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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Brother in law rang me last night and said he was thinking of buying a Range Rover but now prefers the look of the Jag equivalent.
He knows nothing about cars, and I know nothing about modern Jags, but he said he might opt for a 2.0 rather than the 3.0 and about 3 or 4 years old.
I assume that would be an F Pace ?
Anyone know what they are like ? Any particular problem areas etc. ?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Tell him to keep away from derv.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

https://youtu.be/yWh1rcvM-Y8

This is the only one to go for.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Whats wrong with the Derv ?

[STEMO]

Whats wrong with the Derv ?

Absolutely nothing, except Opti's pathological hate of diesel.

[TheBoy]

Pretty much all the F-Pace and (marginally smaller) E-Pace are diesel.

Not as capable as a Defender or full fat Range Rover off road.  But now many people need full on off road capabilities? And even less actually know how to drive (proper) off road.

The 2.0d is a Jaguar derived i4, starting at an (underpowered) 160bhp, most are the 180bhp variant. The 3.0d is the Pug/Ford dervived V6 that produces enough torque to stop the earth spinning.

There are some DPF/Oil dilution issues on some engine configurations on that platform, due to the loosely coupled cat/dpf, forcing more active regens.  That DTM fella will likely know more about which combos suffer.  That said, if a number of journeys are short (<20 miles), even if it does a proper long journey 2 or 3 times a week, a modern diesel is the wrong option...   ...irrespective of marque and model.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Whats wrong with the Derv ?

It's derv and it's derv.

Save the planet with a 5 litre  petrol V8.

[Kevin Wood]

99.99% of posts on Jaguar forums relate to diesel engines having issues, it seems. Of course, there are probably many out there which are fine..

Not easy things, either. Timing chains, etc.

That's on top of the normal issues with modern diesels such as having to plan your movements around the needs of their pollution control systems if you want reliability.

I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, but you have to go searching to find one with a proper engine, as said...

[Rangie]

Only thing that should come in 2 litres is milk & juice.

[Viral_Jim]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

[Doctor Gollum]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

Is that the same problem that the 2.7 doesn't suffer from

[Rangie]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

. 


The RR & RRS forums are full of unhappy V6 owners with low mileage vehicles with crankshaft woes steer clear.

[Viral_Jim]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

Is that the same problem that the 2.7 doesn't suffer from

Thats the very one. 

The RR & RRS forums are full of unhappy V6 owners with low mileage vehicles with crankshaft woes steer clear.

I've also read about plenty which JLR won't cover under their own extended warranty programme because its a known fault. 

[Rangie]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

Is that the same problem that the 2.7 doesn't suffer from

Thats the very one. 

The RR & RRS forums are full of unhappy V6 owners with low mileage vehicles with crankshaft woes steer clear.

I've also read about plenty which JLR won't cover under their own extended warranty programme because its a known fault. 

. 

But people still keep buying them , absolutely crazy ! They come on the forum & are warned about them buy one & then are on tenterhooks about the crankshaft issues, you simply can't help some people..😄

[STEMO]

Petition going here:

https://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/535/903/886/land-rover-sdv6-amp-tdv6-crank-failure/

[Nick W]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

Is that the same problem that the 2.7 doesn't suffer from

Thats the very one. 

The RR & RRS forums are full of unhappy V6 owners with low mileage vehicles with crankshaft woes steer clear.

I've also read about plenty which JLR won't cover under their own extended warranty programme because its a known fault. 

. 

But people still keep buying them , absolutely crazy ! They come on the forum & are warned about them buy one & then are on tenterhooks about the crankshaft issues, you simply can't help some people..😄

You know that other cars have similarly major problems? Like BMWs 2.0l diesels timing chain failures at sub 10k mileage(the lowest I moved hadn't reached 5k) that when you get them back to the dealer they ask you to put it over there with the others? Or the escaping conrods on M3s? How about Mitsubishi's four cylinders that snap off the front of the crank? ZF gearboxes as used by Jag and BMW, not that Mercedes own was much better?


The biggest difference between those that are moaned about everywhere - like Jags - and those that aren't - mostly German - is marketing.

[Doctor Gollum]

The Mercedes 722.6 is pretty bombproof, and what issues it can have are readily fixed on the drive (a lift obviously makes it easier).

BMWs shortcomings largely stem from making most of the engine ancillaries out of the least heat and oil resistant plastic they could find and a VAG approach to component design.

At least, being a Toyota, the Z4 should be pretty reliable 

[TheBoy]

3.0d can also suffer snapped crankshafts. JLR keep saying the issue has now gone away, until it hasn't (again).

Is that the same problem that the 2.7 doesn't suffer from

Thats the very one. 

The RR & RRS forums are full of unhappy V6 owners with low mileage vehicles with crankshaft woes steer clear.

I've also read about plenty which JLR won't cover under their own extended warranty programme because its a known fault. 

. 

But people still keep buying them , absolutely crazy ! They come on the forum & are warned about them buy one & then are on tenterhooks about the crankshaft issues, you simply can't help some people..😄

I have the 3.0d V6, admittedly in a saloon where it has less stress, but never even think about crankshaft issues.  Now I've said that, I'm sure my next thread will be "How do I superglue my crankshaft back together "


But then every V6 Omega has a head gasket failure, you know, when the garage sees oil in the coolant....

[Doctor Gollum]

Bit tricky to misdiagnose a snapped crank though

[TheBoy]

The biggest difference between those that are moaned about everywhere - like Jags - and those that aren't - mostly German - is marketing.

JLR are crap at that.  Remember all that media attention at one of the British Grand Prix events, where some Range Rovers were filmed stuck in a field (due to the incompetence of the drivers, thinking max throttle on road tyres was the solution until the cars nearly buried themselves)?

JLR contacted all the owners they could identify, and offered them a freebie off road training event, to teach them how to drive.  But never made a sound to the media about it.

[TheBoy]

Bit tricky to misdiagnose a snapped crank though

You clearly don't use many JLR dealers for servicing

[Doctor Gollum]

Bit tricky to misdiagnose a snapped crank though

You clearly don't use many JLR dealers for servicing

It was* running rough, but the alternator light was on, the aircon suddenly stopped working and none of the pullies at the front were spinning.

*before it bound itself up with a really horrible graunching noise.

I will concede that even factory level diagnosis won't give a fault code for that

[Doctor Gollum]

Re the offroad courses, surely they should offer that for customers when they buy them

[TheBoy]

Bit tricky to misdiagnose a snapped crank though

You clearly don't use many JLR dealers for servicing

It was* running rough, but the alternator light was on, the aircon suddenly stopped working and none of the pullies at the front were spinning.

*before it bound itself up with a really horrible graunching noise.

I will concede that even factory level diagnosis won't give a fault code for that

No Jaguar owner would know how to open the bonnet.  Thats what franchised dealers are for

[TheBoy]

Re the offroad courses, surely they should offer that for customers when they buy them

I think at one point they did for the original purchaser. Not sure if that's still the case.

In the case of that Silverstone incident, they contacted all owners they could identify, irrespective of if they were the original owners.

[Doctor Gollum]

Re the offroad courses, surely they should offer that for customers when they buy them

I think at one point they did for the original purchaser. Not sure if that's still the case.

In the case of that Silverstone incident, they contacted all owners they could identify, irrespective of if they were the original owners.

A reasonable gesture, but as you say, the Marketing department obviously needs better interns

[Nick W]

The Mercedes 722.6 is pretty bombproof, and what issues it can have are readily fixed on the drive (a lift obviously makes it easier).

BMWs shortcomings largely stem from making most of the engine ancillaries out of the least heat and oil resistant plastic they could find and a VAG approach to component design.

At least, being a Toyota, the Z4 should be pretty reliable 

In order:


in the real world, the gearboxes lose all drive. The only realistic fix is a replacement gearbox, and doing that on the drive is not for the fainthearted. Assuming you could even find one, as demand was high which meant the prices were too.


I wouldn't call the timing chain an ancillary. But you are right about the plastics, which also affect Porsche.


Do you really think that BMW, who recently used The value of perfect engineering as a slogan, feel humble enough to learn from Toyota whose speciality is mass-producing boringly reliable stuff that's also affordable throughout its life. Although they did make the Supra even uglier than the Z4, which is quite an achievement

[Rangie]

Re the offroad courses, surely they should offer that for customers when they buy them

I think at one point they did for the original purchaser. Not sure if that's still the case.

In the case of that Silverstone incident, they contacted all owners they could identify, irrespective of if they were the original owners.

. 


I did the off-road training at Oakham about 17 years ago a really good day out & learnt an awful lot of the capabilities of these vehicles didn't cost a great deal then around £150 if my memory serves me correctly.

[Nick W]

No Jaguar owner would know how to open the bonnet.  That's what franchised dealers are for

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

[Doctor Gollum]

Gearbox servicing is preventative maintenance, and as an example, trans fluid wicking up the loom is readily fixed with a £13 part and an hour.

People don't bother with preventative maintenance though, mostly due to 'sealed for life' marketing wank, and then wonder why things fail.

Put another way, I am less worried about my gearbox failing than I am about the weather. On the moon.

[Andy B]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

[ronnyd]

As a tight arse old fart who has never bought a car less than eight years old,    i often wonder why, in the UK, we always seem to be at the back of the queue on recalls and manufacturers admitting their product has a inherent fault. The Fort Powershit debacle springs to mind, where it surfaced in Australia and the US long before there was any admittance from Ford UK. No wonder it's called rip off Britain.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

[STEMO]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

No, he's got two.... possibly three, of them 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

No, he's got two.... possibly three, of them 

Didn't Mr Beanz buy one in an unfortunate shade of seventies BL brown?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

99.99% of posts on Jaguar forums relate to diesel engines having issues, it seems. Of course, there are probably many out there which are fine..

Not easy things, either. Timing chains, etc.

That's on top of the normal issues with modern diesels such as having to plan your movements around the needs of their pollution control systems if you want reliability.

I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, but you have to go searching to find one with a proper engine, as said...

Kevin Wood......the voice of reason and sanity.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Petition going here:

https://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/535/903/886/land-rover-sdv6-amp-tdv6-crank-failure/

Araldite?......

[Andy B]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

No .... the Vermillion one! 

[Andy B]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

No, he's got two.... possibly three, of them 

There are just 4 cars at our house .... 2 Smarts, a French thing & a Merc ML 

(and a Yam TDM that's not seen the road in years  )

[Andy B]

....
Didn't Mr Beanz buy one in an unfortunate shade of seventies BL brown?

 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

....

Most Mercedes owners wouldn't be aware that the bonnet can be opened. The car is magically transported from the dealer's premises to an alternate universe where it is worked upon by fantastic and superior beings, which is why the huge costs are so accepted.

I have to say that in over 2 years I've only ever lifted the bonnet of my ML to top up the screen wash & to jump start AN Other car. It was serviced away from the dealer network so no 'huge costs' incurred. 

Is this the brown one?

No, he's got two.... possibly three, of them 

There are just 4 cars at our house .... 2 Smarts, a French thing & a Merc ML 

(and a Yam TDM that's not seen the road in years  )

Citroen SM.....or Veyron?

Do tell.

[Andy B]

....
Citroen SM.....or Veyron?

Do tell.

I wish!  It's a Shitroen C3 in Asda green 

[Marks DTM Calib]

I had one for 26k miles and it was brilliant, I only moved to the Velar as it lacked gadgets.

That said, just about to order another F-Pace now the specs have been revised.

Mine was the 180bhp diesel, 0-60 was around 8 seconds ish from memory and it had great road manners with economy on the commute of circa 50mpg. The F-Pace works as rear wheel drive under normal running and only transfers power to the front when needed (Velar is permanent 4X4)

The only real diesel issue is the AdBlue systems (as per all cars of the that time) with occasional NOx sensor faults and clogged DEF injectors.

My biggest advise is NOT to service them at 21k miles and 2 years, do them at half that and timing chain wear is no longer an issue.

DPF no big issue on these, its a longitudinal engine install so has a close coupled unit unlike the transverse version on the D8 platform

Auto box is great, the ZF8 is probably the best auto out there at the minute and 'just works', they can be serviced a
s the mileage gets high and parts are common across many marks

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Thanks for that. I will pass on the info to BIL. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I had one for 26k miles and it was brilliant, I only moved to the Velar as it lacked gadgets.

That said, just about to order another F-Pace now the specs have been revised.

Mine was the 180bhp diesel, 0-60 was around 8 seconds ish from memory and it had great road manners with economy on the commute of circa 50mpg. The F-Pace works as rear wheel drive under normal running and only transfers power to the front when needed (Velar is permanent 4X4)

The only real diesel issue is the AdBlue systems (as per all cars of the that time) with occasional NOx sensor faults and clogged DEF injectors.

My biggest advise is NOT to service them at 21k miles and 2 years, do them at half that and timing chain wear is no longer an issue.

DPF no big issue on these, its a longitudinal engine install so has a close coupled unit unlike the transverse version on the D8 platform

Auto box is great, the ZF8 is probably the best auto out there at the minute and 'just works', they can be serviced a
s the mileage gets high and parts are common across many marks

If this is the same auto as used in my 2015 XFR.....then I agree.