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[feeutfo]

Said theory on hold after a chat with a certain member who knows more about such things than I do  

In view of the number of people actively trying to crack this one from different directions, and to prevent me (and a few others) from having the same conversation with every OOF member regarding this, I suggest the following, I am more than happy to discuss this on the open forum and share any thoughts and information with others as I have not yet found an easy way to do this either. Somebody out there may trigger off some thoughts that could assist us all and save us all some time, by hitting the same brick wall every time.

If I could make one request though, could any actual data dumps, Hex memory locations and "sensitive" data be retricted to PM to those who have the technical knowledge and capabilities to interpret such data, and not offered out on the general forum for obvious reasons, but would encourage those to openly report back on any findings and theories.

I think you know what I am trying to say?

 :-/

Not got a clue!  :-? :-? :-? It all went waaay waaay over my head!  

And me, you guys may as well be on everest, :-/ i think your safe tbh
edited, understood after reading on then lost again...logic reader? :-/

PS i am going to the rolling road day so if any body needs any gadgets or whatever transporting via OOF network, happy to help, also have 2015 with cid working if you want play with data

[TheBoy]

Well, I plugged the CDC board into my currently depaired 2013, and live data on security state on CDC was ID N.OK Yet (basically CDC Safe).  I told the 2013 it now had a CDC, and live data on CDC, security state was ID OK (ie, working). 2013 still depaired from anything.

So, as Dave DND correctly said, seems CDC is not involved in coding.



As to end game.  If we have depaired 2013 and depaired CID and depaired GID and possibly depaired telematic, then we are in a state where that could be put on to paired units with no code?

Or we could, perhaps, take images of stuff coded with a known code? Say 1111? So these could be put on devices (both stereo and screen), so no tech2 required, but the code is then known so we can depair again later if required?

For the last paragraph to work, I guess we need to pair up 2 seperate sets with same code, then swap screens over to see if they still work.  If the challenge/response is clever, that may not work?


As said, if just going for former depaired images, I have depaired 2013 and CID.  I cannot provide depaired GID.


I suspect the 2013 and 2015 are identical - adding telematics converts 2013 to 2015 (and changes assignment of some buttons).  I need to check this further once I have got the screen on my CID working.

[VXL V6]

What if we look at the issue of code confirmation and think about it another way?

The HU checks the display has an identical code and is therefore paired, so if we can interogate what code a particular HU is looking for and jump into this communication before it gets to the display and return the correct code regardless would the display code then become irrelevant?

I'm hinting at some sort of piggyback type CAN device that can generate the required code. I guess the HU is expecting a particular can device id to respond though?

[VXL V6]

I suspect the 2013 and 2015 are identical - adding telematics converts 2013 to 2015 (and changes assignment of some buttons).  I need to check this further once I have got the screen on my CID working.

Yes indeed, German companies offer a 1100 - 1500 upgrade service which is essentially that. I have a 2015 front panel that appears to be no more than different icons and legends to a 2013, the main board for the front panel appears identical.

For reference the front control panel circuit board is marked up as:-

Preh 13248-059.4000
90120-448/0000
656109.76.36 B

[TheBoy]

I suspect the 2013 and 2015 are identical - adding telematics converts 2013 to 2015 (and changes assignment of some buttons).  I need to check this further once I have got the screen on my CID working.

Yes indeed, German companies offer a 1100 - 1500 upgrade service which is essentially that. I have a 2015 front panel that appears to be no more than different icons and legends to a 2013, the main board for the front panel appears identical.

For reference the front control panel circuit board is marked up as:-

Preh 13248-059.4000
90120-448/0000
656109.76.36 B
 

Live data on a 2013, watching button presses, shows both variations for which button pressed if it has different functions between the 2...

[VXL V6]

I suspect the 2013 and 2015 are identical - adding telematics converts 2013 to 2015 (and changes assignment of some buttons).  I need to check this further once I have got the screen on my CID working.

Yes indeed, German companies offer a 1100 - 1500 upgrade service which is essentially that. I have a 2015 front panel that appears to be no more than different icons and legends to a 2013, the main board for the front panel appears identical.

For reference the front control panel circuit board is marked up as:-

Preh 13248-059.4000
90120-448/0000
656109.76.36 B
 

Live data on a 2013, watching button presses, shows both variations for which button pressed if it has different functions between the 2...

So purely down (as you rightly say) to the presence of a telematics unit, front panel purely cosmetic change with correct icons for phone function.

[Dave DND]

As to end game.  If we have depaired 2013 and depaired CID and depaired GID and possibly depaired telematic, then we are in a state where that could be put on to paired units with no code?

Or we could, perhaps, take images of stuff coded with a known code? Say 1111? So these could be put on devices (both stereo and screen), so no tech2 required, but the code is then known so we can depair again later if required?

There is an extra element to this though that we are all missing

How does it pair with the vehicle itself ?

A matched screen and head unit can power up fine on the test bench, but I was to assume that there was a third bit of data here? The car itself. Pairing a screen to a head unit is one thing - but how and where is the data from the car figured amongst this - thats the real stumbling block I am hitting at the moment.  tech2 obviously adds something, but what?

I guess we need to pair up 2 seperate sets with same code, then swap screens over to see if they still work.  If the challenge/response is clever, that may not work

Yes, they do - but we need to isolate where the data is located inside the relevant sets for that to be usefull - Swapping the code chip from one set to another would indicate whether we are dealing with singular or multiple code chip(s) / processors etc inside.

[Dave DND]

What if we look at the issue of code confirmation and think about it another way?

The HU checks the display has an identical code and is therefore paired, so if we can interogate what code a particular HU is looking for and jump into this communication before it gets to the display and return the correct code regardless would the display code then become irrelevant?

I'm hinting at some sort of piggyback type CAN device that can generate the required code. I guess the HU is expecting a particular can device id to respond though?
 

With reference to the Fiat ones previously played with, once code locations and data were understood, it was simply a case of changing a few bytes of the dump to effectively turn off the need for the code conformation - no need for complex CAN piggyback devices, in theory its much simpler than that - just need to understand the data first.

[Dave DND]

I suspect the 2013 and 2015 are identical - adding telematics converts 2013 to 2015 (and changes assignment of some buttons).  I need to check this further once I have got the screen on my CID working.

Yes indeed, German companies offer a 1100 - 1500 upgrade service which is essentially that. I have a 2015 front panel that appears to be no more than different icons and legends to a 2013, the main board for the front panel appears identical.

For reference the front control panel circuit board is marked up as:-

Preh 13248-059.4000
90120-448/0000
656109.76.36 B
 

Live data on a 2013, watching button presses, shows both variations for which button pressed if it has different functions between the 2...

So purely down (as you rightly say) to the presence of a telematics unit, front panel purely cosmetic change with correct icons for phone function.

Thats quite usefull then, it would give the impression that the solution we find for one unit, may indeed work for both types?

[Dave DND]

Well, I plugged the CDC board into my currently depaired 2013, and live data on security state on CDC was ID N.OK Yet (basically CDC Safe).  I told the 2013 it now had a CDC, and live data on CDC, security state was ID OK (ie, working). 2013 still depaired from anything.

Do I understand correctly then that you have managed to fix the fault on the 2013/CDC3 of CDC-SAFE by reprogramming using the live data? As that may help with another way in !!

[VXL V6]

As to end game.  If we have depaired 2013 and depaired CID and depaired GID and possibly depaired telematic, then we are in a state where that could be put on to paired units with no code?

Or we could, perhaps, take images of stuff coded with a known code? Say 1111? So these could be put on devices (both stereo and screen), so no tech2 required, but the code is then known so we can depair again later if required?

There is an extra element to this though that we are all missing

How does it pair with the vehicle itself ?

A matched screen and head unit can power up fine on the test bench, but I was to assume that there was a third bit of data here? The car itself. Pairing a screen to a head unit is one thing - but how and where is the data from the car figured amongst this - thats the real stumbling block I am hitting at the moment.  tech2 obviously adds something, but what?

I guess we need to pair up 2 seperate sets with same code, then swap screens over to see if they still work.  If the challenge/response is clever, that may not work

Yes, they do - but we need to isolate where the data is located inside the relevant sets for that to be usefull - Swapping the code chip from one set to another would indicate whether we are dealing with singular or multiple code chip(s) / processors etc inside.

AFAIK it doesn't, it's purely down to head unit and screen (and telematics if fitted) hence why you can fit a paired HU and screen from another car without issue even without Tech II, as long as you have a married pair.

The CAN bus is purely beteween the HU and it's components, the rest of the car isn't CAN.

[Andy B]

Please explain in very simple terms   ...... While I understand, in very simplistic terms, the muliplex idea, the testicle technical amongst you are talking about CAN of the can-bus .... what's it mean?  :-?

[Marks DTM Calib]

As to end game.  If we have depaired 2013 and depaired CID and depaired GID and possibly depaired telematic, then we are in a state where that could be put on to paired units with no code?

Or we could, perhaps, take images of stuff coded with a known code? Say 1111? So these could be put on devices (both stereo and screen), so no tech2 required, but the code is then known so we can depair again later if required?

There is an extra element to this though that we are all missing

How does it pair with the vehicle itself ?

A matched screen and head unit can power up fine on the test bench, but I was to assume that there was a third bit of data here? The car itself. Pairing a screen to a head unit is one thing - but how and where is the data from the car figured amongst this - thats the real stumbling block I am hitting at the moment.  tech2 obviously adds something, but what?

I guess we need to pair up 2 seperate sets with same code, then swap screens over to see if they still work.  If the challenge/response is clever, that may not work

Yes, they do - but we need to isolate where the data is located inside the relevant sets for that to be usefull - Swapping the code chip from one set to another would indicate whether we are dealing with singular or multiple code chip(s) / processors etc inside.

AFAIK it doesn't, it's purely down to head unit and screen (and telematics if fitted) hence why you can fit a paired HU and screen from another car without issue even without Tech II, as long as you have a married pair.

The CAN bus is purely beteween the HU and it's components, the rest of the car isn't CAN.

That is certainly the case on the Omega....and appears to be the case on Astra H to!

[Dave DND]

Please explain in very simple terms   ...... While I understand, in very simplistic terms, the muliplex idea, the testicle technical amongst you are talking about CAN of the can-bus .... what's it mean?  

OK, I`ll try to confuse everybody further. For those that know this is not entirely accurate, but hopefully its brief laymans view of what we are all talking about ?

In the good old days, to connect electrical items in a car together, we used a simple switch, a bulb / motor / whatever and a battery source for the. These were all connected together by simple wires, usually a switched power feed and an earth return, and we all knew how to fault find and fix things.

Things progressed, and effectively went computerised for want of a better explanation, and it meant that larger numbers of items could be connected together and controlled, but instead of thousands of wires connecting them, you could control everything by sending a data signal down a couple of wires to an interface at the other end, a bit like connecting a network of computers together. Depending on what switch you pressed, one of the other items would receive a data signal and then react accordingly.  This is basically the theory behind the Multiplex systems in the car.  No more simple wires carrying a 12 Volt on/off signal, it would instead be a few wires carrying thousands of data signals.

The wires that carry these multiple signals are often called Data Bus lines, or simply "Bus" for short.  Now, all computers speak a language and have a form of operating system, you are all familiar with the terms Windows, XP, Basic etc etc, in a vehicle is often called CAN or CAN Protocol, and I think you should now be able to see where the term CAN-BUS comes from ?

The CAN protocol and language itself is a closely gaurded secret amongst the Manufacturers, and what we are all trying to do is effectively learn the language without the aid of any books and unlock its many secrets - very similar to the first people who starting hacking the operating systems of computers in order to allow some of the many features we now have to have evolved.

" Hackers of the Omega World - Have Now United !! "  

Did that help?

 :-?

[Dave DND]

AFAIK it doesn't, it's purely down to head unit and screen (and telematics if fitted) hence why you can fit a paired HU and screen from another car without issue even without Tech II, as long as you have a married pair.

The CAN bus is purely beteween the HU and it's components, the rest of the car isn't CAN

So the coding is purely between head and screen? Car immaterial? SO if I am correct, as long as the screen / head / telematics communicate correctly, they could effectively be placed within any vehicle without the need for any further vehicle communication?

 :-/

I think I may have been looking into this in too great a depth then, as one of my other forum projects is the DVD90 from the 07 Vectra, and Oh Boy, does that communicate with the car!
 

This is where not being an Omega owner puts me at a disadvantage - I assumed the can was CAN ?  If not, why on earth is Tech2 needed then, or is this just an overcomplication from Vx?

 :-/