Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: mrgreen on 07 June 2012, 19:54:27
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Hi all, it's been a while!! hope all is well in the omega world! I am after a bit of advice over my summer tyres tramling BADLY! why would they do this? the winter tyres were fine but the summer Michelin Premacy 16" are shockers i wouldn't dare go on the outside lane in a roadworks for instance, does anyone else have this problem i'm running irmscher springs with B4's and poly bushed and it certainly feels like the front pulling it all over the place although when i had bad shocks on the back this also created this sort of feeling, donut's seem to be fine, any ideas? there is a rumblöing when i back of , would this be something to do with it? i thought this is probably a universal joint or the like on the drive shaft any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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Have you checked the steering idler arm for play?
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Some tyres simply dont fit mig to well, that can be the issue.
How old are the michelins?
The only reasonable explanation would be the side walls of michelins are too thin and twist slightly under load but this presumption is a bit far fetched.
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I've got the Same problem and michelins on front one went right Down to cords and it wanders all over the place like you said. I think michelins are to soft as had accelras on front before they were ok just a little bit of t lining also have polys fitted and the wandering started pretty much after these were fitted.
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I had the same problem when I bought my Omega 3 years ago. The tyres were down to about 2mm of tread.
Changed for new ones and this cured the problem :)
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Hi all, it's been a while!! hope all is well in the omega world! I am after a bit of advice over my summer tyres tramling BADLY! why would they do this? the winter tyres were fine but the summer Michelin Premacy 16" are shockers i wouldn't dare go on the outside lane in a roadworks for instance, does anyone else have this problem i'm running irmscher springs with B4's and poly bushed and it certainly feels like the front pulling it all over the place although when i had bad shocks on the back this also created this sort of feeling, donut's seem to be fine, any ideas? there is a rumblöing when i back of , would this be something to do with it? i thought this is probably a universal joint or the like on the drive shaft any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Guessing the michelins are worn...? Has it been set up correctly to something approach
-1.10 camber Etc etc...? Have the wheels been fitted as they came off, prior to fitting winter tyres...
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I've got the Same problem and michelins on front one went right Down to cords and it wanders all over the place like you said. I think michelins are to soft as had accelras on front before they were ok just a little bit of t lining also have polys fitted and the wandering started pretty much after these were fitted.
was camber set after polly fitted...?
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are the tyers on the right way round, when had new tryers fitted they have a mark on them to say what way they are to be fitted?
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thanks for the replies, my tyres are just about down to the markers so i geuss this is the problem, Chris i didn't get the tracking/camber done after the pollies were fitted but saying that the winter tyres seem o.k so i geuss the tracking e.t.c is o.k, i really don't want to pay out to have that done again, anyone got some good suggestion on tyres or should i go for michelin premacy again, although now would be the time to find some 17"s i geuss, does anyone know what the rumbling would be on back off would this be the drive shaft or is it the diff bearing? many thanks for the quick responses,
Rich.
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are the tyers on the right way round, when had new tryers fitted they have a mark on them to say what way they are to be fitted?
yes on the right way but as far as i could see premacies are not directional?
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I've had Dunlop Sport max, when they wore out car was tramlining badly.
The tyres were swapped for Hankook Ventus S1 and it felt like a new car.
Cheap but very very good tyres.
Don't want to impose anything but I would recomend these to anyone.
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I've had Dunlop Sport max, when they wore out car was tramlining badly.
The tyres were swapped for Hankook Ventus S1 and it felt like a new car.
Cheap but very very good tyres.
Don't want to impose anything but I would recomend these to anyone.
This a common misconception, if I understand your post correctly. Any new tyre will handle better initially, over the worn out ones taken off.
The Hankooks may be a better tyre, I don't know i've never had them fitted, but never compare the new tyre over the old. To get a good and fair comparison the entire life of both make should be taken into account. As the old ones WILL handle poorly as they wear.
Typical situation for an omega would be worn shoulders and almost untouched centre on the front. Rear will be the opposite with worn out centre and comparatively unworn shoulders. No car will handle well with tyres worn so.
Some improvement "may" be found by rotating rear tyres to the front. Depending if you want to only buy two at a time or a set. Although in this case it's a bit late for that by the sound of it.
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thanks for the replies, my tyres are just about down to the markers so i geuss this is the problem, Chris i didn't get the tracking/camber done after the pollies were fitted but saying that the winter tyres seem o.k so i geuss the tracking e.t.c is o.k, i really don't want to pay out to have that done again, anyone got some good suggestion on tyres or should i go for michelin premacy again, although now would be the time to find some 17"s i geuss, does anyone know what the rumbling would be on back off would this be the drive shaft or is it the diff bearing? many thanks for the quick responses,
Rich.
If the tyres you own show any sign of inside shoulder wear, it will need set up. Components and tyres fitted should give good results. The unknowns are set up and tyre wear.
If it was me I would be making certain primacy have every chance of wearing evenly to avoid bad handling and extra cost of excess wear, especially considering how expensive Michelins are.
See the camber guide maybe? Iirc the GDP at the top should be about 7mm. But don't quote me. My memory is appalling.
Or maybe post some pics of the tyre tread...?
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Ps, a quick check for faults won't hurt either. :)
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I have had this on my car since I have owned it, which is 2 years changed the 16 to 17in no better, replaced wishbones, idler etc much better but still tramlining. However it was actually caused by play in the steering box, my garage adjusted out the slack and wow what a difference, then another vist to WIM and pretty well perfect. Never thought of the steering box, when the tyres are replaced I will get WIM to redo it at the same time. I have lowered mine with Eibachs and B4's got to say a pleasure to drive at last.
So maybe worth having the steering box checked, not sure how this effects it as I am now mechanic but others on this board maybe able to enlighten.
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Presume we're talking about the torx and lock nut on top of the box? It's not play in the sense that it takes out play in the connection to the wheels, but rather, it restricts a light play feeling in the dead ahead position.
It's not something I have found to make a difference to over all handling tbh. More a case of individual taste and what the driver is used to. :)
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I guess thats what they did, steering has a lot more feel and I used to get a small knock through the column that is also gone now. I used an independant garage I have used for years, however one of the mechanics there is ex Vauxhall think he did. I had the rear donuts replaced at the same time and asked them to check the front suspension. It was always pulling to the left or following the camber, after the steering box was 'adjusted' this all but disappeared. When it was checked today at WIM the straight ahead was a tad out but nothing major.
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checked the tyres and they are all wearing evenly, before i go splashing out on a new set of tyres i will put it up on the hoist next week and che ck the donuts e.t.c
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try jacking the front in the air both wheels off floor & check the steering idler ive just replaced all of my front end struts wishbones pollys trackrods antiroll links etc but if unloaded i shake steering by grabbing a wheel i can see the idler bars rocking, feels like ive got a knackerd trackrod kind of feeling, & mine wonders only slightly now tho if i fix them should sort mine out, i did find tho that out of the 4/5sets of wheels ive got with treads & tyres of different types the older the tyres were & also tread depth makes a difference,
Remember a tyre has a shelf life of around 5 years! you will find the manufactures date as a 4didget number in a soft cornered rectangle all tyres since 2000 will have this date if it calnt be seen on the outside of tyre wall it will be on the inside of tyre wall normally on directionals, the elements soften the rubber or can stiffen them in high heats making them handle awful hard tread or deformed wires can in wet weather or dry roads be a bitch! but worth a look tho even if your tyre has loads of life its usability suffers over age cracking mainly so if dated 1005 thats oct 2005 ,0512 would be may 2012 etc etc so age could be a factor to check aswel mate... in this country a tyre can not be sold if its 5years old but no law on having it fitted to your car "yet"
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that's interesting stuff Zippy,thanks, i will check the tyre dates over here it's law they can't be over 4 years old and i am thinking they are as i've had the car 2 years and the PO did not go far in it i will check out the idler as well that's a good place to start, taa.
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This a common misconception, if I understand your post correctly. Any new tyre will handle better initially, over the worn out ones taken off.
The Hankooks may be a better tyre, I don't know i've never had them fitted, but never compare the new tyre over the old. To get a good and fair comparison the entire life of both make should be taken into account. As the old ones WILL handle poorly as they wear.
Typical situation for an omega would be worn shoulders and almost untouched centre on the front. Rear will be the opposite with worn out centre and comparatively unworn shoulders. No car will handle well with tyres worn so.
Some improvement "may" be found by rotating rear tyres to the front. Depending if you want to only buy two at a time or a set. Although in this case it's a bit late for that by the sound of it.
Chris maybe i didn't make myself clear
I did own a few brand of tyres on migs lts put it like I compare them as new.
Of course this is my opinion.
Dunlop VS Hankook S1 - winner Hankook - costs 60% of the price of Dunlop but far better tyre.
Michelin Pilot Sport VS Hankook - both equaly good maybe Michelins slightly better until you look at the price of course.
Curently I have all year round GT Radial - strangely these tyres are quite ok in dry, cold and snow but in rain they are a piece of s... so best to avoid especially in UK
Also had Hankook Icebear winter tyres and these are also pretty bad so wouldn't reccomend them to anyone unless price is the only factor
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This a common misconception, if I understand your post correctly. Any new tyre will handle better initially, over the worn out ones taken off.
The Hankooks may be a better tyre, I don't know i've never had them fitted, but never compare the new tyre over the old. To get a good and fair comparison the entire life of both make should be taken into account. As the old ones WILL handle poorly as they wear.
Typical situation for an omega would be worn shoulders and almost untouched centre on the front. Rear will be the opposite with worn out centre and comparatively unworn shoulders. No car will handle well with tyres worn so.
Some improvement "may" be found by rotating rear tyres to the front. Depending if you want to only buy two at a time or a set. Although in this case it's a bit late for that by the sound of it.
Chris maybe i didn't make myself clear
I did own a few brand of tyres on migs lts put it like I compare them as new.
Of course this is my opinion.
Dunlop VS Hankook S1 - winner Hankook - costs 60% of the price of Dunlop but far better tyre.
Michelin Pilot Sport VS Hankook - both equaly good maybe Michelins slightly better until you look at the price of course.
Curently I have all year round GT Radial - strangely these tyres are quite ok in dry, cold and snow but in rain they are a piece of s... so best to avoid especially in UK
Also had Hankook Icebear winter tyres and these are also pretty bad so wouldn't reccomend them to anyone unless price is the only factor
Which Dunlop...? :-\ they have several models. Some I'd say where excellent. Some far from it. But will last longer. Noise aside, they are a premium brand.
I would say the sport maxx and TT are some of the best tyres i ever encountered on an Omega for performance. Noise durability and cost being unfavourable.
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O.K i went off to the equivelant of a fast fit over here ;D and found a guy who is actually a little knowledgeable, he checked for movement in my idler, bushes e.t.c and found nought he then pumped my tyres up to 37 psi and said if that doesn't help come back for new tyres, he says it's the tread pattern is too loose on the tyre in other words the rubber has softened which gives sidewards movement being able to follow the pattern of the road, the tyres are 6 years old and near their end anyway. So the test drive they were better but not perfect so i'm on the hunt, i found some 18" spotstars over here for €250 which i would like to put on but tyres would be expensive unless i went for cheap asian stuff, has anyone had any experience with asian tyres and if so good or bad,
many thanks,
Rich.
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so your tyre laws are 4years & tyres 6years old not a great start then... when you say asian tyres... what are the brands called???
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yes 4 years and the guy didn't blink an eye so I am geussing it's not all that well enforced, the asian tyres I was looking at are Nankang ns-2 i've looked at reviews and they don't look great i will have to bite the bullet and get Dunlops i think.
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well the Nankangs they sell in the uk arnt actually a bad tyre to be honest, really grippy most of the way down the tread but if you do give them alot of stick they do go out of shape & wear funny but at the price of them worth a go for 12000miles+
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Hi all, it's been a while!! hope all is well in the omega world! I am after a bit of advice over my summer tyres tramling BADLY! why would they do this? the winter tyres were fine but the summer Michelin Premacy 16" are shockers i wouldn't dare go on the outside lane in a roadworks for instance, does anyone else have this problem i'm running irmscher springs with B4's and poly bushed and it certainly feels like the front pulling it all over the place although when i had bad shocks on the back this also created this sort of feeling, donut's seem to be fine, any ideas? there is a rumblöing when i back of , would this be something to do with it? i thought this is probably a universal joint or the like on the drive shaft any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Some thoughts on this.
The Omega is renowned for tramlining, they all do it!
In my experience tramlining on the Omega is proportionate to the degree of tyre wear. In other words less tread means more tramlining. New tyres with deeper tread make things much more tolerable, but never perfect. My car was bordering on being unsafe before I replacing the worn out Michelins this year. I was not at all comfortable letting my wife drive it. I have now had 4 new “Vredestein Sessantas” fitted, which seem pretty good, but I still suffer a degree of tramlining. This is even after having new wishbones fitted and 4 wheel alignment etc carried out at WIM.
Interestingly I run “Winter” tyres during the colder months, which totally transform the car. Tramlining is totally eliminated, and grip levels in frost and snow conditions are unbelievably good compared with the performance of ordinary Summer tyres in the same conditions. I put this down to the softer compound, more grooves in the tread meaning more flexibility, and softer side walls. Unfortunately the trade off is you cannot hustle through bends in the same way as with summer tyres. (Not too much of a problem in the Winter)
The original Omega suspension design would have include narrower/higher profile tyres with flex in the side walls which all worked harmoniously together to give good passenger comfort. Low profile tyres by their very nature have little or no flex in their side walls meaning they transmit more load directly to the soft bushes in the wishbones which become over stressed. As the bushes deflect; the steering geometry momentarily changes, inducing the wandering of the car that we are familiar with on all but perfect motorway conditions.
Of course fitting Polly bushes can help in theory, but as far as I am aware only the one axially orientated bush can be replaced, leaving the other to still deform.
Another contributing factor is the steering arrangement with its numerous joints. As these joints inevitably wear the steering / handling becomes “Flabby” due to all the additional movement in the mechanism. Maybe a good old Rack and Pinion set up would have been a better solution.
Now I don’t know if this is possible, but I have been pondering over an idea of a wishbone assembly with rose joints fitted in place of the rubber bushes. This would tighten up any movement, but again there would be the inevitable trade off where the vibration from the wheels would be transferred directly to the chassis due to the now none existent shock absorbing effect of the bushes.
:)
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Poly bushes are only available to replace the front wishbone bush.
There has to be a bush there, or the ride would be intolerable.
Tyre profile being uppermost priority when it comes to tram lining. Keeping the original profile shape is most important.
Best way to an appalling handling car...
Elite soft suspension
Enthusiastic driving
Shot bushes
Poor set up
Wide and or Falken tyres. My Elite had both.
It was rather lethal. Fronts would roll off high points, rears would clime out of low points. The car was all over the place. Falkens where barely half worn.
Soft suspension deflects the front camber easier. That is to say, as the suspension compresses the camber angle changes. Therefor tyre wear on the edges of the front tyres will always be an issue. (the rear does the opposite and wears the middle first)
So, it follows, and appears to be the case that
Firmer suspension
Poly bushes
Set up at Wim
Dunlop sport maxx/tt
Will give a much more planted and better handling car.
Irmscher or similar suspension gives WAY less body roll. Therefor camber deflection and tyre wear is kept to a minimum. Better handling, longer lasting tyres, a safer car to drive.
Note. The Dunlops give a very planted feel to the car. But are a bit soft and noisy. Conti Sc3, are a fraction less planted, but last longer, are quieter and last I looked where cheaper than the Dunlops.
On the modified set up I have yet to find the limit of the cars accuracy over any surface in a straight line. There was NO tramlining to be found when the tyre where new. Obviously tramlines could be felt through the suspension as it was high,low,high surface to drive over. The tyres are now getting worn and some slight tramlining is now kreeping in.
On the Elite set up on worn Falkens, it was impossible to drive faster than 40mpf on a bumpy B road. At its absolute best, the Elite suspension I would say was 40% worse than the modified set up at its worst. A different world.
Tighten up the chassis bushes, replace any worn or broken chassis parts.
Set it up to -1.10 camber via Wim settings. Ignore vx settings they are shite.
Fit new tyres. Best you can afford. (Not Falkens)
As a minimum price guide I wouldn't fit anything cheaper than Kumho Ku31 etc.... But needs must and all that.
The Sc3's wear very well and give fantastic grip wet or dry.
But then, not everyone wants a firm set up, or even needs it. If your a steady driver, you shouldn't get so many problems, in theory.
Hth.
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Sorry, you got me started. ;D
Post wasn't intended to be that long. :-[
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Sorry if I'm interfering in this thread but would it be a good idea to fit narrower tyres in order to avoid tramlining?
Instead of 225/55 16, I'm thinking of using 205/60 16 or 215/55 16 when I buy new tyres next summer.
With my current summer tyres (Michelin Primacy HP 225/55 16, ~3mm left) I experience a lot of tramlining but in the winter, when I use my winter tyres, Kumho KW22 195/65 15, I don't have this problem at all.
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Poly bushes are only available to replace the front wishbone bush.
There has to be a bush there, or the ride would be intolerable.
Tyre profile being uppermost priority when it comes to tram lining. Keeping the original profile shape is most important.
Best way to an appalling handling car...
Elite soft suspension
Enthusiastic driving
Shot bushes
Poor set up
Wide and or Falken tyres. My Elite had both.
It was rather lethal. Fronts would roll off high points, rears would clime out of low points. The car was all over the place. Falkens where barely half worn.
Soft suspension deflects the front camber easier. That is to say, as the suspension compresses the camber angle changes. Therefor tyre wear on the edges of the front tyres will always be an issue. (the rear does the opposite and wears the middle first)
So, it follows, and appears to be the case that
Firmer suspension
Poly bushes
Set up at Wim
Dunlop sport maxx/tt
Will give a much more planted and better handling car.
Irmscher or similar suspension gives WAY less body roll. Therefor camber deflection and tyre wear is kept to a minimum. Better handling, longer lasting tyres, a safer car to drive.
Note. The Dunlops give a very planted feel to the car. But are a bit soft and noisy. Conti Sc3, are a fraction less planted, but last longer, are quieter and last I looked where cheaper than the Dunlops.
On the modified set up I have yet to find the limit of the cars accuracy over any surface in a straight line. There was NO tramlining to be found when the tyre where new. Obviously tramlines could be felt through the suspension as it was high,low,high surface to drive over. The tyres are now getting worn and some slight tramlining is now kreeping in.
On the Elite set up on worn Falkens, it was impossible to drive faster than 40mpf on a bumpy B road. At its absolute best, the Elite suspension I would say was 40% worse than the modified set up at its worst. A different world.
Tighten up the chassis bushes, replace any worn or broken chassis parts.
Set it up to -1.10 camber via Wim settings. Ignore vx settings they are shite.
Fit new tyres. Best you can afford. (Not Falkens)
As a minimum price guide I wouldn't fit anything cheaper than Kumho Ku31 etc.... But needs must and all that.
The Sc3's wear very well and give fantastic grip wet or dry.
But then, not everyone wants a firm set up, or even needs it. If your a steady driver, you shouldn't get so many problems, in theory.
Hth.
Couldn't agree more about the Falkens. The Pirellis that were fitted from new on my 2600 CDX Estate were fine even when they were coming to the end of their life but the Falken ZE 912s that I fitted all round were dreadful for tramlining from the word go.
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Yes tramlining from the start here too. On 2 different omegas, 451,452,912 all the same.
Why did I persist buying 3sets consecutively? I could not believe a tyre could cause this fault, and they exceptionally quiet. Proven to be Falkens with thanks to Kevin Wood and TheBoy who allowed me to swap wheels the theirs both shod with Dunlops as it happens, and both very worn.
Worn out Dunlos fitted, problem vanished. Drove straight as a die. Regained my sanity that day let me tell you. ;D