Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: TheBoy on 06 September 2012, 22:20:36
-
TBE has knackered wishbones. The front bushes are poly'd, but rears are shot again. One of the balljoints also has some play.
What should I do.
-
IMO by the time
The front bush has gone and been replaced
The rear bush has gone and been rePlaced
The ball joint has gone and been replaced
The wishbone itself won't be long until its too rusty, and needs to be replaced
Remove and refit as needed, set up each time...
Not worth the agro IMO. Fit new job done. ESP as its you, ya nutter. ;)
Tunnie style driver might be different.
-
In fact, most drivers won't push the car hard enough to find, actually no...CAUSE half the faults you do.
Don't Fu@k about.
...IMO. :)
-
Where the option of replacing with GM arms? ::) ::)
-
Depending on price I'd be tempted to buy el-cheap then press out the front & rear bushes and replace with poly & GM respectively.
-
Depending on price I'd be tempted to buy el-cheap then press out the front & rear bushes and replace with poly & GM respectively.
That or Meyle/Lemforder and poly the front before fitting :y
-
Depending on price I'd be tempted to buy el-cheap then press out the front & rear bushes and replace with poly & GM respectively.
That or Meyle/Lemforder and poly the front before fitting :y
I have a set of el-cheap I've been meaning to do that to (it's getting ever more wandery and the drop link sounds like it's about to fall off - yet they both passed an MOT again today...) - I just assumed that TB would kill anything less than genuine GM bushes in short order given his, erm, reputation for spirited driving :)
-
depending on condition of the arms themselves go for a refurb :y
-
Re-furb, rear bushes (easy enough to do) and new ball joints.
By far the most cost effective to do and less labour.
-
Cheap WB, Vauxhall rear bushes and poly front bushes :)
-
I'd be trying Meyle HD next. Then poly as required at end of life.
-
Re-furb, rear bushes (easy enough to do) and new ball joints.
By far the most cost effective to do and less labour.
Struggling to understand that bit Mr DTM - the wishbones have to come off to do rears, so wouldn't less labour be to then just slap the replacements in? Of course, I'm likely missing something very fundamental... :-[
-
AFAICT, these are the original wishbones, rebushed rear and poly front about 2 years ago.
The MV6 is on its 2nd set of wishbones - I replaced them when they were about 6 years old, so the ones on there are about 8years old now. Current set have been rebushed once, about 3 or 4 years ago, and fronts poly'd about earlier this year.
Despite the age, are genuine GM wishbones, from a structural viewpoint, going to be better than the current crop of new ones? I suspect they are TBH, given some of the recent complaints about Lemforder ones (although there is some theory about ECP selling old stock).
(The warranty aspect is invalid anyway, as my first port of call for new wishbones will be to cut out the front bushes, and shove the polys in.)
Though I lack the drifts to get the rear bushes out, and replacements in, if I refurb mine.
Decisions, decisions :-\
-
Re-furb, rear bushes (easy enough to do) and new ball joints.
By far the most cost effective to do and less labour.
Struggling to understand that bit Mr DTM - the wishbones have to come off to do rears, so wouldn't less labour be to then just slap the replacements in? Of course, I'm likely missing something very fundamental... :-[
But then you are fitting an inferior item as no polybushes.....more labour requried assuming you will be looking to maintain the same standard. :y
-
Re-furb, rear bushes (easy enough to do) and new ball joints.
By far the most cost effective to do and less labour.
Struggling to understand that bit Mr DTM - the wishbones have to come off to do rears, so wouldn't less labour be to then just slap the replacements in? Of course, I'm likely missing something very fundamental... :-[
But then you are fitting an inferior item as no polybushes.....more labour requried assuming you will be looking to maintain the same standard. :y
Yes, the polys are going straight in, though its not that hard to cut out new bushes, and pop in the polys. Must be easier than rebushes rears without any drifts, and then fitting a balljoint?
Its a question not a statement, as I've never changed an Omega balljoint, or got out the rear bushes - although I've watched you a few times, but that was with presses and drifts...
-
The correct sized socket and a vice plus potentialy a hammer works on the rear bushes.
Ball joints are easy enough with a grinder.
That way you could fit genuine ball joint and rear bushes.
-
Rears come out in the same way as fronts, blow torch then hacksaw :y
I'm really, really lazy, and even I've refurbed mine :y
Fronts poly, rears VX, original (pattern) ball joints about to be replaced with new pattern (for convenience, local factor had pair in stock, VX ones four times price and two day wait).
When they fail, which they will ::), new VX ones will be waiting to go on, and should only take minutes to change :y
-
The correct sized socket and a vice plus potentialy a hammer works on the rear bushes.
Ball joints are easy enough with a grinder.
That way you could fit genuine ball joint and rear bushes.
Normal people don't have sockets used on Type 47s ;D
Anything in the Hellfrauds set big enough?
-
The correct sized socket and a vice plus potentialy a hammer works on the rear bushes.
Ball joints are easy enough with a grinder.
That way you could fit genuine ball joint and rear bushes.
Normal people don't have sockets used on Type 47s ;D
Anything in the Hellfrauds set big enough?
Probably, there not that big.
You emean you dont have 3/4 and 1 inch drive sockets in sizes exceeding 50mm?
-
Rear bushes - £14.31 each
Balljoint - £45.95 each :o
Trade price, exc VAT, from dealer
Lemforder balljoint - £16.80 each (AGP)
Lemforder wishbones - £65 each (AGP)
Meyle wishbones - £84 each (AGP)
QH wishbones - £43 each (AGP)
Inc VAT, exc P&P
So:
Refurb:
GM bushes and balljoint - £90ish
GM bushes, LF balljoint - £35ish
Renew:
LF - £130
M - £170
QH - £90
Cost not massively important, given the work fitting, and cost of aligning.
-
The correct sized socket and a vice plus potentialy a hammer works on the rear bushes.
Ball joints are easy enough with a grinder.
That way you could fit genuine ball joint and rear bushes.
Normal people don't have sockets used on Type 47s ;D
Anything in the Hellfrauds set big enough?
Probably, there not that big.
You emean you dont have 3/4 and 1 inch drive sockets in sizes exceeding 50mm?
Hellfrauds goes up to 32mm and 11/4"
-
Sounds like Marks talking hImself into a job. ;D :y ...actually, yes, re furbing is a brilliant idea. Go for it. :-X ::)
While its arguable re-furbing is the way, not all owners have confidence to mess about. Plus the possibility of introducing further faults in the process.
While its easy to advise what you would do on your own cars, with the expertise you have available, it's the op that we need to bare in mind.
So we're basickly down to the integrity of the arms themselves, and the re furb process going smoothly.
I'd rather have rivets on me ball joints myself.
LF with poly here, not failed yet so can't advise life on the latest crop of about 18 months ago.
-
i agree with chrisgixer.
i have the LF ones on mine and yes i prob should have put front poly bushes on them,which i will do when they current ones fitted fail.
i am confident at doing most stuff some with guidance but i think and hate to admit it refurbing wishboones is a little past my abilites. I still have my old wishbones although a little rusty just incase i decide at a later date to attempt a refurb.
I my case it was more convenient to just put the LF straight on and see how the ride goes. I some of your eyes i may have made the wrong decision but as a first time doing wishbones personally its what was best for me. i think the price was about £130 which is a stones throw compaired to full GM wishbones.
Time will tell if they last or not.
-
Sounds like Marks talking hImself into a job. ;D :y ...actually, yes, re furbing is a brilliant idea. Go for it. :-X ::)
While its arguable re-furbing is the way, not all owners have confidence to mess about. Plus the possibility of introducing further faults in the process.
While its easy to advise what you would do on your own cars, with the expertise you have available, it's the op that we need to bare in mind.
So we're basickly down to the integrity of the arms themselves, and the re furb process going smoothly.
I'd rather have rivets on me ball joints myself.
LF with poly here, not failed yet so can't advise life on the latest crop of about 18 months ago.
Same policy here, with no issues to date :y :y :y
-
JImbob did yours have the production date laser etched onto the arms themselves?
-
i seem to recall they were about 1 month old!
-
i seem to recall they were about 1 month old!
So yes?
-
If a 10t press is easier than a large vice for the rear bushes... I now own a 10t press :-[ welcome to come use it anytime ;) (especially if you help me assemble it and put it on the workbench! ;D)
-
Spooky.
I fitted LFs about 2 years ago and kept the old ones for a refurb.
I have just pressed out the rear bushes using my home made 10 ton press and a selection of sockets from my 3/4" socket set :).
I tried last weekend and failed :( because the bushes were rusted in. This time I started by drilling a 6mm hole through the rubber and using an Abrafile (spelling?) in my hacksaw to cut a slot in the outer part of the bush.
Struggling now to find a suitable socket to fit the front bushes.......
PS there is no way my vice would be hefty enough to shift those bushes. It might be up to the task of pressing the new ones in though.
-
Struggling now to find a suitable socket to fit the front bushes.......
I think the recommendation would be to cut out the fronts, and use polys instead
-
While its easy to advise what you would do on your own cars, with the expertise you have available, it's the op that we need to bare in mind.
A valid point in any scenario :y
While its arguable re-furbing is the way, not all owners have confidence to mess about. Plus the possibility of introducing further faults in the process.
Although its equally likely that some part of the new part could have introduce faults.
-
i seem to recall they were about 1 month old!
So well within warranty when they failed... ...but the warranty isn't really feasible.
-
If a 10t press is easier than a large vice for the rear bushes... I now own a 10t press :-[ welcome to come use it anytime ;) (especially if you help me assemble it and put it on the workbench! ;D)
I'll give you a few days to build it ;D
-
PS there is no way my vice would be hefty enough to shift those bushes. It might be up to the task of pressing the new ones in though.
I'm probably luck in the respect my fronts are already polyed, so they will just fall out, and the rears have only been in 2 years. Although 2 years is disappointing from genuine GM.
-
i seem to recall they were about 1 month old!
So well within warranty when they failed... ...but the warranty isn't really feasible.
exactly, would be without the car for weeks while no wishbones as sent of for inspection, then replaced. not worth it.
-
Has anyone tried the Meyle wishbones?
-
Struggling now to find a suitable socket to fit the front bushes.......
I think the recommendation would be to cut out the fronts, and use polys instead
That is the plan. I just prefer to press the old ones out if I can. :) Failing that make a single cut in the outer bush (and then press it out).
-
only recently been available afaik.
I am running the meyle HD droplinks, and am very impressed, seem the best quality ive ever had.
-
Who supplies Meyle kit?
-
Who supplies Meyle kit?
AGP
-
Struggling now to find a suitable socket to fit the front bushes.......
I think the recommendation would be to cut out the fronts, and use polys instead
That is the plan. I just prefer to press the old ones out if I can. :) Failing that make a single cut in the outer bush (and then press it out).
Think you'll need a good press to get fronts out....
-
only recently been available afaik.
I am running the meyle HD droplinks, and am very impressed, seem the best quality ive ever had.
I've used Elring gaskets before, but wouldn't use them on Omega camcovers ;)
-
Struggling now to find a suitable socket to fit the front bushes.......
I think the recommendation would be to cut out the fronts, and use polys instead
That is the plan. I just prefer to press the old ones out if I can. :) Failing that make a single cut in the outer bush (and then press it out).
Think you'll need a good press to get fronts out....
They're out ! :y
They took a fair bit of force & when they did go they went with a bang and a cloud of rust. I cut most of the way through the outer bush but I didn't want to score the bore in the arm because that is what the polyurethane bush will be seated against.
Just need to drill the rivets out of the balljoints & then I can start reassembly. :)
-
PS there is no way my vice would be hefty enough to shift those bushes. It might be up to the task of pressing the new ones in though.
I'm probably luck in the respect my fronts are already polyed, so they will just fall out, and the rears have only been in 2 years. Although 2 years is disappointing from genuine GM.
it's less than two years, the pull you have now is the same Slight pull you had after we re tightened the the wb bolts. Just It's worse. Which directly reflects the condition Of the worst bush that's failed.
The bush may have failed on the under side, hence we didn't spot it when tightening bolts. But it's the same, but worse, fault.
As a note, those symptoms that you may remember, are indicative of a failed rear ward bush. Loose bolts(ESP the rearward) and failed rearward bush give that same odd pull on the brakes. It's effectively shortening the steering tie rod length on one side. Which makes the steering wheel turn in your hands in order to keep the car straight.
If anyone has that fault it's the rear bush. Not something we see often in help section iirc..,?
-
Although we may do now more people have polly I suppose...?
-
With different springs and poly bushes, are all the shocks now being directed through the only weakpoint left :-\
There isn't really anything to the rear bush.
1. The outer shell.
2. The central bush, which is a simple tube, crushed in such a way that it bulges in the middle.
3. The damping rubber.
The outer shell cannot move, the central bush is mounted vertically, with nothing but rubber holding it all together.
What would the pros and cons be of replacing the soft squishy rubber with poly...
-
Q razzo...
But by my last comment I mean...
That if the front genuine bush fails, then the rear, giving four failed bushes then its difficult to tell what bush is causing what fault/pull sensation etc.
But if the front bush is reliable as in poly, then the only fault left is the rear bush that can only give the sensation TB had on his car, although if bad enough they can knock as well. Assuming both bushes don't fail at the exact same rate to even up the play exactly.
Razzo has a polly solution, of sorts, but IMHO there needs to be a way to locate the height of the wishbone on the bush, as the bulb shape does in the oe bush, without restricting movement and transmitting forces through the metal arm itself. As that is a crumple zone area, and I can vouch personally for that one. :(
-
With different springs and poly bushes, are all the shocks now being directed through the only weakpoint left :-\
There isn't really anything to the rear bush.
1. The outer shell.
2. The central bush, which is a simple tube, crushed in such a way that it bulges in the middle.
3. The damping rubber.
The outer shell cannot move, the central bush is mounted vertically, with nothing but rubber holding it all together.
What would the pros and cons be of replacing the soft squishy rubber with poly...
pressed poly rears into mine about 2 years & 40k miles ago, advice from one of the poly bush maufacturers was don't as it will cause too much vibration so asked Tony at WIM & he said it won't be a problem. Bush is not bonded so will not rip but they have to be pressed in with a bench vice, just finishing refurbing a pair for SWMBO's car
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0021.jpg) :y
-
With different springs and poly bushes, are all the shocks now being directed through the only weakpoint left :-\
There isn't really anything to the rear bush.
1. The outer shell.
2. The central bush, which is a simple tube, crushed in such a way that it bulges in the middle.
3. The damping rubber.
The outer shell cannot move, the central bush is mounted vertically, with nothing but rubber holding it all together.
What would the pros and cons be of replacing the soft squishy rubber with poly...
pressed poly rears into mine about 2 years & 40k miles ago, advice from one of the poly bush maufacturers was don't as it will cause too much vibration so asked Tony at WIM & he said it won't be a problem. Bush is not bonded so will not rip but they have to be pressed in with a bench vice, just finishing refurbing a pair for SWMBO's car
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0021.jpg) :y
Hmmm, that looks to be an option worth testing...
-
And heres some comparison pics of LF bones I found while looking for sumat else
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/18a876c2.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/a09a846e.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/fd545181.jpg)
-
Is the LF the old one or the shiney one?
-
Not sure if it's just me, but I'm not totally comfortable with the way one of Razzo's above pictures has the balljoint assembly bolted on. I'm sure it's fine, but...
Maybe you need to use bolts with a certain shear tolerance etc.. is this known? :)
-
Who supplies Meyle kit?
AGP
I had a look at the Meyle suspension arms on the Allgerman web site and it struck me how little the Omega front suspension has advanced since the 'V' platform was launched in the late 1970's :(
I think my MkI Carlton had the same wishbones (with the steering stop that destroys itself if the front suspension moves with steering on full lock) :(
-
pressed poly rears into mine about 2 years & 40k miles ago, advice from one of the poly bush maufacturers was don't as it will cause too much vibration so asked Tony at WIM & he said it won't be a problem. Bush is not bonded so will not rip but they have to be pressed in with a bench vice, just finishing refurbing a pair for SWMBO's car
I really do like the idea of Poly rear bush but is the highlighted bit above the very reason that they don't sell the rear bush. Surely, if they thought they could market it they would have done, especially as they already have the kit for the front bush. :-\
Maybe they're not willing to risk it in case of come backs for the reasons stated above. Hopefully Razzo has proved these concerns to be unjustified. :-\
They do look good though and I respect the workmanship and time that has gone in to producing them. :y
Reference the bolt-on ball joint, it specifically tells you to only use the bolts supplied with the replacement ball joint. :y
-
"
Is the LF the old one or the shiney one?
LF is the shiny new.
It's quite an old pic though, and I can't verify the make of the rusty one. I believe rusty one is what Mark kindly refurbed with Merle heavy duty bushes at Newent.
-
Not sure if it's just me, but I'm not totally comfortable with the way one of Razzo's above pictures has the balljoint assembly bolted on. I'm sure it's fine, but...
Maybe you need to use bolts with a certain shear tolerance etc.. is this known? :)
I have just drilled out the rivets on my old wishbones and they were easy to drill so not high tensile.
The bolts in the photo look like the ones that came with the ball joints I collected from Evans Halshaw on Friday. (if that proves anything.......)
It looks to me as though there is a large clamped surface between the sheet metal of the wishbone and the forging of the ball joint. The bolts (machine screws?) don't seem to have any straight shank (ie they are fully threaded) so the clamping force must do all the work.
-
From a repair/maintainance perspective, bolted must be better :-\
Can't see the ball joint assembly being any different regardless of how it's attatched :y
-
Not sure if it's just me, but I'm not totally comfortable with the way one of Razzo's above pictures has the balljoint assembly bolted on. I'm sure it's fine, but...
Maybe you need to use bolts with a certain shear tolerance etc.. is this known? :)
those bolts are the ones that came with the ball joint from VX dealer
-
No concerns with bolting the ball joints... Many other manufacturers have used that method for a very long time ;)
Personally looking at the potential of rebushing and new joints on mine but may well fit new bones (poly'd) and then prep these ones over time, including a rub down and re-paint :-\
-
Who supplies Meyle kit?
AGP
I had a look at the Meyle suspension arms on the Allgerman web site and it struck me how little the Omega front suspension has advanced since the 'V' platform was launched in the late 1970's :(
I think my MkI Carlton had the same wishbones (with the steering stop that destroys itself if the front suspension moves with steering on full lock) :(
Omega is a V chassis, so will use V chassis components, albeit in a (hopefully!) more refined/tweaked format. Omega is the last of teh Opel/Vauxhall V chassis designs, although Holden still use it.
-
From a repair/maintainance perspective, bolted must be better :-\
Can't see the ball joint assembly being any different regardless of how it's attatched :y
Agreed, I have no concerns with bolted balljoints.
-
Who supplies Meyle kit?
AGP
I had a look at the Meyle suspension arms on the Allgerman web site and it struck me how little the Omega front suspension has advanced since the 'V' platform was launched in the late 1970's :(
I think my MkI Carlton had the same wishbones (with the steering stop that destroys itself if the front suspension moves with steering on full lock) :(
Omega is a V chassis, so will use V chassis components, albeit in a (hopefully!) more refined/tweaked format. Omega is the last of teh Opel/Vauxhall V chassis designs, although Holden still use it.
My Mk1 Carlton had a live rear axle, an engine with a cast iron head, points & distributor ignition, a carburetor and no ABS or traction control. - non of these things carried on in the design of the Omega.
Two things that I have always thought were a bit weak on the Omega are the front wishbones and the steering box (instead of a rack) both of which contribute to the 'luxury barge' steering feel ::)