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[OhmyOmega]

Hi - feeling a bit lost.
Replaced cam belt -eventually.  Initially tried to do without a kit but horrendous pinking and ran deardfully.  

Got the Shealey kit and after much tinkering got a consistent result in that all timing marks came back to the same point on 2 revolutions but...

Cam 1 & 2 spot on.  Cams 3-4 slightly wall eyed.  With cam 3 exactly on the mark came for was 1/3 to 1/3 a tooth past its mark.  While I could adjust 1&2 and 3&4 in relation to crank and each other I could not adjust 3&4 in relation to each other so compromised but splitting the difference.  Cam 3 just before and Cam 4 just after the timing marks on the tool.

Car starts but runs rough - no power, won't go over 30mph and the eml is on.

During the fitting saga (about 4-5 attempts complete rebuild each time) the engine was started once with just the cam belt on and no sensors and twice with all the sensors connected but without the ram air built up.  

The eml codes are

94 Hall sensor voltage high
73 Mass air flow sensor voltage low
57 Idle air control voltage low
129 EG valve feedback voltage low.

I have checked and rechecked all the connections and it is still pinking and sounds rough.

So that leads to some questions;

1) Do allw the cams have to be exactly on the mark or is there so latitude and if no how do I adjust cam 3 agans cam 4?
2) Is the rough running likely to be engine management or timing.
3) What do the codes mean.  What can I do to check the componets are working.

Cost is a real issue here so I don't want to go down the line of just replacing stuff only to find it the problem is not resolved.

I would be really greatful for some ideas as to what to do next.

[JamesV6CDX]

Oh lord. Need to be methodical here.

First thing, if the timing isn't 100% spot on with all cams, don't run it. Can you pop the timing cover off and show us pics of the alignment tool on the cams, with the crank locked at TDC?

Re the fault codes, if you ran it without sensors plugged in, you'll store a few! The thing to do would be to check everything is home, clear the rogue codes, and see what returns.

[OhmyOmega]

Hi James
Yeah I know about the starting but that was done before I looked at the forum and realised the importance of the kit.  I had the assistance of an experienced mechanic - but they had not done a V6 kit before.  But then I guess you knew that.  

Can't get it all stipped down tonight will post photos as soon as a I can.

You suggest clearing the codes - how will I do that?  Does that entail getting a garage to do it?

Many thanks for you assistance

[MV6Man]

If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.

[Big_Roger]

Hi,
Although all the camshaft marks should be lined up exactly, as James says, I would not have thought that the miss alignment you have would have made the difference to running you describe. I have changed belts on cars that on preliminary checking prior to taking any old belt off, have been further out than you describe, and they were running OK. I am sure you have more of a problem than just slightly out on cam marking.

I wonder with all your previous attempts you have got one of the 3 or 4 cams on the wrong marks. You will see that all the cams have more than one set of marks on them. If you have a Haynes manual, it explains what the different marks are for. (For if the wheels are fitted to inlet or exhaust cams etc)

If you don't have a Haynes, I would get one.
I presume you have not taken off any of the camshaft drive wheels.
I think you are going to have to go right back to the beginning and follow directions from refitting the camshafts etc and see if you have all the cams in the right position. Then put the belt on and see if marks line up.

I have only done 7 cambelt changes, (not all on my car) but I have never found one that I couldn't get all marks lined up perfectly.

Have you been working on any part of the HT system, or damaged any leads to Knock sensors etc.

Until you get this running somewhere near right, you will get all manner of codes. When it is right, the codes will go and EML light will go out. Running it without everything in place will have put all manner of codes up anyway.

When I fixed the problem of a missfire, my EML didn't go out untill I had covered about 20 miles, so don't be too hasty on the codes.

Have patience, and think logically where you may have gone wrong.

Roger

[OhmyOmega]

Humm thank you.  Yes I have the haynes manual and I have also been trough the guidance that came with the cam belt and the Sealey manual I downloaded for the timing and locking kit.  I am pretty sure that the nearside bank is set to the correct marks.  Both on 3/4 though now I come to think of it the 1&2 cams have separate marks for 1 & 2 about 60o apart but not so on 3/4.  That seems odd but that is the way the manual describes.  Still now you mention it there is doubt in my mind.  The question is I guess is there anything other than the timing that could give the result I am seeing and how would I know?

Oh dear - this is looking like a saga in he making, as it if wasn't already.

[jonathanh]

Sounds to me if Big roger may have the answer.  I'd focus on double checking the belt first: the fault codes are a subsuduary problem at this stage: probably thrown up by starting without various stuff plugged in.  Logically, if the belt is not right the every time you start up you risk the whole engine.  there is less risk in starting if you have a fault code stored.

I've just dug my haynes manual out:  look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks.  the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.

I ran into some trouble on a cambelt refit and the best thing to do is to stop take your time and have a cuppa: trying to rush through it will cause more probs.  

Do post pics and progress on here.  the guys on here (I don't count myself it that!!!) really know their stuff so you will get through it

[JamesV6CDX]

If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.

It's non volatile memory, you need a tool to clear the codes...

[jonathanh]

If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.

It's non volatile memory, you need a tool to clear the codes...

or 20 fault free starts and will self clear.  Agree disconnecting batt will not do it.  

[OhmyOmega]

I've just dug my haynes manual out:  look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks.  the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.

Thank you for making me look at the manual.  The picture on 2C.4 fig 3.5b shows EXACTLY the same misalignment I had on my belt and also show how it was when I last put it together.   Notice in the picture that Cam 3 is a tad before and Cam 4 is a tad after the mark  - and that allowing for paralax.

Having seen that I really don't think it is the timing.

WSY all!

Please!


Pretty please

[TheBoy]

If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.

That won't clear them.

[jonathanh]

I've just dug my haynes manual out:  look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks.  the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.

Thank you for making me look at the manual.  The picture on 2C.4 fig 3.5b shows EXACTLY the same misalignment I had on my belt and also show how it was when I last put it together.   Notice in the picture that Cam 3 is a tad before and Cam 4 is a tad after the mark  - and that allowing for paralax.

Having seen that I really don't think it is the timing.

WSY all!

Please!


Pretty please

Yep, see what you mean.  The correct way of checking the cam timing is with the timing tool in your sealey kit - the cam timing marks should line up almost perfectly with the notches in that tool.  also in 3.5b, you can see that there are two marks on each cam:  Bank 3 is on the left hand mark, bank 4 on the right hand mark.

Cams 1 and 2 also have two notches.  Cam 1 should be on notch 1, cam 2 on notch 2.

I would not worry at all about a slight misalignment with the back cam cover marks - they are a rough guide: it is the alignment tool that you should rely on

[OhmyOmega]

Hi Jonathan.  Fair point.  I should have made it clear that I had the same degree of error on the Sealey timing gauge.  

From what I am hearing the slight misalignment between 3 & 4 is not enough to get the poor running and pinking.  That said I now need some clues as to what else it could be.

[jonathanh]

Hi Jonathan.  Fair point.  I should have made it clear that I had the same degree of error on the Sealey timing gauge.  

From what I am hearing the slight misalignment between 3 & 4 is not enough to get the poor running and pinking.  That said I now need some clues as to what else it could be.

o.k. you can clear your fault codes by turning the ignition on 20 times.  no need to fully start it, just need to turn on and let the system self check.  This should clear the old codes and may leave you with a better idea of the current problems.  

Make sure you have pushed all multiplugs fully home - some of mine were quite stiff.  

[Kevin Wood]

Cams 3 and 4 can only be a whole tooth out as there is no adjustment between them. If the error is not a whole tooth there's nothing you can do about it, and it may just be down to the fact that the belt is not evenly tensioned. Check that the tensioner marks are set correctly and, if it's a fraction of a tooth, I wouldn't worry about it.

I'd double check that everything is back together OK. Check particularly that the IAT sensor and front multiram solenoid are not swapped over as the connector is the same. Also check that the wire that runs down to the driver's side knock sensor didn't get trapped under the aux belt tensiner bracket when it was refitted.

.. then see which trouble codes persist.

Kevin