Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 11:15:25

Title: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 11:15:25
Any 3.2 LPG owners, please would you be good enough to give me the following info?

Gas Pressure:
Injector Type:
Injector Size:
Any lag:

I am really struggling to get my 3.2 'quite right' on LPG. My nozzles were always 3.0mm and at a pressure of 1.4 bar it wasn't too bad but gave a good jolt changing gear at high revs.

After reading lots of posts about the vaktek red 3ohm jobbies (like mine) not really being quick enough to power a 3.2 at full chat, I took the injector sizes out to 3.5mm (as far as I dared) in hope of overcoming this.

I think this may have been a mistake.

Upon calibration with the new size, the start of the multiplier line went a lot higher - around 1.6. The Jolt was just as bad, if not worse.

I tried reducing pressure to 1.1bar, calibrate again - same issue. Jolt.

The mapping is OK, I can get the lines to pretty much overlay each other.

If you leave the transmission in second, and boot it, it will go right up to the redline without giving the "injectors fully open" warning, it's only when changing into third, the jolt occurs just afterwards.

Also - if you move the multiplier down quite significantly, it drives perfect all through the rev range, with no jolt, BUT it flags a fuel trim code, so that fuelling, while it removes the jolt, obviously isn't right.

I am starting to believe I won't get anywhere with these old style valtek injectors and should probably just upgrade to some faster ones, that don't require such a large nozzle size?  :-\

Ideas welcome - mucho thanks :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: feeutfo on 17 April 2012, 12:05:46
Depends what vap fitted too. The dual exit ones in conjunction with grey valtek injectors run 2.2/2.3 mill nozel jet size. No lag.

Way smaller jets than the single outlet black vap of the older kits with red injectors. I never got rid of the lag on my old 3.2 kit, with upright single hole tank.


Should add there is some lag on lift off at high rpm over run on petrol only as stock.


Both set ups run 1.1 bar.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 12:17:13
Cheers Chris, that's appreciated.

I have a KME Gold dual output Vap, so thinking I may just upgrade to the grey Valteks.

Is Teilo still the best source? :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Kevin Wood on 17 April 2012, 12:26:45
My opinion is that it's the Valtek injectors. They have a slow open/close time so cannot keep up with an engine doing 5000 RPM+. You can chase your tail trying different pressure, nozzle size, etc. but I don't think the issue will go away. If it bothers you that much, set it to flip to petrol at the speed of your choice and ignore it.

The grey injectors flow much more gas at a given vapour pressure and nozzle size than the red Valteks. I don't know whether they are faster opening/closing as I haven't seen any specs for them; it could be that the increased flow rate gets them out of trouble, and they are just as sluggish. Having said that, they are more tricky to set up to achieve a decent idle as a result, because below about 3ms you can't get any reduction in fuelling, so if the ECU tries to dip the injector duration below 3ms due to the lambda loop, the engine will bog down and then surge. You have to be careful sizing the nozzles to get a decent idle.

The vapouriser? Probably a red herring IMHO. IIRC I saw an install with the new style vap and red injectors, or was it the old vap. and greys? Can't remember whose it was, but the problem stayed with the injectors.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Kevin Wood on 17 April 2012, 12:29:17

I have a KME Gold dual output Vap, so thinking I may just upgrade to the grey Valteks.

There you go.. it's the injectors. :y

Would be interested in the cost of them myself, although mine isn't really too bad. If they are cheapish I might be tempted to swap.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: feeutfo on 17 April 2012, 12:36:03
Your welcome to swap with mine to test if you want to prove it thoroughly first?
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 12:36:07
Magic Jet £100 a set

(Mr Sassanach has had much sucess with these on his big motors, despite some poor industry reviews) - they were also brilliant on my old 2.5.

Valtek Type 34 - £140 a set.

Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 12:36:40
Your welcome to swap with mine to test if you want to prove it thoroughly first?

If you guys do go ahead with this, please keep us updated as to the result :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 12:56:32
magic jet... wonderfull, have yet to see anything beat them for the price,as for valtek's...well they are just about acceptable on my range rover, but only just!!
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 12:58:29
If ever you decide to advsertise that RR mr S, please let me know :) I rather liked the look of it!

Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 13:04:20
if i recall correctly i think the size of the hole in the nozzles(in the manifold)is only 3.0mm anyway so drilling the injector end beyond 3.0mm is a waste of effort.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 13:14:15
if i recall correctly i think the size of the hole in the nozzles(in the manifold)is only 3.0mm anyway so drilling the injector end beyond 3.0mm is a waste of effort.

Thanks for that info :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: tigers_gonads on 17 April 2012, 14:46:53
Is this a problem with just auto boxes or with manual too ?

Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Kevin Wood on 17 April 2012, 14:51:10
if i recall correctly i think the size of the hole in the nozzles(in the manifold)is only 3.0mm anyway so drilling the injector end beyond 3.0mm is a waste of effort.

Yep, I think you are right. In addition, I think above 3mm you will be weakening the nozzles too.

IIRC, the grey injectors are made by AC?
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 16:58:31
The KME and grey injectors do not cause lag on 3.2 Omegas, unlike the high rpm gearchange problems I've never managed to fully overcome on the 3.0 that has red valteks
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 17:08:16
The KME and grey injectors do not cause lag on 3.2 Omegas, unlike the high rpm gearchange problems I've never managed to fully overcome on the 3.0 that has red valteks

That's exactly my issue. High RPM gearchange problems...

May just set it to flick to petrol at 5000rpm and forget about it!
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: tunnie on 17 April 2012, 17:20:35
Think my 3.2 has only hit 5k rpm about 4 times since I got it  ;D

Only used the S button once too  :-[
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 19:04:31
Hmmm, mine would spend most of its non-cruising life on petrol ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 19:04:58
Think my 3.2 has only hit 5k rpm about 4 times since I got it  ;D

Only used the S button once too  :-[
Want me to try?
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: tunnie on 17 April 2012, 19:28:32
Think my 3.2 has only hit 5k rpm about 4 times since I got it  ;D

Only used the S button once too  :-[
Want me to try?

Sure, while you have it, fix that relief valve spring  ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 19:30:46
Think my 3.2 has only hit 5k rpm about 4 times since I got it  ;D

Only used the S button once too  :-[
Want me to try?

Sure, while you have it, fix that relief valve spring  ::)
Have you not done that simple task yet :o
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 20:02:54
As said, I think we've pinned it down to the injectors. I'm not convinced the Vap was innocent but the KME is well overspecced for the job ;)

Also as said, KME Reducer and AC Rail and  there are no issues right to the red line :y I can confirm this because I'm back driving the Omega again for a while :y :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: tunnie on 17 April 2012, 20:16:19
Think my 3.2 has only hit 5k rpm about 4 times since I got it  ;D

Only used the S button once too  :-[
Want me to try?

Sure, while you have it, fix that relief valve spring  ::)
Have you not done that simple task yet :o

Nothing simple about it  :(
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 20:32:36
what are these "grey" injectors.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 20:34:57
what are these "grey" injectors.

3ohm, look like the Valteks but branded AC or Autogaz and seem to work. Mine's on 2.3mm nozzles, 1.1 BAR and perfect to the redline every time :y

2.5mm and the idle is a bit lumpy ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 20:37:08
where are they available from?
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 20:38:44
what are these "grey" injectors.

3ohm, look like the Valteks but branded AC or Autogaz and seem to work. Mine's on 2.3mm nozzles, 1.1 BAR and perfect to the redline every time :y

2.5mm and the idle is a bit lumpy ::)
No shit, Sherlock.

Teilo has gone awfully quiet again, I'll try to call him tomorrow again.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 20:41:13
what are these "grey" injectors.

3ohm, look like the Valteks but branded AC or Autogaz and seem to work. Mine's on 2.3mm nozzles, 1.1 BAR and perfect to the redline every time :y

2.5mm and the idle is a bit lumpy ::)
No shit, Sherlock.

Teilo has gone awfully quiet again, I'll try to call him tomorrow again.

Apologies to both you and another member... I've not had a chance to call him :-[ :-[ I'll try tomorrow
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 20:45:01
i would like to try these "grey"injectors on the rangie, how much and where?
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 17 April 2012, 20:48:33
i would like to try these "grey"injectors on the rangie, how much and where?
mine were supplied via a company called Motogas, but Lazydocker has a contact (owner I think) there that does us good deals, although bloody hard to get hold of.  Try dropping Lazydocker a PM :)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 20:50:04
i would like to try these "grey"injectors on the rangie, how much and where?

Not sure if they do 4 cyl rails...

But it's from Teilo at this company: www.motogas.com/contact-us.html
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 20:51:58
i would like to try these "grey"injectors on the rangie, how much and where?
mine were supplied via a company called Motogas, but Lazydocker has a contact (owner I think) there that does us good deals, although bloody hard to get hold of.  Try dropping Lazydocker a PM :)

I've made a mental note to ask about 2 x 4cyl rails  ;)

Although I've been meaning to call him for over a week so I can't promise anything :-[ :-[

I've been very busy training up the guy who took over my van last night so might have a bit more time tomorrow/Thursday ;)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 17 April 2012, 20:57:39
if you have the inside track with this outfit can you get me a set for my rangie?pm me with the cost,  i can do paypal, cash,etc
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 21:00:54
Likewise, if these injectors are proven to work to the redline on the Omega 3.2 with no issues at all, I would be interested in getting a PM with the cost please :y

Just been out for a calibration/map
 
Pressure 1.3 bar, here is the map:

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/map-1.jpg)

I did finally get the lines to overlay completely.

Still get an awful jolt after a gearchange at high RPM...

Currently configured to use petrol after 4k rpm, which is working fine and eliminates this, but, I'd like it to run all the way on gas :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: feeutfo on 17 April 2012, 21:08:35
There are no complaints here James, ESP not with gear changes at high rpm. Rag the tits off it, no problem at all.

Being really really fussy, very slight hunt in cold air temp when the engine temp is not quite warm enough. IMO, on this set up, lag is solved.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 17 April 2012, 22:05:55
There are no complaints here James, ESP not with gear changes at high rpm. Rag the tits off it, no problem at all.

Being really really fussy, very slight hunt in cold air temp when the engine temp is not quite warm enough. IMO, on this set up, lag is solved.

Works for me!

Many thanks, Chris :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 17 April 2012, 22:14:19
Must admit that mine is a little temperamental at the moment but it looks like sitting for 10 weeks + with a flat battery may have removed the calibration and map (although the multipliers were still there) ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Kevin Wood on 18 April 2012, 17:19:07
Likewise, if these injectors are proven to work to the redline on the Omega 3.2 with no issues at all, I would be interested in getting a PM with the cost please :y

Just been out for a calibration/map
 
Pressure 1.3 bar, here is the map:

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/map-1.jpg)

I did finally get the lines to overlay completely.

Still get an awful jolt after a gearchange at high RPM...

Currently configured to use petrol after 4k rpm, which is working fine and eliminates this, but, I'd like it to run all the way on gas :y

That map looks very flat. Not sure what's going on there... I'm sure mine is a bit more peaky than that, but I haven't actually looked at it for about 2 1/2 years. ;D
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 18 April 2012, 19:50:53
The Stag mapping is always a compromise, as different driving styles knock it off
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Kevin Wood on 18 April 2012, 19:55:45
The Stag mapping is always a compromise, as different driving styles knock it off

That's because it's only a 2d map.. On those early ECUs at any rate.
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: TheBoy on 18 April 2012, 20:03:19
The Stag mapping is always a compromise, as different driving styles knock it off

That's because it's only a 2d map.. On those early ECUs at any rate.
Even the 3d maps seem to suffer a bit...   ...that reminds me, I really should put the current firmware onto the MV6 - that's 2 years out of date ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 19 April 2012, 00:49:49
The Stag mapping is always a compromise, as different driving styles knock it off

That's because it's only a 2d map.. On those early ECUs at any rate.
Even the 3d maps seem to suffer a bit...   ...that reminds me, I really should put the current firmware onto the MV6 - that's 2 years out of date ::)
Leave it alone until we next meet up! Last time you played with setting I got a sheepish phone call and an emergency meet up! ::) :D
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: albitz on 19 April 2012, 04:06:42
Was the interface I have supplied by him Paul ? If so, it stopped working several months ago. ::)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 19 April 2012, 10:40:59
Was the interface I have supplied by him Paul ? If so, it stopped working several months ago. ::)
The lead.... Yep. What's up with it? Mines much older and taken quite a beating over the few years and still fine :-\
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 19 April 2012, 11:00:27
you want to get one of those bluetooth adaptors bl**din brilliant bit of kit :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 19 April 2012, 11:04:55
you want to get one of those bluetooth adaptors bl**din brilliant bit of kit :y
Except my Lappy doesn't do bluetooth and I tend to have another code reader available if needed as well ;)
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: sassanach on 19 April 2012, 11:29:10
neither did mine so i bought a two quid usb to bluetooth adaptor of the bay of e
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 19 April 2012, 12:13:17
neither did mine so i bought a two quid usb to bluetooth adaptor of the bay of e

I knew that would be the answer ;D ;D

I'm too tight to pay any more than I need to though and I have a perfectly good lead ;) :y
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: albitz on 20 April 2012, 05:14:44
Was the interface I have supplied by him Paul ? If so, it stopped working several months ago. ::)
The lead.... Yep. What's up with it? Mines much older and taken quite a beating over the few years and still fine :-\

Plug it in,both lights flash once, and thats all it does.Laptop says "No LPG controller". Its rarely used and is kept in its box when not in use,so its short life hasnt been a hard one. It is possible I suppose that its fine and the problem lies in the wiring under the bonnet.  :-\
Title: Re: Questions for Stag 3.2 LPG owners please
Post by: Lazydocker on 20 April 2012, 08:52:52
Was the interface I have supplied by him Paul ? If so, it stopped working several months ago. ::)
The lead.... Yep. What's up with it? Mines much older and taken quite a beating over the few years and still fine :-\

Plug it in,both lights flash once, and thats all it does.Laptop says "No LPG controller". Its rarely used and is kept in its box when not in use,so its short life hasnt been a hard one. It is possible I suppose that its fine and the problem lies in the wiring under the bonnet.  :-\

Guessing from the time of this post you were working last night?

Let me know when you're available next week (at home) and I'll pop over while I'm at Colchester for other things :y