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[Martin_1962]

No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.

My first PC drive was a 2nd gen DVD burner so not cheap

[Paul M]

How interesting.... it now claims my product key is invalid (after I've been using it for about 6 months) and that "You may be a victim of software counterfeiting". A bit rich considering this copy came from the Microsoft Developer Network, I wonder if they realise they're counterfeiting their own products?

So I am currently running in reduced functionality mode, until it kicks me out, with a helpful "This copy of Windows is not Genuine" shown on the bottom right of my 2nd display (the rest of the display is black). Oh well.... I'll need to contact my MSDN administrator to find out what's going on, but for the forseeable future I think I'll be running back to my Mac -- it "just works".

[Martin_1962]

Well I have banned WGA from both my home and my work PCs

It works fine without it and I see no need for it on my machine, it could get a false reading and that is ALL the reason I need to ban it

[Paul M]

No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.

It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.

[Paul M]

Well I have banned WGA from both my home and my work PCs

It works fine without it and I see no need for it on my machine, it could get a false reading and that is ALL the reason I need to ban it

I do that with my XP machines (which had the side benefit of it not offering to install IE7, although that no longer applies) but I'm not sure it's possible with Vista. This thing is so filled to the brim with DRM crap that I very much doubt it  

[TheBoy]

Paul M - Forgetting games for a moment (which do use an awful protection mechanism, as its intrusive), Windows and DVDs etc use a (almost) seemless system.  The Protection/DRM does not get in the way of legal use (forgetting the WPA glitch with Vista that only shows up under certain sequence of events). DRM is not evil, as suggested on virtually every Linux site, but necessary.  It needs to be seemless though (as like region coding and CSS on DVD) to be effective...

It is my experience, no matter on the cost, certain types of people will refuse to pay for electronic software/video/music, even if very, very cheap.  This can be seem if you linger around the DVD section in the local library - you'll quite often here people say they won't hire for £2.50, but download it instead.

I agree this has gone on before broadband - many from my generation will remember using tape to tape machines to copy computer games which came on cassettes back then.  Broadband has made this worse (back then, somebody within your group had to buy the original - internet has made this not necessary), and has allowed p2p distribution.

[Paul M]

Paul M - Forgetting games for a moment (which do use an awful protection mechanism, as its intrusive), Windows and DVDs etc use a (almost) seemless system.  The Protection/DRM does not get in the way of legal use (forgetting the WPA glitch with Vista that only shows up under certain sequence of events). DRM is not evil, as suggested on virtually every Linux site, but necessary.  It needs to be seemless though (as like region coding and CSS on DVD) to be effective...

It's not seamless from where I'm sitting, facing a "This copy of Windows is not genuine" screen with nothing more than crappy IE7 to keep me company

DRM on music is a total PITA that restricts my fair usage of it. Case in point -- I store my music (in lossless FLAC format) on a file server in my house so I can listen to it either in my bedroom or in the living room. If I want to put it onto a portable player I have a script to transcode the desired albums into MP3 format, and I load them on. If I'm short on space I can transcode them from the FLAC files again to a lower bitrate. With DRM I'd have to buy 3 copies of the same music, and yet another copy if I decide I'd rather have the music in AAC to save space on my portable player. Why bother when I can just go download a DRM-free copy at no cost? Yes I'd be infringing copyright by doing so, but it eliminates all the DRM so is a much better solution. I'm not surprised if people chose to download an illegal copy even if they're perfectly willing to pay for a good quality, unencumbered legal download. Becuase that's generally what you get when you buy a CD, and downloads are barely cheaper (if at all) even though distribution costs are much lower.

It is my experience, no matter on the cost, certain types of people will refuse to pay for electronic software/video/music, even if very, very cheap.  This can be seem if you linger around the DVD section in the local library - you'll quite often here people say they won't hire for £2.50, but download it instead.

Agreed, and these people are a lost cause anyway. In the extremely unlikely event of 100% effective access controls, these people will more than likely just do without rather than pay. So from a business perspective you're gaining nothing by locking them out, while at the same time pissing off legitimate customers who *are* prepared to pay. OK you can talk about the moral gains of preventing people not entitled to it getting your content, but that doesn't make you money.

I agree this has gone on before broadband - many from my generation will remember using tape to tape machines to copy computer games which came on cassettes back then.  Broadband has made this worse (back then, somebody within your group had to buy the original - internet has made this not necessary), and has allowed p2p distribution.

Maybe we should go back to punch cards, can't be so easy to mass duplicate those  

[TheBoy]

The music one is difficult to do.  If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?).  I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.

So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?

I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).


My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM.  Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.

[theolodian]

The music one is difficult to do.  If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?).  I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.

So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?

I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).


My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM.  Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.

Apple is dropping DRM from iTunes downloads.  Not enabled now if you buy the whole album online.  Others are going that way, including artists like Prince and Madonna.  They are concentrating on revenues from concerts and merchandising.  Attitudes are quickly getting more realistic, at least for some.

As for software, I'll be trying out Open Orifice soon.  MS defo isn't getting any more of my money on that one.

[TheBoy]

The music one is difficult to do.  If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?).  I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.

So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?

I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).


My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM.  Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.

Apple is dropping DRM from iTunes downloads.  Not enabled now if you buy the whole album online.  Others are going that way, including artists like Prince and Madonna.  They are concentrating on revenues from concerts and merchandising.  Attitudes are quickly getting more realistic, at least for some.

As for software, I'll be trying out Open Orifice soon.  MS defo isn't getting any more of my money on that one.

The big artists who have already made their fortune can afford to give away music, as thye will always pack out a large venue.  Many bands can't.  Though I suspect their generousity is only a temporary stunt, though I applaud their experiment, despite thinking its the wrong direction.

[Martin_1962]

No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.

It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.

Legit games, with naughty patches

[TheBoy]

No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.

It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.

Legit games, with naughty patches

Trouble is, the naughty patches mean a significant majority won't buy the games legit...

[Martin_1962]

Record labels - in general a bunch of tossers!

They expect us to buy manufactured pap but don't sign the deals for good bands.

I used to know two REALLY GOOD NWOBHM bands and they both tried for years to get  a deal and both were excellent - one even has a sort of tribute band :-?

Yet at the same time I think about 5 or 6 or so got a decent deal and most bands went down the self financed single and taped off radio route.

One of the singles I had a few of I sold one for over £20.

Got a free album of the same band off the producers of it though - I am mentioned on the insert and my photos were used

[Martin_1962]

No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.

It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.

Legit games, with naughty patches

Trouble is, the naughty patches mean a significant majority won't buy the games legit...

Not when it is a patch and you still need the install - I had to do three or four unoffical patches as well

[justme]

Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.

WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying.  Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't.  It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.

Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.


Apple make their money on hardware.  As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price.  The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.

That was so even before broadband. Microsoft emplyees have always made thier software available before MS can get it to the end of the production line. The competition is how fast they can get it out, was it XP they had to pull from production when they discovered that Tywan was listed before China, caused a lot of embarresment.
Isnt the back bone of the web unix based, very very raerly re-booted, that would be a novelty for windows users.

No matter how good the protection manufacturers use, there are better coders out there  than they employ or will ever employ. I have never seen a failure to date.

A lot of coders disagree with MS and support the open licence, which is why MS does everything it can to throw a spanner in the works. local and government depts being advised to use open source rather than MS products, think of the revenue it would loose. But of course having the so-called IT people to use it is the biggest problem to it's use.

I look at it no diffrent to OOF a collection of people with the same interest. Coders are no different they live & breath coding, they reverse engineer all windows products and will show you where DOS still plays a part they know the product better than MS. It is truly amazing to see what a rushian can do with even a 282 absolutly truly unbelivable.


And no I am not a coder but still prefer the command line.