Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TheBoy]

the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it?  Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?

Matters not.

Just because both are made by a given company, that doesn't mean both parts are identical - that's certainly the case with many other components.

The fact is, our collective experience is that the genuine GM ones bought from a real dealer are the only consistently reliable ones.  Up to individuals what the hell they put on their cars, and I don't give 2 hoots either way - my car works.  I/we can only give advice based on both our own personal experience, and the collective, broad experience of others. Obviously some individuals believe they know different, though invariably end up paying more by having to do things twice.  Some never learn, and have to do it thrice, before the penny drops.


The reason for going to a real dealer, rather than the laziness of the likes of overpriced egay etc, is you can guarantee its genuine.  I know as soon as I see "genuine" in the title of an egay auction, its likely to be anything but...

[Doctor Gollum]

the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it?  Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?

Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder

[omega2018]

the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it?  Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?

Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder

right so that dodgy worldwide company bosch are making two crank sensors, one good one for gm and a duff one for the rest of the world

[Doctor Gollum]

You did read TBs posts

[omega2018]

You did read TBs posts

Ok i accept (and probably did always accept) that unbranded crank sensors are not to be used (though even now no one can say what goes wrong with them and why, and they are in essence a very simple sensor to manufacture).  I kept one as a get me home spare. 

I had thought that a branded one, with a decent brand (Delphi were set up by GM and despite what may be alleged here Delphi is a well respected brand), marked with their name on the sensor and cable, in a delphi printed and holographed box, would be OK.  It definitely was OK for 12K miles, it reads OK now with a multimeter and megger tester.  It may in fact be OK and the fault is elsewhere. However if the crank sensor is the fault then I am happy to decry delphi.

However i am finding it difficult to accept that Bosch or Siemens for that matter make two different qualities of sensor and give GM their good one.  i would love to see any evidence eg a photo of gm obtained bosch sensor next to a bosch one.  its also rather surprising to me that bosch ones are no good, they are definitely a reputable company.

has anyone ever had problems with a bosch crank sensor (or even a delphi one)?  i can't find it in the archives.

[omega2018]

ok here's the latest data with new cheapo crank sensor fitted.  i did expect the new sensor to work for a few days at least...

this graph shows the engine at idle over a 1 minute period then it stalls for no reason i yet know of


to me the first things that go are three of the oxy sensors closely followed by the ignition advance taking off.  or maybe the ignition advance goes first.  then both the short term fuel trims shoot up.  then the revs die.  I've taken out the long term fuel trims data as it stayed level thoughout. note the revs are divided by 200 to keep them on the scale.

[omega2018]

this one shows the car while driving got to 5mph then stalled over 1 minutes and 24 seconds. 

there is a lot more going on because the car was moving and annoyingly the oxy sensors behave this time or at least bank 2 sensor 2 does

[omega2018]

I have done a graph for the idle stall which has more precise timings

Looks like first to go is the ignition advance which i think means the main suspect remains the crank sensor despite it being a new one.  I'll swap it for a different new one today. The jitter on the bank 1 oxy sensor 1 (in yellow) is just because I got double the number of readings for that as i monitored it twice per cycle by mistake. 

[TheBoy]

the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it?  Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?

Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder

right so that dodgy worldwide company bosch are making two crank sensors, one good one for gm and a duff one for the rest of the world

It is true that Bosch may make multiple crank sensors for that "fit".  It is possible that the one supplied to GM they are NOT allowed legally to sell into the aftermarket channel - this is quite common in the automotive sector. So they may label one that's similar dimensions, but designed for another application, as "good enough".


Even if they are supplying to the aftermarket channel, you as an end user cannot deal with Bosch. So how can you guarantee its genuine?  Short answer, you can't.


Delphi supplies low cost junk, and their electrics are on a par with the worse of Lucas.  I would doubt they made crank sensors, but rebadged cheap Chinese shit that at best works for a few months


Given, as has been said so many times, that a V6 crank sensor failure does leave you stranded, and the last V6 one I bought from a dealer was £40+VAT, the ONLY recommendation is to use GM, bought from a dealer, bought over the counter.  I'm not sure how many times that has to be said before it sinks in.  You can argue all you like, but that is the experience of this forum and others, and you're not the first to question if "genuine" xyz is the same as GM.  The fact remains, the GM on is the only one that is consistently reliable.


As said earlier, you're trims now can't be trusted because you've screwed the MAF by using solvents on it. Again, you're not the first be a long way to discover this the hard, expensive way.

[Jimbob]

To follow on from the above.....

Some parts are bought off the shelf by manufactures, could be ABS ECU's, MAF's theres a variety of common parts used in various engines for different manufacturers.
Other parts will be designed by GM and manufactured by someone with the tooling ready in place such as a crank sensor used on no other cars.  The licensing agreement may specify that the part must only be supplied direct to them, and any sold to the aftermarket chanells will need to be of a slightly differerent and not better quality.  May even just be they are all the same, but the ones that gen passed to GM have passed Quality Assurance to a certain spec.  A lower spec may still operate sufficently to be sold as aftermarket.  Many possibilties.

Similar products are more easily provable..
eg..Buy a Wahler thermostat.....You will find it has been attacked with an angle grinder crudely removing the GM part number....
Why would they do that if they didnt HAVE to, it costs more to do it, so what other changes we cant see have been made?  is it perhaps a fraction of a degree different at operating temperature?  clearly proves they can dictate changes have to be made to sell it elsewhere.


Drop it down further, buy a resistor, you can choose how accurate it is, the more accurate ones cost more, they have been through more Quality control to ensure they are in spec.  others then sold cheaper.

Similar in other industries, Intel will sell you a processor guaranteed to work at over clocked speeds, graphics cards can be bought as golden sample, both illustrating the devices that pass QA with the higher marks can be sold for a higher price despite being apparently the same.

[omega2018]

As said earlier, you're trims now can't be trusted because you've screwed the MAF by using solvents on it. Again, you're not the first be a long way to discover this the hard, expensive way.

i'm assuming the MAF is not the problem here as when it wouldn't start, i unplugged the MAF and it still wouldn't start.

Ditto the cam sensor, I replaced it with a new one and it still wouldn't start.  After cooling down it did start and run OK with the new cam sensor so I have left it in.

[Doctor Gollum]

Neither the Maf or cam sensor will stop it starting.

Unplugging the maf will rule that out as it will run without. Cam sensor will only need a bit more cranking. Both put the light on.

Again, none of this is news.

I have my suspicion as to your problem but there's no point saying, because you won't listen

[omega2018]

Neither the Maf or cam sensor will stop it starting.

Unplugging the maf will rule that out as it will run without. Cam sensor will only need a bit more cranking. Both put the light on.

Again, none of this is news.

Indeed it isn't news.  I said it above and you just repeated it, glad you agree maf and cam sensor are ruled out .

I have my suspicion as to your problem but there's no point saying, because you won't listen

that sort of fits.  looking through this thread you haven't given any advice, excepting 'don't ask questions just listen to the oof opinion on crank sensors', which is set in stone despite no one being able to give an explanation. 

so now i've tried a third new sensor albeit a cheap one and the problem is worse than ever. It either won't start or idles a bit then stalls.  I think i have now ruled out the crank sensor.  i probably need to start looking at fuel.

[tidla]

Fuel pump?

Come across similar problems on other vehicles.

Easy to get all complicated. Fuel and spark is what you need to run, often disappears when thing run for a bit/get hot.

[cam.in.head]

Just been reading  back through this again. Sorry if i missed it but did you check fuel delivery / pressure .faulty fuel pump or blocked fuel filter ?