Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: jonny2112 on 04 August 2013, 13:27:14
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Finally got the (2nd hand) lpg kit fitted :)
When I first started the car up again on petrol, and manually switched to gas, the red light on the level indicator came on, and the car cut out. I presumed this was because there was no gas, and saw it as a positive sign?
Got some gas into last night - £10 worth at 79.9 p/l - and drove to work. There was no switchover at any point, although I only drove a few miles from that point. On the drive home, about 12 miles in this case, there was still no switchover, so I used the manual button on the level indicator. It showed a green flashing light at the lowest point on the scale, indicating at least there was some gas, but there was no other indication that I was running on gas. The green light is fluctuating with red, and I'm guessing that either £10 is just enough to bring the tank out of the red, or the tank angle needs adjusted.
As recently pointed out, second hand kits may not be a wise idea, and although I trust the source of this one and it was taken from the same engine as mine, there is currently no diagnostic lead to make any 'enquiry'.
This is the indicator, but it is not Stag system so I appreciate ideas may be limited :-\
(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/jonnyi2112/IMG_1353_zps426749f3.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s877.photobucket.com/user/jonnyi2112/media/IMG_1353_zps426749f3.jpg.html)[/url]
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What happens if you Force Start it on Gas, Ing. off, hold button down, Ing. on, wait more than 5 seconds, then start, all with the button held in at the same time.
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Didn't know about that Chris - worth a try :y
Back in 5!
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Have had to take swmbo to the dreaded Tesco :o
Had a quick go at the forced start but if I was doing it right, it didn't work. I'll have another go later.
When the car was ticking over, I pressed the button once and the level light came on. When I held the button down for a few secs, the orange light illuminated briefly before the car cut out. I thought I heard a full thud too from the rear at this point!
Wondering if its a fuel issue then? Surely £10 should be enough to have it running? Unless the tank does need adjusting.
I haven't smelt any gas which would suggest a possible leak, but guess I should go over all the connections again anyway. Should the system make any noise when operating?
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Have had to take swmbo to the dreaded Tesco :o
Had a quick go at the forced start but if I was doing it right, it didn't work. I'll have another go later.
When the car was ticking over, I pressed the button once and the level light came on. When I held the button down for a few secs, the orange light illuminated briefly before the car cut out. I thought I heard a full thud too from the rear at this point!
Wondering if its a fuel issue then? Surely £10 should be enough to have it running? Unless the tank does need adjusting.
I haven't smelt any gas which would suggest a possible leak, but guess I should go over all the connections again anyway. Should the system make any noise when operating?
Would have thought 10 quid should be enough, no harm in putting more in if the tanks at the wrong angle.
When running on gas you should near the Injector Relay / Solenoids clicking bit like a noisy tappet (I assume its multi point), if you pull a connector of one of them whilst running it should cut out and stop running and throw a warning bleep(s), not sure if yours will automatically switch back to Petrol though.
Check it all over again, it might be something simple, could also be the Gas ECU has lost its correct configuration if its not seen 12V for a long time.
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Thanks for that. Could end up being a nightmare. Fingers crossed its not though.
Just pulled out of the parking bay at tesco and noticed a damp patch on the ground. Wasn't there when I parked :-\
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Thanks for that. Could end up being a nightmare. Fingers crossed its not though.
Just pulled out of the parking bay at tesco and noticed a damp patch on the ground. Wasn't there when I parked :-\
Well one things for sure it wont be LPG.
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A/C on ? That will leave a damp patch when you park up.
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Jonny.How/where have you plumbed in the coolant feed for the vaporiser ? If its done in such a way that the vap wont get hot water if the heater isn't on (as mine was) it will either switch on/off gas,or not switch over to it at all.
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Jonny.How/where have you plumbed in the coolant feed for the vaporiser ? If its done in such a way that the vap wont get hot water if the heater isn't on (as mine was) it will either switch on/off gas,or not switch over to it at all.
True enough Albs but it should still kick in on being force started, might run rough or crap out but should start.
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No AC not working atm. Back to Ballyrobert tomorrow!
Tried again there but same result. When I got out of the car hearda slight hissing from around the rear wheel. No smell of gas but did sound like a possible leak. Only for a short time so may be something else. Didn't seem like filler or tank, but under the car. there are no joins there though. Only one piece filler to tank pipe, and tank to vap. Again, one piece. May be unrelated.
Concerned about the ECU now. This is the plug
(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/jonnyi2112/IMG_1349_zpsbcc63afb.jpg)][URL=http://s877.photobucket.com/user/jonnyi2112/media/IMG_1349_zpsbcc63afb.jpg.html](http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/jonnyi2112/IMG_1349_zpsbcc63afb.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s877.photobucket.com/user/jonnyi2112/media/IMG_1349_zpsbcc63afb.jpg.html)[/url]
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Two pics??? D'oh!
Coolant feed was taken direct from the engine and returned to the hbv, 'in line' by removing the helter skelter.
On the donor it was plumbed differently, using t pieces before and after the hbv, but afaik the pipework is still the right way round.
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Does the Multivalve on the tank have a 'manual' shut off valve, i.e. a knurled wheel :-\
You wouldn't be the first bloke to try starting the car with the gas physically turned off! :-X
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Does the Multivalve on the tank have a 'manual' shut off valve, i.e. a knurled wheel :-\
You wouldn't be the first bloke to try starting the car with the gas physically turned off! :-X
Mmmmmm. Good question! I'll check shortly. Normally is the tank open if the wheel is closed or vice versa? Guess that could be a tank dependant question though ???
If there's a wheel I'll check both ways. That'd be easier I suppose :-X
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Normally anti clockwise to open it. :y
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There is a knurled wheel but it was already open. I tried it closed too, but no change. Pity, thought that was it :'(
Both coolant pipes to vap are hot.
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Any clicking noise from the Injectors at any time ?
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I haven't heard anything, but then I've been sitting inside the car. I'll try to check that.
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I can hear mine when Im inside the car,but if your stood at the front its an unmistakeable sound.Try the switch in different positions etc. and listen to see (hear ?) if they start clickety clacking at any point.
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Ok mate. The Omega is bloomin' noisy anyway.
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No I dont hear anything.
Think I'll tilt the tank after and see if that helps, in case it believes it's empty. Long shot though :-\
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Then it might be time to start rechecking the electrical side of things ?
Do you knowwhich make of system it is ?
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No not yet. The ECU has no markings. It has a distinctive fitting sleeve, but then I haven't seen any others :)
The vap is Bygas I think.
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Right. So I tilted the tank up a bit. Forced start still doesn't work, but when ticking over on petrol and I held the button to manually switch, the orange G light came on and it ticked over briefly before switching back to petrol. It did this a couple of times, but now back to normal - when I manually switch, the light comes no but the car cuts out.
I also changed the inline fuse at the battery, and found that each time I change it, the level indicator starts with three flashing green lights, slowly going down to one. But only on the first go. Then it simply flashes one light. That's just weird.
It's not showing red so surely it can't be a lack of fuel? Did seem like it on the few seconds it ran on gas, but more likely a fuelling issue?
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Where's the pump for the gas?
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what pump?
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Sorry, bad question. How is the gas fed through the system?
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the gas is under pressure in the tank as a liquid,when the solenoid at the tank opens it travels to the vapouriser where it is turned into a gas suitable for combustion
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OK, thank you. Makes sense now. Just trying to think of components worth checking, and how to do it!
Can the solenoid be tested for example? Is it possble that it's not opening to allow the gas out?
Or could the vap not be not be working properly? Albitz mentioned the injectors too, but I don't hear them clicking.
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do you have a solenoid on the vapouriser?
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do you have a solenoid on the vapouriser?
I don't know :-[
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on the tank you would had to wire a solenoid,ie 2 wires,anything similar on the vap?
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Actually yes, pardon my ignorance :-[
The vap had two wires internally secured, and there were also two further wires with spade connectors, wich in turn fitted to spades on a block set aside from the main unit, but attached to the gas in connection. Cryptic? Not sure if I could get a valid photo atm.
On the spade block, one had broken, so I stripped the plastic back to reveal enough metal to make a good connection. The spade now fits and secures well but could represent a weak spot perhaps.
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when the car changes to gas,the lpg ecu opens the tank and vap solenoids to allow gas to reach the injectors,as a rough check remove the pipe at the injectors and check that gas makes it that far when it changes over(be carefull lpg burns well)it also stinks so there should be no doubt
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Ok mate thanks. This sounds perfect.
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when the car changes to gas,the lpg ecu opens the tank and vap solenoids to allow gas to reach the injectors,as a rough check remove the pipe at the injectors and check that gas makes it that far when it changes over(be carefull lpg burns well)it also stinks so there should be no doubt
At this point I can only imagine ;D
I'll wait til the morning when it's brighter.
If necessary, using this same process, I'm thinking I could work my way through the system then, checking each point in turn. That'll be handy :y depending on where the problem lies :-X
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Sounds like (and looks by the diag plug) it's a Bigas system. If it is then that's good because the lead and software are readily available :y
As for the not switching... It doesn't have all the required parameters to switch so something either isn't connected correctly or settings are wrong. Not all systems can be force started on LPG without certain parameters being met ;)
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Sounds like (and looks by the diag plug) it's a Bigas system. If it is then that's good because the lead and software are readily available :y
As for the not switching... It doesn't have all the required parameters to switch so something either isn't connected correctly or settings are wrong. Not all systems can be force started on LPG without certain parameters being met ;)
Sounds like good news as far as the cable, etc is concerned :y
Worried that the ECU needs work, but in the meantime I can check the supply, etc.
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When I released the pipe to the filter I could smell gas ok, and there was a pressure release too.
Must be a good sign, but where next? Worth forcing it onto gas anyway to check?
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It would seem there is only gas/air getting to the injectors, though under pressure.
Going to try and remove the feed to the vap to ensure it is actually getting fuel.
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When I released the pipe to the filter I could smell gas ok, and there was a pressure release too.
Must be a good sign, but where next? Worth forcing it onto gas anyway to check?
Is the filter before the Solenoid relays on yours ?, if so do you get gas before and after the relays?
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The filter is directly after the vap. Although pressure is getting through, there's no fuel. If I can prove fuel is or is not getting as far as the vap?
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The filter is directly after the vap. Although pressure is getting through, there's no fuel. If I can prove fuel is or is not getting as far as the vap?
Sorry just to confirm, when you say theres pressure but no fuel, what are you expecting fuel wise?, the Fuel (Liquid Gas) will evaporate as soon as it hits atmosphere.
Ie a typical LPG leaky pipe will just hiss, and there may be some white frosting around the pipe, but no liquid (unless its really pissing out) .
And watch those fingers with LPG!
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Sorry Chris, can't help thinking in terms of petrol :-[
I don't know what I expect really. There seems to be pressure throughout. As I started to release the feed to the vap there was the expected hissing sound, which suggests all ok at that point.
Is there a means of testing the vap itself? It's getting hot water ok, and I believe the electric connections are ok too.
No hissing that I can find elsewhere either.
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Sorry Chris, can't help thinking in terms of petrol :-[
I don't know what I expect really. There seems to be pressure throughout. As I started to release the feed to the vap there was the expected hissing sound, which suggests all ok at that point.
Is there a means of testing the vap itself? It's getting hot water ok, and I believe the electric connections are ok too.
No hissing that I can find elsewhere either.
Ok, no worries, think if it was me, I would be partially pulling one of the hose's off after one of the Injector solenoids, ie trying to create my own leak before the actual injector and see whats going on, if that makes sense.
Ive also posted a pic of your Control Switch on a LPG Forum to see if we can find out who makes it.
Still wondering if the ECU may have lost its configuration after being parked up with 12v for a while. This has happened to me once before where a car was parked up for awhile with no battery and had to be re flashed to work again. :-\
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Thank you.
So between the solenoid and the actual nozzle then?
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Thank you.
So between the solenoid and the actual nozzle then?
Yes mate, if nothing, then work backwards towards the tank (jus tbe carefull around the tank area). :y
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Thinking out loud now, someone will need to confirm, is there not a Vacuum sensor required from the Penlium on a typical LPG setup?, if so, has this been done?
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Yes there's a vac pipe from the vap to the plenum.
Just removed hose from no 1 to create leak as said. Will start her up and try to force gas to see if there's any activity this side of the solenoid.
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A cough and a splutter with the hose removed.
With all intact, it does seem to want to run, but can't.
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Just noticed your modified post. ECU is a worry as I currently don't have the cable, etc.
they could be readily obtainable, but will need confirmation of the system, though LD seems confident.
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Just noticed your modified post. ECU is a worry as I currently don't have the cable, etc.
they could be readily obtainable, but will need confirmation of the system, though LD seems confident.
Probably the way forward then, just read his post, LD thinks Bigas system, I'll keep an eye on my LPG Forum post for another answers , but LD does know his stuff when it comes to LPG. :y
Might be worth posting a Pic of the ECU Control Box. ;)
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When I remove the feed pipe to the injectors, there is a pressure release. When I remove the pipe from the other side of the injector there is no pressure.
Is this because the solenoid isn't open when I'm testing, or does it suggest they're not opening at all?
Pic of the box on its way (once I remove it) :y
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When I remove the feed pipe to the injectors, there is a pressure release. When I remove the pipe from the other side of the injector there is no pressure.
Is this because the solenoid isn't open when I'm testing, or does it suggest they're not opening at all?
Pic of the box on its way (once I remove it) :y
ok to Clarify, single pipe from Vap to bank of Injector Solenoids, from Solenoids (probably 3 of them each side), then 3 pipes from each Solenoid, to each injector.
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Yes mate, exactly. Single pipe to each bank of 3. Then three single pipes (one from each solenoid) towards the nozzles.
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Yes mate, exactly. Single pipe to each bank of 3. Then three single pipes (one from each solenoid) towards the nozzles.
So your getting pressure before solenoids but not after to each injector?.
By the way sent you a PM.
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Your inbox is full Chris.
And yes, that seems to be the case.
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Checked you've got volts to the injector solenoids ?
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Checked you've got volts to the injector solenoids ?
No, not yet. That's what I thinking about too with my question above.
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You might see some volts, depending on what make it is, which your not sure yet, depends whether the Solenoids are pos or neg switched, in theory should see some pulses when cranking or ticking over, but I reckon the minuet you pull a plug off one of solenoids it will throw a fault and crap out, worth a try though.
Jonny post a pic up of the ECU amd or any labels anywhere.
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There's no difference when I remove one of the solenoid plugs :-\
Still trying to upload the pic, but might need to wait to get the pc.
But there are no markings on the ECU at all.
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(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/jonnyi2112/null_zps372de373.jpg)
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Had another little play with it there. Couple of things -
If I disconnect either of the spades from the vap, it cuts out when forced over.
Likewise if I disconnect the power to the filter.
Continues to run for a few secs if one solenoid plug removed, but stalls with two or more removed.
I can hear the solenoids 'clicking' when the ignition is switched on, as Albitz suggested.
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So its running just cuts out after a few seconds, think your a bit limited now until you can get some diagnostics plugged in.
Keep an eye on that LPG Forum link I gave you and see if anyone on there can confirm what make you have. ;)
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Just a few, rough seconds on most occasions, before switching back to petrol.
And yes, thanks for the link :y
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Looks like an AEB based ecu and if you suspects Bigas then that fits ;)
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Thanks everyone.
Anybody know of anyone who may have a suitable cable?
Or any firm who may be able to help, in the London or Manchester areas?
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If I can't borrow one, etc, is this the sort of thing I should be looking for?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AEB-Injection-PowerMax-4-LPG-GPL-CNG-Programming-Interface-Tuning-Kit-USB-/360637162133?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Vehicle_Parts_Accessories_ET&hash=item53f7a66295
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More like Item #: 271247599215 (you need to check the plug ;))
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Thanks LD. No confirmation of the kit yet, either here or the other forum kindly posted by zirk.
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As your coming over to Londinium in a few days Jonny.Wondering if it would be possible for you and one of the LPG experts to meet up for an hour or so and see if they can spot your problem ? :-\
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Yes mate I am. The metropoli of London and Manchester will be on my radar if someone was nearby and willing :y
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From the original owner, it's a Micromise kit.
He thinks they're based in Luton area :y
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Get in touch with them and see if you cannip off the M1 and pick software and a lead. :y
They might even be able to diagnose your problem while you wait. ;)
http://www.micromise.com/contact.php?id=53
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Used their contact page to send a msg re a cable, but maybe tomorrow before I get a response.
Might end up just trying to factor it in on my travels. Don't know if they would run a test for me or not.
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Got to be worth a try. ;)
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The more I look atthem purple connector locks on the ECU the more Im thinking its a rebadged Ovi Dream ECU..
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Take your word for it Chris ;D
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If it's Micromise then you're reliant on them as I seem to recall they won't release the software. I failed to get any reasonable response from them when I contacted them in the past (possibly about the same kit :-X)
I'm afraid you have to get the diagnostic software plugged in... Anything else is a waste of time ;)
Regards my first statement... I'd be seriously tempted to try some of the other AEB based software to see if it worked :-X
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When scooting down the motorway for Dover the other day, I forced it over to gas and it ran for a few seconds before going back to petrol. Costing a fortune :'( :'(
I'm going to phone micronise on Monday (no response so far to their contact page msg) but if anyone has access to the relevant software / cable etc, please let me know :y
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Come see me in Beaconsfield :y
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You serious James? Got a few tricks up your sleeve ???
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Totally serious, if nothing else I can look over the whole install and check basics :y
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When is good for you?
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You free on Tuesday?
I'll drop you a pm :y
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PM replied, its fine to call by subject to time you're free, just PM and let me know :y :y
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Pm sent in reply :y
Might not work out though on this occasion :-\
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Unfortunately I was unable to take James up on his kind offer, but now that I'm home I need to get this sorted.
Before arranging a diagnostic test somewhere, I'm going to check the install.
Confident that there's power, but need to check the rpm feed to ensure it knows the car is running. How does the system know when its up to temperature?
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How does the system know when its up to temperature?
Normally there's a temperature sensor in the water jacket around the vapouriser.
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Thanks Kevin. Not really something I can check then.
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Thanks Kevin. Not really something I can check then.
Well, apart from checking that you have one, and it's connected correctly. I'm not familiar with that system, but you should have the following connected to a typical LPG system:
+12V permanent feed
+12V ignition switched feed
A good ground connection to chassis / battery negative
RPM input from ECU dash output
Maybe lambda sensor inputs, but usually not strictly required
Vapouriser temperature sensor
Vapour temperature sensor (usually in the lines from vapouriser to injector)
Vapour pressure sensor (usually fed from a T piece in the lines from vapouriser to injector, with another feed from manifold vacuum)
Tank level sensor - normally for information only (doesn't affect running)
Feed to any LPG valve(s) in the system - to tank valve and any valve fitted to the vapouriser.
Inputs from petrol injector piggy-backs
Outputs to LPG injector block(s)
I would go down that list ensuring you can identify each of these for starters. You might find something amiss. Diagnosis is easier if you have the software to talk to the system, as you can then easily spot values that aren't correct.
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Have had a quick look tonight at the bits and had another go at forcing it over - same results = occasionally runs for a while without revs, but sometimes cuts out. Surely it should switch back to petrol rather than simply stall? Actually now it always stalls when forced over, even with revs :-\
From the list, there are no separate vapour sensors. They must be part of the reducer. I think the other items are accounted for.
Just going to try and find a suitable source for testing. I had thought about buying one of the eBay kits, and I might yet :(
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Have had a quick look tonight at the bits and had another go at forcing it over - same results = occasionally runs for a while without revs, but sometimes cuts out. Surely it should switch back to petrol rather than simply stall? Actually now it always stalls when forced over, even with revs :-\
From the list, there are no separate vapour sensors. They must be part of the reducer. I think the other items are accounted for.
Just going to try and find a suitable source for testing. I had thought about buying one of the eBay kits, and I might yet :(
It should do, but system type dependent, may not do if force started.
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It normally does run Chris then switch back to petrol, but not on the last few attempts. Odd.
Driving me mad. No pun intended! Can't wait to get it plugged in somehow. Just hoping that'll show up the problem :-X
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Hmm, as said a few times before, still not convinced it hasn't lost its memory configuration though not seeing 12 volts for a while. :-\ Edit, happened to me a couple of times, where they have been parked up without battery, on both ocasions I noticed the digital led contents gauge was showing empty, when I know there was lots of gas in there when this happened.
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Hmm, as said a few times before, still not convinced it hasn't lost its memory configuration though not seeing 12 volts for a while. :-\
Can't argue with that mate so hoping a suitable interface can be found :y
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Just for info, added edit to my last post, sorry on the mobile.
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There are certainly a few things which I hope support this theory.
I know the dash gauge on these is known to be temperamental, but mine does fluctuate between the lower of the the three green lights and the red, yet a tenner should be plenty. Also, when I remove the inline fuse and then replace it, the three green lights flash on the dash gauge, eventually dropping down to the lowest one. This only happens when I mess with the fuse, never when I turn the car or system on, which makes me think there is a reset issue.
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Assuming it doesn't leak, have you actually filled it with gas yet?
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I don't see, smell or hear any leaks. There's now about £15 worth in the tank, but it doesn't want to run on gas at all now. Straight back to petrol this morning :-\
On the plus side, might have found a suitable interface kit ::)
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stop trying to force run it on gas until you can talk to the ECU and see what all the values say.
I reckon it's lost memory and dropped it's config, doesn't know what ohmage injectors are there, or correct rpm / coolant temp type sensors, and is having a total hissy fit.
However much you try and force start it, it's not gonna run on gas until you plug it in and see what it's moaning about :y
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stop trying to force run it on gas until you can talk to the ECU and see what all the values say.
I reckon it's lost memory and dropped it's config, doesn't know what ohmage injectors are there, or correct rpm / coolant temp type sensors, and is having a total hissy fit.
However much you try and force start it, it's not gonna run on gas until you plug it in and see what it's moaning about :y
I know you're right :-[
Is it worth spending the money on the cable, etc or would it be better spent getting it tested?
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Get the cable, we can guide you, and you then have it forever :y
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First time on site this year due to illness but looking at your problem you do need cable from laptop to gas ECU diagnostic plug also software from tinleytech co.uk , there is a free catalogue explaining how to fit also set up installationof software and there is the Bigas site . Ihave fitted Bigas Sequential Injection on 3 cars4 cylinder but 6 cylinder are no different.
On the software there is self calibration which must be done to set up gas ECU :- ( briefly your foot is held on the accelerator at a certain revs and kept there till the software says done , this process is started on petrol and when done switches to gas and stays on gas ) any mistakes on keeping the revs steady you just have to re-calibrate again. Save configuration when happy this is on the software, but remember you have to set finer settings explained in catalogue . All this is done with engine warm hope this helps if this is a Bigas system cable and software can be bought as a package around £30 ;)
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Thanks for that :y
My software and cables arrived this morning. Installed the drivers and selected one of the many options for injectors (listed as early or late with differing variations, but I do not know which strictly applies to mine).
However, at the preliminary stage, there is no connection to ECU. Have checked com port and drivers, which only leaves the wrong software. Have dropped an email to the supplier for confirmation, but am also guessing that the different software is only for different injectors and would not relate to the ECU?
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Tried a few different variants. Still no joy. Gutted :y
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If it's not seeing the ECU the changes you make won't be applied
I bet it's still a device driver/comms issue :y
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I think it's the wrong software for the 'unknown' ECU :-\
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If it's not seeing the ECU the changes you make won't be applied
I bet it's still a device driver/comms issue :y
I meant I was trying the different options on the disc to see if any were able to connect to the ECU.
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Iirc this setup came from the pink stokie ? Can he shed any light on its origins or software needed ? :-\
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Unfortunately not. He didn't have any setup issues - he just installed it and it worked! No software, calibration or anything!
If I had known a little more about LPG in general, and about the basics of this particular kit, I may not have bothered tbh :-X
Few thoughts at this point -
Trying to get in touch with micromise ( so gutted I couldn't pop in :'( ) to see if they would provide software?
Find out if looms are the same across the board so that only the ECU can be changed?
Rip it out and buy a new, recognised front end kit?
Sell or break the car :o
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Sorry to be blunt Jonny, but a second hand LPG kit is a total waste of time installing on a different car, if the lead and software cannot be obtained. Even if the donor car had the same engine as yours, and it worked fine on the donor, it will still need calibrating and mapping on yours before its safe for long term use. Even, assuming it did "work ok" after you fitted it without any software changes, how can you tell it's not going lean at WOT and damaging your engine or that the fuel map isn't a mile out and going to kill your fuel trims?
If you cant get the software and lead, I think you need to chalk it up to experience mate, and buy a new front end (stag) kit.
New stag kits are peanuts these days with warranty :y
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You're absolutely right James.
It was pure ignorance on my part - I didn't know enough about LPG in general, nor about this particular system. I jumped into it too soon, but hindsight is a great thing :-X
I'm still trying to get in touch with micromise to check if it is definitely one of their kits, but I know for a fact they don't use bygas components, so the initial system may have been altered at some point anyway.
The projected savings from the expense of getting this kit obviously have not materialised, and with some other jobs required I need to determine if its worth throwing good money after bad with a new kit?
I would like to (and there's a few on the bay) but can I afford to ? :-\
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Thanks for that :y
My software and cables arrived this morning. Installed the drivers and selected one of the many options for injectors (listed as early or late with differing variations, but I do not know which strictly applies to mine).
However, at the preliminary stage, there is no connection to ECU. Have checked com port and drivers, which only leaves the wrong software. Have dropped an email to the supplier for confirmation, but am also guessing that the different software is only for different injectors and would not relate to the ECU?
Assuming its the right Software and Lead, could be a com port problem, is the lead an RS232 connection to the Lappy and if so, does it have an USB adaptor buy any chance?
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I got the option with the USB connector, but I do think its the wrong software. Because the vap is bygas, that's what was supplied. Got a cable/interface which fitted, which was a start, but think I'm doomed to look for a new 'front end' kit so that it can be done a little easier, particularly if no joy from micromise. All feedback so far would suggest that they don't supply software. I don't think their email address works either, as all mail has come back to me undelivered after about three days. Going to try and ring them tomorrow.
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Can you post a pic of your LPG ECU and particularly any labels on it mate?
Your situation is getting painful :P so I just rang micromise for you, seeing as I'm not too far from them!
The chap was reasonably helpful. First off, he said if your kit is micromise, and the lead didn't come from them direct, you're flogging a dead horse, it will never connect.
Also, He said the company policy is that usually they only supply their software and lead to approved installers.
That doesn't mean necessarily micromise outlets... they just don't supply it to the general public, because they think it causes more trouble than it's worth.
What he did say, however, is that you WILL be able to get hold of the lead and software, IF you do it via an approved installer in ireland, and get them to contact micromise.
So it's possible to get it - just a bit of a faff.
We do need to see your ECU for sure to see what it is, first, though
For £300 for a brand new stag front end kit, be very, very wary about putting to much time and money into this one....
Out of interest, who installed it for you? Could I maybe email them, just to check things like RPM sensors are connected to the right places?
Without a micromise wiring diagram, it's very, very likely something has been mis-connected somewhere... for example, with no RPM signal or coolant temp info the ECU will never let it run on gas - it could be something that simple...
Really wish I could have checked all of this while you were over here, are you coming back at any point? :-[
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OP installed it himself James. :y
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For £300 for a brand new stag front end kit, be very, very wary about putting to much time and money into this one....
That's the dilemma in a nutshell.
I'm gutted that I couldn't organise a trip to yours, or even micromise, when I was over. I considered a return trip, but have now decided it wouldn't really be cost effective, based on a £200 ish ferry crossing, travel, accommodation, etc if a new stag kit would be £300. I should have gone down that road in the first place, and my (ignorant) attempts at cutting a few corners have proved very costly.
I haven't really checked the install as far as wiring is concerned, as I am quite confident with it. However, as the kit is basically not recognised here, and appears to have a few idiosyncrasies, I can't be sure if there is not something else amiss, and I don't know that I would, or could, find it.
Where would you recommend I start my search for a new kit?
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Oh, and thanks for contacting them. Very helpful and kind :)
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I would investigate the possibility of a Micromise agent over there speaking to them on your behalf before condemning it. You've put to much time / effort into it and probably got 99% of the job done.It would be a shame to rip it out again if it can be avoided. ;)
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There's three lpg installers in NI afaik. Two in Tyrone and one in Londonderry. I've dropped them all an email this evening to see if they have access to micromise. I guess you're right - it's worth a try first of all :-\
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Did you install it as per any wiring diagram? Can we see this diagram if so? which ECU pins did you use for RPM, 12v switched feed, etc?
Sorry this sounds labourious, but we need to know to help :y
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Not laborious at all mate. Grateful for the help.
Used the connections as per the guide on here.
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Got a response already! No joy though, and he doesn't believe anyone in NI would have it, or be in a position to get it for a 'one off'.
He also suggests a new ECU and loom.
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Sounds like a dickhead who isn't interested in giving any help. :(
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That's what I thought, but he's just emailed me again asking what sort of car it's for!
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That's what I thought, but he's just emailed me again asking what sort of car it's for!
£460 to change ECU and loom apparently :P
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That's what I thought, but he's just emailed me again asking what sort of car it's for!
£460 to change ECU and loom apparently :P
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-300-6-AUTOGAS-SEQUENTIAL-INJECTION-LPG-6-CYL-350-HP-KIT-W-REG-OMVL-INJECS-/121020790516?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c2d66b6f4 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-300-6-AUTOGAS-SEQUENTIAL-INJECTION-LPG-6-CYL-350-HP-KIT-W-REG-OMVL-INJECS-/121020790516?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c2d66b6f4)
Granted, not the cheapest, but a proven vapouriser. There's also an unfitted second hand kit on for £300 :y
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Thanks Al :y
Might be the best, and only? way forward. Speculate to accumulate?
Need to do some sums :-\
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Aaaaaargh! Pulling my hair out now - can't decide what to do :'(
Don't know whether its worth spending any more time or money on this one - just bad luck - if I want gas, it's gotta be a new kit really, hasn't it?
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Sorry if this has been covered Jonny, but do you have a wiring diagram of the kit you installed?
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No James. I used the guide on here for the ECU connections.
There is no other wiring diagram or instruction.
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No James. I used the guide on here for the ECU connections.
There is no other wiring diagram or instruction.
Ok cool - so how did you know which wires on the LPG loom related to which?
For example, How did you know which wire on the LPG loom, to connect to the RPM pin in the ECU box, without the wiring diagram for the kit?
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Kit was removed from donor with 'tails' of wiring. These corresponded to the colour coding for the guide, and the loom also followed the same colour scheme. Basically iirc there were the two purple wires for the lambdas for one part of the loom, and a red and ? for the other.
What are you thinking?
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Kit was removed from donor with 'tails' of wiring. These corresponded to the colour coding for the guide, and the loom also followed the same colour scheme. Basically iirc there were the two purple wires for the lambdas for one part of the loom, and a red and ? for the other.
What are you thinking?
I'm thinking there's absolutely no way to confirm you've actually connected the right LPG loom wires to the right wires on the car!
So for example, RPM will go to a green wire, and you may have had a green wire on this 'wiring tail' - but, there are numerous green wires in the ECU box - so did this one go to pin35, etc?
God I wish I could get my hands on this car for a day!!
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Yep, I used the correct pin numbers as listed in the guide - colour coding was incidental really.
I'll check flights ....... :D
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Although micromise won't give out the software, will they give out a wiring diagram I wonder? :-\
I'd be v reluctant to look at it (or at least, spend anything on travel) unless we had all means of investigating it, Eg diagnostics.. :-\
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I agree, but don't see a feasible way forward. So close and yet so far :'(
Cost is a REALLY big deal ATM, both in general terms and in weighing up against a new kit, so need to be careful with whatever courses of action are considered ........
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I would check and redo every connection one by one...
I've just read the thread on the LPG forum from when Daz was travelling from Stoke to Lazydocker to get this fitted in 2006 - and it was noted at the time that no software was available... this kit's obviously been around for some time! :)
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2006 :o :o And it was on another mig before that!
I don't doubt that it was working when removed this time round, but I wasn't fully aware of the history, etc and at the time cost was reasonable, albeit I also had to travel to collect it. In hindsight this was very silly, but at the time it suited me.
Now things have changed. I had hoped the kit would have given me a years service but I have lost faith in it. The whole point was to save money on running costs, etc. but this hasn't materialised.
In light of these revelations I'm not convinced there is any point in continuing.
I could go through all the connections but I'm not confident that the other components are ok. There could be issues with the reducer or ECU which would only be evident through diagnostics which looks unlikely.
That's a bit defeatist, but perhaps realistic :(
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I lied, sorry, I must have misread something, the date was 2012
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11193
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That's not so bad, but still :-\
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I never did fit this kit for Daz but I can confirm that it was fitted and running well on his car. I think he found a LPG guy local to him who helped out so perhaps there are people with access to the software. :-\
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Certainly Daz didn't have it, and wasn't aware of it ever being used on the car.
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Quick question -
apart from correct ECU properties, system needs appropriate rpm and temp feeds to switchover automatically. If the dash panel button forces it onto gas, does this not override the need for these signals?
Just trying to understand before I have another look at it :-[
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I think what James was getting at is simply that without a wiring diagram to check that ALL the connections are present and correct, and no software either, you're simply pissing in the wind :-\
Constantly, and unsuccessfully trying to force it to run on gas will only wind you up, and may well cause more issues :-\
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Certainly Daz didn't have it, and wasn't aware of it ever being used on the car.
Sorry... I thought this was the kit he had on his estate at one point :-[
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Certainly Daz didn't have it, and wasn't aware of it ever being used on the car.
Sorry... I thought this was the kit he had on his estate at one point :-[
Sorry LD, you're exactly right. I was referring to the software, etc.
it is the kit that came from big boy Karl :y
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I think what James was getting at is simply that without a wiring diagram to check that ALL the connections are present and correct, and no software either, you're simply pissing in the wind :-\
Constantly, and unsuccessfully trying to force it to run on gas will only wind you up, and may well cause more issues :-\
Thanks al, I accept that. I don't try to force it anymore but was just wondering if in fact that was the purpose of the button as I start to plan my approach to it. My ignorant thinking was that if the force could remove the need for both temp and rpm feeds then the problem would lie elsewhere.
I'm going to start again from the bottom and work through it, but it was just a thought re eliminating certain aspects as I went.
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All forcing it does is bypass the temperature and pressure, it will still need an accurate RPM signal and injector signals.
From your description of symptoms I suspect that you need to start the wiring from scratch ;)
Also check you don't have any kinks in the pipe work. :y
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Could be the answer to your troubles,or possibly bring some new ones ? :-\
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stag-300-6-autogaz-lpg-kit-6-cylinder-vauxhall-omega-/200959415316?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2eca1d5414
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Might be better off with a complete shop bought kit all things considered :-\
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Probably,but funds sometimes dictate compromises. :-\
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True enough Albs :y my concern is simply that a potentially incomplete kit means time effort and money identifying and tracking down missing pieces :-\
Tank and plumbing is already in place as well so that's a big time/cost saving right there. Chucking the existing kit on ebay will help take the edge off it too :y
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Not convinced that vap is man enough but could be a good way out if it doesn't fetch much ;)
Certainly would be a lot easier to fault find and diagnose remotely ;) :y
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Hard to know :-\ :-\
Be a good price for a new vap, ecu and loom, etc to go with the existing set up if it didn't go much higher. I have all the other bits the seller suggests are missing too.
I'm going to take a day to go through the install, changing a few things, checking others, to ensure it is sound. I also have a very slight possibility of getting some software. VERY slight :-X
If neither of these proves successful, then I'll have no option but to go for new parts. This might be the answer, though there are obvious reservations.
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Its listed for almost another 7 days,so you have time to play with yours and have a think. :y
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Its listed for almost another 7 days,so you have time to play with yours and have a think. :y
True mate. I'll have to keep an eye on it in the meantime, and I'll also need to check out some couriers as that might seriously affect the final price.
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Tonights the night 8)
Well, I'm going to have a look anyway :D
No word yet on the software so going to do the physical inspection.
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Right, part 1 - inspected vap wiring and an confisent it's the right way round. When removed the wires were cut at different lengths to differentiate and make them easier to relocate.
I have already tried the spade connectors the other way round with no changed iirc.
Next stop - rpm signal connection.
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Am on hand ready to reply to any q's
Make sure you confirm the ecu pins you're tracing back to :y
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Am on hand ready to reply to any q's
Make sure you confirm the ecu pins you're tracing back to :y
Thanks James, appreciate that :y
Just stuck an airline thing onto the end of the fuel line first to check for obstruction but it seems clear.
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It's electrical I'm sure, check those connections while its still light :y
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Back to it now.
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No further on :-\
Lost light so will check rpm connection tomorrow.
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Well unfortunately the rpm feed is connected to the right pin (35) and I think the soldered connection is ok too :(
Had hoped one or other would have been incorrect - guess that would have been too easy :'(
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All other connections seem good, including the piggy backs :-\
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Piggy backs definitely all correspond to the right gas injectors?
Easy to get one crossed, even our mr wood managed this on his install, well worth re checking :y
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No I think they're correctly numbered :(
But I'll have another look. Not sure there would be room to mix them up except that KW already has!