZX10 (being older gives all its power roughly all in one hit, unlike the R1, which is softened by the injection system, making it smoother and a better ride), though only time I've come off it was in dry, fine condition  

ZX10, monster in the dry, utterly lethal in the wet.  And bloody heavy to pick up  

I wouldn't like to imagine! Worst part was coming over Glenshee, it's a steep, twisty climb up a small mountain (you pass a ski resort at the top) then similar on the way down. Great fun in the dry, but trying to do hairpin bends uphill in that rain was a challenge! As soon as I applied any power the back wheel wanted to step out . It's taught me one thing -- as much as I'm a dry weather biker, I'm buying a more suitable tyre for the rain in preperation for the next time I get caught out

I've yet to drop a bike, surprisingly enough. Closest I came was stationary on my parents' driveway, it was when I just bought my SV650 winter bike. The guy who sold it to me was only about 10 miles from my folks' so I asked him to ride it up and I'd drive him home in the car. Job done, got back and went to take the bike out, that was when I discovered he'd parked it facing down a slight hill. Never really thought anything of it, but as soon as I touched it, the bike rolled forward and off the side stand . Thankfully I was standing to the left of it so I quickly grabbed the brake just as my leg got jammed under it! It was down about 45 degrees, surprisingly difficult to lift as I couldn't move without letting go of the brake. Glad it only weighs about 170 Kg!