Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 27 March 2013, 17:59:01
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Today we think of Dr. Beeching publishing his report on The Future Of The Railways. It was a sad day when this accountant, who had no railway experience, and believed the age of the train was at an end, closed in rapid haste thousands of miles of track, thousands of stations, cut tens of thousands of jobs, destroying almost overnight a way of life and the ability of thousands to commute to places outside their communities.
Yes, there were branch lines that would never be economic to retain, but many others, plus main lines, would close based purely on biased passenger counting, and with no consideration on the business they generated for the railways overall by feeding traffic into the main, profitable, lines, along with no regard for future traffic growth. A blinkered, unimaginative accountant at a stroke ruined the UK's once World beating transport system, putting thousands of loyal railwayman out of work, and the potential for it to grow and develop curtailed almost fatally. His masters of course were the politicians of the day, again a short sighted, unimaginative lot as well! Yes, the driving force was to save money, to stop huge losses, but there was another way to keep this vital national service alive and to save money. However, that would be too hard for Beeching and the politicians to deal with, so the easy option was taken.
Fifty years on the railways have beaten the predictions of 1963 and are handling more traffic than ever known before in their history, with the 'blank' railwayless areas of the country ruing the day Dr. Beeching was put to work.
Damn Beeching and his political masters. Long live the new railway age that is now and to come!
The future is fast, the future is high speed train! :y :y :y :y :y :y
From the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21951552
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I guessed that you'd be the first to comment on this, Lizzie.
Destroyer of railways or simply a pragmatist with a job to do?
If you love trains then It's likely that you'd prefer the company of Satan to that of Beeching. ;)
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I guessed that you'd be the first to comment on this, Lizzie.
Destroyer of railways or simply a pragmatist with a job to do?
If you love trains then It's likely that you'd prefer the company of Satan to that of Beeching. ;)
Dead right Opti! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
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I guessed that you'd be the first to comment on this, Lizzie.
Destroyer of railways or simply a pragmatist with a job to do?
If you love trains then It's likely that you'd prefer the company of Satan to that of Beeching. ;)
Dead right Opti! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
Michael Palin hates Beeching, too.......so he must be a bastard. ;D :-* :-* :-*
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Dig him up and hang him for treason. Ankwa... >:(
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Dig him up and hang him for treason. Ankwa...
.......It was good enough for Dickie 3. ;)...although he did get the hump about it.
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Dig him up and hang him for treason. Ankwa...
.......It was good enough for Dickie 3. ;)...although he did get the hump about it.
They did it, well dug him up and beheaded him, with the Lord Protector, Cromwell, and as a loyalist I have supported that action against a traitor! 8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;)
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The biggest mistake was selling off the land, sure shut them down, rip them up to save money. But they should never have sold off the land.
That said, we have one of the best preserved railways in the world, closed lines have become a steam train heaven now.
If he had not shut all those lines, would we have what we have now? 100's of private run trusts for train lovers.
Some places have become more popular because there are no train lines....
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The biggest mistake was selling off the land, sure shut them down, rip them up to save money. But they should never have sold off the land.
That said, we have one of the best preserved railways in the world, closed lines have become a steam train heaven now.
If he had not shut all those lines, would we have what we have now? 100's of private run trusts for train lovers.
Some places have become more popular because there are no train lines....
Agreed Tunnie! :y :y :y The land should have been retained in most cases for possible future railway use.
You are also right about the gains made by the steam / diesel preservation movement by all those lines being available for their use. But they only represent a few hundred miles of thousands lost, which the 'movement' will never be able to take over fully. i.e. the whole of The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, and The Great Central Main Line - both very useful potential lines now, but both heavily destroyed by housing and commercial development. :'( :'(
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The other argument is if the cuts had not taken place, there would be no HS2 for you ;)
Lost big main line to London, but perhaps gained HS, some 50 years later?
Lines back then were build to serve freight, but that went down hill, no more slate, no more coal. At the time, it appeared the right thing to do.
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The other argument is if the cuts had not taken place, there would be no HS2 for you ;)
Lost big main line to London, but perhaps gained HS, some 50 years later?
Lines back then were build to serve freight, but that went down hill, no more slate, no more coal. At the time, it appeared the right thing to do.
That Tunnie is of course speculation now. It could be argued that if the powers to be had kept faith with the future of railways, Britain could have developed a HS system, as Japan and France has, long ago. HS2, and 1, and possibly 3 & 4 could have existed by now leading the World. Typical of GB, short sightedness and dull imagination took over, and the result is what we have today. A system needing billions, possibly trillions of pounds to come up to date and recover from at least 70 years of neglect. ;)
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Dig him up and hang him for treason. Ankwa...
.......It was good enough for Dickie 3. ;)...although he did get the hump about it.
They did it, well dug him up and beheaded him, with the Lord Protector, Cromwell, and as a loyalist I have supported that action against a traitor! 8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;)
Loyalist...or Royalist?
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Beeching had a job to do so a job he did - suitable for the then projected needs as seen.
Looking back from now with inflated fuel costs for cars, road conjestion as well as the strength of preservation societies et al, perhaps sale of the land the lines ran on were a mistake. In my opinion there is a current demand for rural lines and tourist type traffic. There is a need round my way for a line round he east Neuk of fife simply as a tourist route to and from St. Andrews and in my (limited) opinion, it would be cost effective as a preservation line. Sadly, the land is sold and gone so costs now to reinstate would be outrageous!
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For me Beeching was a scape goat for the governments of the time. He produced a report as per his remit and parliament carried out what they wanted to do (and were already doing).
Also remember, he made modern freight.
For me a man who was miss understood
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For me Beeching was a scape goat for the governments of the time. He produced a report as per his remit and parliament carried out what they wanted to do (and were already doing).
Also remember, he made modern freight.
For me a man who was miss understood
They knew how much flack he would get, all deflected from them. That's why they paid him £20,000 to produce it, the equivalent of £350,000 today.
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Dig him up and hang him for treason. Ankwa...
.......It was good enough for Dickie 3. ;)...although he did get the hump about it.
They did it, well dug him up and beheaded him, with the Lord Protector, Cromwell, and as a loyalist I have supported that action against a traitor! 8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;)
Loyalist...or Royalist?
Both! I am loyal to the crown and it's functions, and as far as Charles I was concerned and those old fashioned monarchs, I would have been a Royalist and helping actively the men folk in their fight against the Parliamentarians. The traitors. ;)
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Hmmmmmm....you'd have been beheaded then. ;D
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Hmmmmmm....you'd have been beheaded then. ;D
No, the ladies were spared. Not like in the French Revolution, as we are British! ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Hmmmmmm....you'd have been beheaded then. ;D
No, the ladies were spared. Not like in the French Revolution, as we are British! ;D ;D ;D ;)
OK. Put in the stocks, surely? Or burned at the stake? Yes, I like that one better. :y
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Hmmmmmm....you'd have been beheaded then. ;D
No, the ladies were spared. Not like in the French Revolution, as we are British! ;D ;D ;D ;)
That Robespierre was a nice friendly chap, Lizzie. :) :-* :-*
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For me Beeching was a scape goat for the governments of the time. He produced a report as per his remit and parliament carried out what they wanted to do (and were already doing).
Also remember, he made modern freight.
For me a man who was miss understood
They knew how much flack he would get, all deflected from them. That's why they paid him £20,000 to produce it, the equivalent of £350,000 today.
Yes, and like an assassin he went along with it all like the grey, accountant, man he was! But also yes, his political masters used him with his blessing, as (it is hard for me to say this!!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[) Conservative politicians tend to use fall guys when executing a policy that they know will give them much heartache and bad press if they don't! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Hmmmmmm....you'd have been beheaded then. ;D
No, the ladies were spared. Not like in the French Revolution, as we are British! ;D ;D ;D ;)
That Robespierre was a nice friendly chap, Lizzie. :) :-* :-*
........and that is why he ended up dead! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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We all end up dead, Lizzie. ::)
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We all end up dead, Lizzie. ::)
But, hopefully, not by way of the guillotine as Robespierre did! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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We all end up dead, Lizzie. ::)
But, hopefully, not by way of the guillotine as Robespierre did! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
I can think of worse ways. Like ending up in an NHS run hospital after the tories have finished cutting.
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We all end up dead, Lizzie. ::)
But, hopefully, not by way of the guillotine as Robespierre did! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
I can think of worse ways. Like ending up in an NHS run hospital after the tories have finished cutting.
Indeed, death by a very slow process (to save money!!) :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;)
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The cuts didn't go deep enough in the 60s. The service cannot isn't financially viable, thus needs IRO 50% subsidy.
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The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization. Once you lose market force solutions, you either legally steal money off people to subsidize something and in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Once a company is in public ownership then there is no rational efficient allocation of capital. Is is all done for political reasons. BT was another classic example of this, where you had to wait years for a phone line, once they were privatized and had competition, then they had to raise money to invest, compete and survive.
What they should have done, if the branch lines were so viable, is privatise them and let imaginative entrepreneurs, cut costs and market them effectively, which is what the tourist / preservation societies have done.
Personally, I don't think the railways should be a subsidised form of transport. Make it work or turn them into motorways seems a sensible way forward to me.
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For me Beeching was a scape goat for the governments of the time. He produced a report as per his remit and parliament carried out what they wanted to do (and were already doing).
Also remember, he made modern freight.
For me a man who was miss understood
My sentiments exactly.
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The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization.
You really think so Rod ... perhaps you'd like to quantify that statement ... 'cos I'm 'all ears' here ... ???
Off topic maybe, but:
in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Another misguided/misleading statement ...
The Trade Unions learned from the aftermath of the privatisation of the bus industry, and was my own reason for leaving after nearly 25 years service - the first half of that period being in the good days of NBC; with a reasonable wage/conditions and a decent pension. The latter half saw managers become directors, who then often became millionaires - at the expense of my pay packet and pension, which was frozen at privatisation. Privatisation of the rail industry saw BR pensions 'carried over' to individual TOCs ... in simple terms, the staff didn't lose out.
Bus driver: Around £18k per annum for a 40-hour basic 5-day week
Train driver: Generally upwards of £40k basic per annum for a 35-hour 4-day week in many cases
Given the choice (as I was fortunate enough to be given) which position would you choose?
-
The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization. Once you lose market force solutions, you either legally steal money off people to subsidize something and in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Once a company is in public ownership then there is no rational efficient allocation of capital. Is is all done for political reasons. BT was another classic example of this, where you had to wait years for a phone line, once they were privatized and had competition, then they had to raise money to invest, compete and survive.
What they should have done, if the branch lines were so viable, is privatise them and let imaginative entrepreneurs, cut costs and market them effectively, which is what the tourist / preservation societies have done.
Personally, I don't think the railways should be a subsidised form of transport. Make it work or turn them into motorways seems a sensible way forward to me.
As usual Rods2, you have hit the nail on the head. From a financial point of view a fresh approach should have been exercised in running the railways, after two big mistakes had been made.
1/ The railways should never have been nationalised in 1948 as The Big Four could/ would have successfully run their systems IF the Labour government had paid the railways the true market value of using their services during WW2.
2/ The 1955 Modernisation Plan had been constructed in a way that really got to grips with the true value of the railway and laid down sensible, imaginative, and viable plans for the future. It in fact was a failure of policy making by the then Conservative government, which required much later tinkering and ham fisted adjustments. We ended up with a shambles of a plan, that resulted in the acts made by Dr. Beeching.
:( :(
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The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization.
You really think so Rod ... perhaps you'd like to quantify that statement ... 'cos I'm 'all ears' here ... ???
Off topic maybe, but:
in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Another misguided/misleading statement ...
The Trade Unions learned from the aftermath of the privatisation of the bus industry, and was my own reason for leaving after nearly 25 years service - the first half of that period being in the good days of NBC; with a reasonable wage/conditions and a decent pension. The latter half saw managers become directors, who then often became millionaires - at the expense of my pay packet and pension, which was frozen at privatisation. Privatisation of the rail industry saw BR pensions 'carried over' to individual TOCs ... in simple terms, the staff didn't lose out.
Bus driver: Around £18k per annum for a 40-hour basic 5-day week
Train driver: Generally upwards of £40k basic per annum for a 35-hour 4-day week in many cases
Given the choice (as I was fortunate enough to be given) which position would you choose?
As an aside, my mate next door was the BR Director who fought for this and got it through against the Government's wishes (surprise surprise!) :y
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The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization.
You really think so Rod ... perhaps you'd like to quantify that statement ... 'cos I'm 'all ears' here ... ???
Off topic maybe, but:
in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Another misguided/misleading statement ...
The Trade Unions learned from the aftermath of the privatisation of the bus industry, and was my own reason for leaving after nearly 25 years service - the first half of that period being in the good days of NBC; with a reasonable wage/conditions and a decent pension. The latter half saw managers become directors, who then often became millionaires - at the expense of my pay packet and pension, which was frozen at privatisation. Privatisation of the rail industry saw BR pensions 'carried over' to individual TOCs ... in simple terms, the staff didn't lose out.
Bus driver: Around £18k per annum for a 40-hour basic 5-day week
Train driver: Generally upwards of £40k basic per annum for a 35-hour 4-day week in many cases
Given the choice (as I was fortunate enough to be given) which position would you choose?
Go with the money is never a bad piece of advice. My brother while a bus driver had started buying and selling stuff to make money on the side and he had the foresight to see what was going to happen, so he left and started his own shop, which he still runs. What he started selling to what he sells now is completely different, where he changed the ranges of goods until he made a good living.
-
The biggest mistake made was by Labour with their nationalization. Once you lose market force solutions, you either legally steal money off people to subsidize something and in Labour's case give in to their paymaster unions, which is why train drivers earn much more than drivers in private bus companies.
Once a company is in public ownership then there is no rational efficient allocation of capital. Is is all done for political reasons. BT was another classic example of this, where you had to wait years for a phone line, once they were privatized and had competition, then they had to raise money to invest, compete and survive.
What they should have done, if the branch lines were so viable, is privatise them and let imaginative entrepreneurs, cut costs and market them effectively, which is what the tourist / preservation societies have done.
Personally, I don't think the railways should be a subsidised form of transport. Make it work or turn them into motorways seems a sensible way forward to me.
As usual Rods2, you have hit the nail on the head. From a financial point of view a fresh approach should have been exercised in running the railways, after two big mistakes had been made.
1/ The railways should never have been nationalised in 1948 as The Big Four could/ would have successfully run their systems IF the Labour government had paid the railways the true market value of using their services during WW2.
2/ The 1955 Modernisation Plan had been constructed in a way that really got to grips with the true value of the railway and laid down sensible, imaginative, and viable plans for the future. It in fact was a failure of policy making by the then Conservative government, which required much later tinkering and ham fisted adjustments. We ended up with a shambles of a plan, that resulted in the acts made by Dr. Beeching.
:( :(
Privatization with many companies running trains in competition on lines was a good concept but was very badly implemented but with a few sensible changes it could have been made to work very well. If it had been we would now all be benefiting from cheaper fares.
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I think some cuts probably had to be made to the network as car ownership after WW2 became more common, but Dr Beeching's axe was particularly savage!!! :o
Our little town on the West Dorset coast had a branch line to the main Exeter to London Waterloo line which is 5 miles away, if it was still in existence today I really can't see many people using it as the mainline station is 15 minutes by car. :-\
Having said that it would have been an ideal tourist steamtrain line as the route winds it's way through some very pretty countryside and a one point over a viaduct to end up at the seaside. Sadly this will never happen as quite alot of the line has been sold off. :(
Thinking about it we should bring back Dr Beeching to sort out the welfare state!! ;)