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[cem_devecioglu]

Hope your lad is OK Dave.

Trying to get the Highways department to admit fault is very hard. I tried about 4 years ago and I was only for a new wheel and tyre but with no luck. They said they had inspected the hole in the road and work was planed before I went down it to which my solicitor told me to give up.

Pete,
Thanks, he's OK, 3 broken ribs...  His passenger had a few nights in hospital, observation for suspected damage to his liver, seatbelt injuries etc  We are not sure of the other drivers injurys, we have tried to find out to no avail.

Speaking generally now, TBH we don't want to go down the route of claiming etc, we just believe that the state of that road, it's approaching roads, it's signage or lack of, is very mitigating in this instance....  I respect what some of you have stated and it's not as though it's a financial issue, he's well insured, it's not that we want more than we deserve, it's just making the council accountable and the only way they understand is being hit financially..

Keep the opinions / advice coming :-?...  It's valuable at times like this  

   He needs to rest in home ..ribs will give pain in every movement for a while ..

looking from the positive side he experienced a crash and nothing serious happened to anybody..

[Dave-C]

Just to clarify the facts, he didn't stop at the junction, he was effectively continuing around a righthand bend at about 20 mph, we have other photo's which emphasise the approach, it really does just appear as you come around the corner, I must say I've had advanced training and hazzard perception appart, it really does just take you by surprise...  the lack of the markings and sign are really an issue...  I've every confidence in the word of the law as it may stand, but, really if you saw the situation at first hand, pretty sure you'd see why we are pushing it....  

Keep you comments coming.....

DC

[cem_devecioglu]

bad roads are really dangerous traps for drivers..Even a very good experienced old driver loosing 1-2 seconds of attention with a busy mind can make a serious accident in that traps..

And my country is full of those traps that take lifes and they are very well known by the   road authorities..

They are insistent not to redesign them..Only if someone with a strong teeth bite them they wake up..Bloody bas***ds..

The roads to south (for touristic seashores) are full of them..And thats not enough, they lay pebbles on the asphalt with the reason of melted asphalt

under the sun.But thats much much worser!!

[stuart30]

Just to clarify the facts, he didn't stop at the junction, he was effectively continuing around a righthand bend at about 20 mph,
DC

well that too me is very very worrying indeed....if your lad thought it was on a bend and went through the give way at 20mph.

As you say you need to be there too appreciate the facts but from the photo posted id say if anything id say he shouldn't be on the road at all...maybe if you could post some pics from his route prior to the junction it may make things a lot clearer as too why the driving was so poor.

Like i said in my personal opinion if your lad thought he was still on a bend and doing 20mph then either his not telling dad the whole truth (as im sure most of us have at some point in our lives) or and based solely on the picture posted it looks too me he"s approached the junction way too fast and simply failed too stop,there doesn't seem too be much of an angle if he was still cornering when the impact happened. :-/

[Markjay]

Sorry to hear of your lad's injuries and his passenger's...  

As for the crash, again generally speaking you could blame the road only in very very extreme circumstances, in all other events the driver is expected to anticipate (sometimes 'guess', if you like...) the road condition/direction and if unsure, take precaution e.g. slow down and confirm....

A solicitor once told me that if you are involved in a crash, never say 'I did not see him' (the pedestrian, cyclist, or other vehicle, as the case may be) because the answer will always be 'well, you should have...'. What you should (try) and say is 'I did see him, but was unable to avoid the crash because of a, b, and c,' (e.g. he behaved erratically and in a sudden and unexpected way).

As for this one, sadly there are enough clues in this junction for a competent driver to know what he is driving into. These are the post signs and the white line running perpendicular to you son's direction of travel. These in my opinion are enough for you not to be able to claim extreme road circumstances, plus it was during daylight or early dusk at most so sorry but no excuses really....



I appreciate that he is a probably a responsible and careful driver and no boy racer, but even experienced drivers get caught-out sometimes (I know, I did, more than once...). In most cases and with a bit of luck this will end up in a 'phew, what was that? who put a junction here? good job there was no oncoming traffic', but sometimes it end-up as it did here. Still, could have been much worst... 3 broken ribs and a few penalty points is still quite lucky I think. Hope he gets well soon.  

[amigov6]

As many of you know i'm aware of hazard perception as i "live" on the road. I'm glad your son & passenger came out ok (ribs hurt) but i feel the responsibility lies with him. (sorry) Any lack of signs or worn road markings might help lessen any criminal prosecution & points if you've a good brief acting for you, but i feel (even if unfairly) responsibility lies with him.
    At least you still have him with you. Could've been much worse.

[edwardmickey]

For me, the driver is 90% blame worthy with the council having a slither of blame for the poor road markings.

If it were my report, this would be enough to harm a successful prosecution on the basis of 'not in the public interest' - assuming injuries were none/minor.  Would also take into account the driver's previous driving record.

...but for insurance company, I cannot see them contesting blame here.

The majority of factors that are taken into account when driving come from the road ahead.  We don't drive looking solely at the road markings.  We tend to look a good 100-500 yards ahead assuming visibility allows this.  If you're relying on painted give way markings to make a decision to stop, then you would need to be travelling at no more than 5-10mph to be able to react in time - clearly a nonsense.  I agree, give way warning triangles should be there, were there none at all?

The harsh fact is the the junction is there but the driver failed to process this information correctly.  The view afforded to the driver would have shown that the road was ending from the straight line path.  If the driver could not see what was happening ahead, then he would need to slow down to enable more reaction time.

Good luck in any case, at least nobody was seriuosly hurt; cars get replaced easily.  Maybe an excuse for him to get an Omega!!

[Dave-C]

Just to update you guys....

Had a call from the Bobby who's dealing with the incident, he's thanked me for the photo's that I've sent to him for the official file.  We've also had correspondence from the police hq / cps..  Surprisingly the Bobby and his sargeant are pushing the case in the direction that the road markings and giveway sign are missing!  He's using the photo's to emphasise this as there have been many accidents of a similar nature at this junction...  This has really pleased us....  Still can't see the wood for the trees yet, but, we are walking thru the forest it seems....



Another view approaching the junction... finger posts aside....  still a b1tch of a junction.....

Will keep you all informed...

DC

[cem_devecioglu]

I hope this place will be corrected and will not hurt people any more..

[Dave-C]

I hope this place will be corrected and will not hurt people any more..

I thinks that's the Bobby's plan.....  about a mile behind me as I took the piccy, there is an industrial estate and a salt store for the Stoke end of the A50...  the heavy's (HGV's) have scuffed the surface, markings etc and even polished the manhole covers, it's trecherous!  I agree with many of the comments on the thread, however, I too can see why it and many other incidents have occured, it's probably another case of waiting for someone to get killed before they address it.....

If you look at the latest piccy, on the wall to the left of the finger posts there is a silver Mercedes mirror from the last smash....  was gonna sell it on fleabay

DC

[cem_devecioglu]

now I see in the last picture..

 one very similiar  (Near MMM Migros in Ankara) that a building blinds the curve same style..I was nearly crashing with another ..

My luck was both drivers was having quick response..I was talking at that moment when I see the other car, hit the brakes (my feet was nearly out the car   ) and the other car escape into other direction preventing the crash

[Nickbat]

That new picture shows things in a different perspective. There appears to be no STOP sign and you have already pointed out the lack of tarmac markings. Additionally, looking at the marking in the centre of the road it seems to veer off the right, giving the false impression that the road has precedence over the "side" road on from the left. The route signs on the opposite side of the road do little to counter this misconception.

I DID think it was a cut-and-dried case of driver to blame. Now, I'm not so sure... :-?

[Dave-C]

This photo is taken from about 150 yds back the following day in fog....  imagine travelling at 20-25mph towards the pub, I think that's many of us would approach at.. it's a wide junction, giving the impression of an open road...  in a normal car your eye level is quite low and the centre line doesn't become visible until you're in the braking zone... TOO LATE!!!



As I say I'll keep you all informed.....

We'll call it a Learning Curve..

[Taxi_Driver]

This is sometimes why I use my sat nav........esp in the dark on unfamiliar roads.

Esp in the country on B roads i dont know.......

Doesnt need to have a route planned on it.......but leaving it turned on and occasional glances at it warn me for example theres a crossroads coming up.....whos got right of way? so i slow and pay particular attention looking for signage.
Another example is sharp corners.........sat nav shows me one coming up in advance.....so again I slow down

Its always too easy in the dark with only dipped beam on to be taken by suprise on unfamilar roads.

I use it as an aid.

If your son hasnt got one..........theres a crimbo pressie idea  

Mine is a tomtom......which i have switched on 3d view........so shows roads in a more realistic view  

[Paul M]

This photo is taken from about 150 yds back the following day in fog....  imagine travelling at 20-25mph towards the pub, I think that's many of us would approach at.. it's a wide junction, giving the impression of an open road...  in a normal car your eye level is quite low and the centre line doesn't become visible until you're in the braking zone... TOO LATE!!!



As I say I'll keep you all informed.....

We'll call it a Learning Curve..

From that photo and the last one, I agree that the signage is poor -- I'd have thought a Give Way with 100 yds below it would have been placed at the appropriate distance from the junction, as you can't see it until you're pretty close. Saying that, if I were driving there and I was unfamiliar with the road, I'd be taking it pretty slowly once I'd got around the bend regardless of right of way, simply because it can be seen that there is some road to the left of that white building, and with the view blocked you can never be sure what could appear from there.

Something I always bear in mind when I was told about it on a Bikesafe course: It doesn't matter whether you have right of way or not, if you're on a bike and someone hits you it's going to hurt you a lot more than them. So I'd be wary of a poor visibility junction like that even if I did have right of way. There's a similar junction with poor visibility near me, and although the route I take gives me right of way I always slow down enough that I can check nothing is going to suddenly appear in front of me.

We all make mistakes though, and unfortunately he didn't manage to escape unscathed and learn the lesson of this one. Hope all involved recover soon.