Topic: Major engine death (Read 4199 times)

Liam · « **on:** 03 July 2010, 18:44:14 »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Meggy has committed suicide - why would she do this??

Was cruising down to London when the wife noticed a funny sound (she's pretty good at noticing odd sounds/smells/sights before major failures

). Open the windows and wow! Nasty scraping metal sound totally rev related so definately the engine, but still running fine. Parked asap figuring bearing of some auxiliary belt item self destructing. Just decided to keep it running to have a little look/listen to identify the cause. Noise was deafening but couldn't see anything amiss. As soon as it occured to me 'oh sh*t it could be the cambelt tensioner - switch off NOW' the noise got briefly worse and the engine stopped

.

Had to be the cambelt I thought - it's just gone over 40,000 and was top of list of things to do, but given that vaux thought they could get away with 80,000 for a while I didn't think I was sailing that close to the wind, but was cursing my stupidity all the same. Got recovered home and started to survey the damage.

First thing I noticed was that the belt was intact but fairly slack around the cam pulleys and a nice covering of fine metal shavings everywhere which wasn't quite what I was expecting...

Belt tensioners and idlers all seem fine - not loose at all. Then I notice this...

Yup - those pulley are touching!!

That's the source of the shavings...

So what in the name of greek bu**ery can cause that to happen??!! The camshaft must literally have eaten it's bearings and moved over 5mm or so! How could that possibly happen?? Never run it low on oil, though that bank does have a bit of a gasket leak which was also on the list of things to do. Never seen anything like it in my life - anyone else??

Totally gutted - love the car and just treated it to new lemforder wishbones and new rear springs

. 98 Elite and only done 125,000. Weighing up my options now - repair, engine swap, break, or sell/scrap in one piece. Couple of years ago I'd have jumped straight into the repair, but freshly married and renovating a house I have very little spare time right now. What does anyone else think - worth the work, or maybe the Omega dream is over

Oh well - just wanted to share the misery. Sympathy and e-pats on back please! Maybe there'll be a project or breaker for sale on here soon (though I probably dont have enough posts for that do I - sigh).

Liam

Mr Skrunts · « **Reply #1 on:** 03 July 2010, 18:54:01 »

Bugga, you have my sympathy regards this one.

Seems like something a tad serious has happened here. (Never seen a result like that before.)

Abiton · « **Reply #2 on:** 03 July 2010, 18:57:20 »

Busted camshaft?

Andy B · « **Reply #3 on:** 03 July 2010, 18:58:03 »

Quote

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

......
So what in the name of greek bu**ery can cause that to happen??!! The camshaft must literally have eaten it's bearings and moved over 5mm or so! How could that possibly happen?? ...... Never seen anything like it in my life - anyone else??
......

It's not a common fault, but I'd say you've answered your own question. Rocker/cam cover off that side at least so you can have a proper look. It could be oil starvation for some reason on that bank.

A N Other engine could be an answer or you might get away with just that cylinder head, but you'd need to be sure of the reason for its self destruction. :-/ :-/

Omegatoy · « **Reply #4 on:** 03 July 2010, 18:58:05 »

wouldnt it just maybe a loose pulley? commiserations though!!!

Elite Pete · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 July 2010, 18:59:53 »

Strewth

Liam · « **Reply #6 on:** 03 July 2010, 19:03:58 »

Quote

Busted camshaft?

Have yet to take the cover off for a look. But it was running fine all the time those pulleys were grinding each other, so I can't see the shaft can be broken. Will be interesting to find ou what on earth's happenned.

Holy poo Mr Skruntie - do you really drive a turbo LS7 meggy??

Where do I see pics? LS series really belongs in a meggy and it's a project I'd love to do. Maybe now's the time

(except for the fact that it definately isn't

)

mrjimbo · « **Reply #7 on:** 03 July 2010, 19:17:54 »

Quick way to find out whether the cam has bust or eaten it's bearings is to remove the belt from the two cam wheels that are touching and give them a good old tug to see a, if the cam/cam wheel will move in and out of the head, b, whether the cam/cams will move left to right

In and out would suggest a broken cam, left to right worn bearing/head damage

Lizzie_Zoom · « **Reply #8 on:** 03 July 2010, 19:29:29 »

That's very nasty!!

I would certainly take the cam covers off and see what there is now - or not - in place!!

Jimbob · « **Reply #9 on:** 03 July 2010, 20:00:58 »

Ouch!

Liam · « **Reply #10 on:** 03 July 2010, 20:04:31 »

Thanks for the sympathy folks:). I'll be having a look tomorrow. I expect the shaft has eaten its bearings rather than snapped. Woo.

So - what's an engine swap like on a meggy then? Thought I'd swapped my last engine, but maybe not. Undoing the gearbox strikes me as possibly the least favourite bit. How much can you pick up an X30XE for. Seen a few 25s on ebay, but no 30s. Would a 20 go straight in - might save some money on petrol? Suppose i could fit the heads on my 30 and fit the 30 camshafts (assuming I have 4 fully functional ones). Would that actually work?

Noooooooo - stopit! No time. If I break it, is any of it actually worth owt? Got xenons, bose, the cream/brown interior that seems rare as hens teeth. And someone will get a bargain with some lemforder wishbones with less than 100 miles on them

. New rear springs too. Hmmmm decisions decisions...

Elite Pete · « **Reply #11 on:** 03 July 2010, 20:13:57 »

Just replace the heads

Andy B · « **Reply #12 on:** 03 July 2010, 20:19:55 »

Quote

Just replace the heads

Assuming there's an oil flow to them both. It could have been lack of or reduced oil flow that's caused this.
Years ago a mate had a V6 Granada. One side sounded like a bag of spanners, when the rocker cover was removed it was as dry as a witch's *** in there. :-?

CaptainZok · « **Reply #13 on:** 03 July 2010, 20:21:35 »

Think I'd have to pull it to bits out of curiosity if nothing else.

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #14 on:** 03 July 2010, 21:08:21 »

Head swap - weekend job

Dishevelled Den · « **Reply #15 on:** 03 July 2010, 21:11:34 »

Very bad news indeed Liam

I would go with Capt. Zok's suggestion, you really should find out just what has bitten you on the bum

TestOmega · « **Reply #16 on:** 03 July 2010, 21:43:12 »

Quote

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Meggy has committed suicide - why would she do this??

Was cruising down to London when the wife noticed a funny sound (she's pretty good at noticing odd sounds/smells/sights before major failures ). Open the windows and wow! Nasty scraping metal sound totally rev related so definately the engine, but still running fine. Parked asap figuring bearing of some auxiliary belt item self destructing. Just decided to keep it running to have a little look/listen to identify the cause. Noise was deafening but couldn't see anything amiss. As soon as it occured to me 'oh sh*t it could be the cambelt tensioner - switch off NOW' the noise got briefly worse and the engine stopped .

Had to be the cambelt I thought - it's just gone over 40,000 and was top of list of things to do, but given that vaux thought they could get away with 80,000 for a while I didn't think I was sailing that close to the wind, but was cursing my stupidity all the same. Got recovered home and started to survey the damage.

First thing I noticed was that the belt was intact but fairly slack around the cam pulleys and a nice covering of fine metal shavings everywhere which wasn't quite what I was expecting...

Belt tensioners and idlers all seem fine - not loose at all. Then I notice this...

Yup - those pulley are touching!! That's the source of the shavings...

So what in the name of greek bu**ery can cause that to happen??!! The camshaft must literally have eaten it's bearings and moved over 5mm or so! How could that possibly happen?? Never run it low on oil, though that bank does have a bit of a gasket leak which was also on the list of things to do. Never seen anything like it in my life - anyone else??

Totally gutted - love the car and just treated it to new lemforder wishbones and new rear springs . 98 Elite and only done 125,000. Weighing up my options now - repair, engine swap, break, or sell/scrap in one piece. Couple of years ago I'd have jumped straight into the repair, but freshly married and renovating a house I have very little spare time right now. What does anyone else think - worth the work, or maybe the Omega dream is over

Oh well - just wanted to share the misery. Sympathy and e-pats on back please! Maybe there'll be a project or breaker for sale on here soon (though I probably dont have enough posts for that do I - sigh).

Liam

Sorry to hear but I see less than disastrous situation.

From the picture at least it appears that cam teeth were grinding but you may not have necessarily any bent valves, etc., or a crashed head. May be just replacement of both the damaged cams or that head if it is likely cheaper. If the belt slipped which the way it appears seated it may not have with the tensioner saving your engine.

I am a newbie but been reading a lot so may be it is the rosiest of all observations and perhaps unrealistic.

Good luck.

PS: Meggy has attempted suicide - why would she do this?? Cry Cry Cry

Liam · « **Reply #17 on:** 04 July 2010, 10:52:15 »

Hmmm an interesting positive spin

. If you look at the pulleys on my photo you can see the timing marks are not where they should be - so good chance that side contains bent valves. As an engineer with a good degree of mechanical sympathy, the noise when it stopped made me wince

. I think it's not gonna be pretty. You're right though there's a good chance the other bank is OK. Will turn it over by hand and see if things line up.

Anyone got a head lying around?

Teebee · « **Reply #18 on:** 04 July 2010, 11:37:19 »

I'm with the other guys, strip it and check the head(s), all it's costing is time.

markspark · « **Reply #19 on:** 04 July 2010, 12:39:07 »

Elite Pete is breaking one maybe the heads are up for grabs worth askin him, the car did have engine problems but not sure what they was

Andy B · « **Reply #20 on:** 04 July 2010, 13:51:33 »

Quote

Elite Pete is breaking one maybe the heads are up for grabs worth askin him, the car did have engine problems but not sure what they was

Good idea, Pete had bottom end problems ........ on his car

TestOmega · « **Reply #21 on:** 04 July 2010, 15:10:23 »

Quote

Hmmm an interesting positive spin . If you look at the pulleys on my photo you can see the timing marks are not where they should be - so good chance that side contains bent valves. As an engineer with a good degree of mechanical sympathy, the noise when it stopped made me wince . I think it's not gonna be pretty. You're right though there's a good chance the other bank is OK. Will turn it over by hand and see if things line up.

Anyone got a head lying around?

I was just looking at the condition of the pulley teeth and the timing belt. Is there also scraped rubber residue, to indicate belt slipping?

You certainly more qualified in this case, I am Electrical Engineer myself?

Cheers and I still kind of think glass is half full.

Liam · « **Reply #22 on:** 04 July 2010, 15:15:59 »

Deary me!

Turns out the pulley on the exhaust cam had come loose. Done up in the factory as far as I'm aware - certainly never had it off myself, so rather annoying it decided to undo itself

. Shaft itself looks fine and nicely oiled.

If only if only if only I'd shut it down before it killed itself - i'd probably be looking at doing up the pulley and jobs a goodun. But right at the end the pulleys must have meshed a bit and locked up or something. Crank has then run on, mashed the belt and probably most of the valves both sides

.

Camshafts look there or thereabouts compared to the notches on the rear cover, but the crank which, if I'm not mistaken, should have the line on the pulley pointing downwards, is actually more like 1-2 o'clock. So could have run on more than 180 degrees. That's a few bent valves is it? When I try to turn the engine over by hand carefully I meet solid resistance. I also dug out a nice strip of about 6 belt teeth that have been spat out by the crank pulley

.

So scrapper or head swap I guess. Can the heads be done in the car? Looks pretty tight getting the NS head off as it's so far back. Would need gasket set I guess - anyone know how much? Oh and some heads. What else? Can you reuse the bolts? This will be the furthest I've delved in before. That's if it's worth doing at all - hmmmmmm.

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #23 on:** 04 July 2010, 15:16:19 »

Eaten its bearings, thats hilarious!

What work has it had done in the past....cams out at any point?

mrjimbo · « **Reply #24 on:** 04 July 2010, 15:36:48 »

"Eaten its bearings, thats hilarious!"

If the cam has run dry due to oil starvation the bearing blocs in the head can become worn and go oval and the tension on the belt would pull the cams closer together.

I only suggested this as the front cover was already off and it would be easy enough to have a tug about on the cam wheels just to check as i have seen the same sort of damage caused to Cosworth YB engines due to oil starvation.

In future i will keep my thoughts to myself and leave the technical diagnosis to people who are clearly more qualified as i obviously know Jack Schmitt !!!

Liam · « **Reply #25 on:** 04 July 2010, 19:19:10 »

Well I'm talking myself into swapping the heads as Elite Pete has some going spare. Engine with bottom end problems + engine with top end problems = 1 perfect engine, right?

. His doesn't have camshafts, but since mine seem fine I guess I'd just transfer them over. Would you want to transfer the bearing shells over too so my shafts have their old bearings - this is further than I've delved into an engine before so dont know exactly the best practices. Thing I'll have to change some followers too as Pete says some of his are dodgy. Do I then have to worry about valve lift and clearances and stuff like that I've heard of but never had owt to do with, or is this engine all auto adjusting hydraulic lifters?

Anyone got a cam locking kit for hire/lending? What's the best place for head gaskets and how much? And do I need new head bolts?

Cheers,

Liam

maximoke · « **Reply #26 on:** 04 July 2010, 19:45:00 »

Not sure if I'm seeing things, but Cam No3 looks as if the large washer on the sprocket is not central with its bolt, I'm sure that would make the sprocket run on an eccentric causing the rubbing. Still could just be my eyes, but No4 is not like it.

RobG · « **Reply #27 on:** 04 July 2010, 19:51:01 »

Quote

Well I'm talking myself into swapping the heads as Elite Pete has some going spare. Engine with bottom end problems + engine with top end problems = 1 perfect engine, right? . His doesn't have camshafts, but since mine seem fine I guess I'd just transfer them over. Would you want to transfer the bearing shells over too so my shafts have their old bearings - this is further than I've delved into an engine before so dont know exactly the best practices. Thing I'll have to change some followers too as Pete says some of his are dodgy. Do I then have to worry about valve lift and clearances and stuff like that I've heard of but never had owt to do with, or is this engine all auto adjusting hydraulic lifters?

Anyone got a cam locking kit for hire/lending? What's the best place for head gaskets and how much? And do I need new head bolts?

Cheers,

Liam

Nope. Cam bearings are line bored and are unique to the head/s

Dishevelled Den · « **Reply #28 on:** 04 July 2010, 20:06:33 »

Quote

Well I'm talking myself into swapping the heads as Elite Pete has some going spare. Engine with bottom end problems + engine with top end problems = 1 perfect engine, right? . His doesn't have camshafts, but since mine seem fine I guess I'd just transfer them over. Would you want to transfer the bearing shells over too so my shafts have their old bearings - this is further than I've delved into an engine before so dont know exactly the best practices. Thing I'll have to change some followers too as Pete says some of his are dodgy. Do I then have to worry about valve lift and clearances and stuff like that I've heard of but never had owt to do with, or is this engine all auto adjusting hydraulic lifters?

Anyone got a cam locking kit for hire/lending? What's the best place for head gaskets and how much? And do I need new head bolts?

Cheers,

Liam

Quote

Well I'm talking myself into swapping the heads

That's the way to do it Liam 8-) This has the makings of a very interesting thread

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #29 on:** 04 July 2010, 22:50:24 »

Use genuine exhaust gaskets.

To make things fun - I had a cam pulley slip and the cam went through 180 degrees.

No valve damage

YZ250 · « **Reply #30 on:** 05 July 2010, 00:03:40 »

And do I need new head bolts?

Yes you should renew the head bolts

2woody · « **Reply #31 on:** 05 July 2010, 08:37:50 »

why not just replace the cam pulleys and fit a new belt and try it as it is ...?

you could at least run it enough to be able to do a compression test to see what sort of condition the valves are all in.

it would be a shame to pull the heads off and then find the valves are not bent.

Liam · « **Reply #32 on:** 05 July 2010, 10:15:07 »

Oh yeah! That had occured to me earlier when I was still thinking I'd break/scrap it if it was knackered, so I concluded it wasn't worth the time/money given the high chance it is knackered. But of course - now I intend to fix it anyway, I've got nothing to loose trying this first and it could save me a load of work. Very slim chance I think though! Thanks for reminding me.

One question - someone kindly linked to an ebay item of a head gasket set with pretty much all the gaskets and seals I'd ever want - including inlet and cam covers. Made by Elring. Looks good but I'm a little wary of ebay stuff. Is this a job where genuine parts are critical? Any idea of the price of genuine? If memory serves the latest cam cover gaskets I got from Autovaux were Elring and they didn't last long at all.

Seems like I can't find a locking kit for love nor money which might throw a spanner in the works. Anyone got any ideas? Friendly main dealer? Ha ha haaa.

Liam

Elite Pete · « **Reply #33 on:** 05 July 2010, 10:30:48 »

Liam, this the the seller on Ebay you should be buying your head gaskets and bolts off. The cam cover gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets, dowty washers ect should come from Vauxhall

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-CALIBRA-2-5-V6-C25XE-HEAD-GASKET-SET-/180405846177?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a0106c0a1

Liam · « **Reply #34 on:** 05 July 2010, 11:22:47 »

So would you say buy this...

Head gasket kit

And not use the cam cover and exhaust manifold gaskets, or phone and see if they can supply just the head gaskets and bolts. Or is that set worth it for all those inlet seals (although I've delved down that far before for various jobs and not replaced those and had no problems).

Liam

Jimbob · « **Reply #35 on:** 05 July 2010, 11:53:52 »

Quote

So would you say buy this...

Head gasket kit

And not use the cam cover and exhaust manifold gaskets, or phone and see if they can supply just the head gaskets and bolts. Or is that set worth it for all those inlet seals (although I've delved down that far before for various jobs and not replaced those and had no problems).

Liam

Ring up that supplier, Trecchi are very helpful, and it will be cheaper to just get him to supply the bits you need

2woody · « **Reply #36 on:** 05 July 2010, 13:53:20 »

Elring are good - they're perhaps the only gasket mfg I'd ask for out of choice

Liam · « **Reply #37 on:** 05 July 2010, 17:03:08 »

OK got my cambelt kit and locking tool should arrive from autovaux tomorrow. Will get a compression test done on the motor as is in the slim chance god moved my valves out the way

. Slim chance? more like fat chance. So then it'll be head swap time - woo hoo!

Andy H · « **Reply #38 on:** 05 July 2010, 17:39:06 »

Quote

why not just replace the cam pulleys and fit a new belt and try it as it is ...?

you could at least run it enough to be able to do a compression test to see what sort of condition the valves are all in.

it would be a shame to pull the heads off and then find the valves are not bent.

I seem to remember the cams having very shallow tapers which engage with the ends of the camshafts and a peg that locates in a slot in the end of the sprocket/taper.

If the sprocket has been loose enough to run out of line I think it may have chewed up the tapers (in both cam and sprocket) such that it would not be safe to re-use either. If the sprocket was then forcibly stopped it has probably sheared off the locating peg.

By all means get a pair of sprockets it on it to check the compression but I wouldn't be confident that the taper in the end of the cam was re-usable long term :-/

2woody · « **Reply #39 on:** 06 July 2010, 08:35:39 »

I've had just this on an engine before when the dowel snapped. with a change of pulleys and a new dowel all was well again. Indeed, it's still running over 30,000 miles later with no ill effects.

Liam · « **Reply #40 on:** 06 July 2010, 10:15:46 »

I'll see tonight

. Hoping the cam is OK. If I'm not mistaken the pulley is aluminium whilst the camshaft is hard steel, so hopefully the pulley couldn't damage the shaft. We'll see.

Liam · « **Reply #41 on:** 06 July 2010, 22:32:18 »

Compression test done! Well... could be worse

Seems like I got away with it on the passenger side head as I get a nice even 200+ PSI on all three. Driver's side has one good, middle cylinder has nothing at all, and rear is down at about 160 PSI. Hmmm - I hope that last result represents a very slightly bent valve only just not seating rather than something wrong with the rings on that cylinder???

So looks like I might be OK changing just the one head - looks a bit easier to get that one off/back on too. Anyone see anything wrong with that plan?

Pulley 4 looks a bit of a mess inside - the hole for the dowel pin very elongated. Pin looks fine and the camshaft itelf is marked on the end surface but is hopefully OK. A good pulley goes on and tightens down firmly and squarely. I'd be happier with a replacement shaft but fat chance of that probably.

Liam

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #42 on:** 06 July 2010, 23:47:33 »

One thing I would say.

It is easier to get the drivers side head off after the passenger side.

You NEED an 8mm rachet spanner for the main coolant pipe to clear the drivers side exhaust.

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Author Topic: Major engine death (Read 4199 times)

Abiton

Lizzie_Zoom

Martin_1962

Martin_1962

Martin_1962