Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Jimbob on 08 April 2013, 12:53:35
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
Love her or hate her, she is gone now!
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I'm the latter. But il give her her due, she had some balls, unlike the wet blankets that have occupied No10 since .
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I feel for her family but I won't lose any sleep over it
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Some will be sad, some will be glad, some won't care one way or the other. But, whatever you thought of her, she certainly has a place in history.
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i agree that i won't lose any sleep,however i would prefer to hear about bliars demise,lying,cheating, slimeball... >:(
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
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She had more balls than ANY of the blokes in government in the postwar period. R.I.P.
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She got serious critics during the time of strikes though nowdays experts rather accept she done than not. R.I.P.
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RIP Maggie. Sad news :'(
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R.I.P. Maggie
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
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The BBC news has been prattling for an hour about it. I got it within a few seconds of them saying Thatcher had popped off >:(
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I assume those nice death T shirts will make an appearance again >:(
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
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end of an era RIP maggie
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Can't argue with that.
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
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RIP Maggie. Sad news :'(
+1
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Love or hate, still the best primer minister since the war....and I totaly respect what she did to the unions as it was long overdue
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I'll give her some credit for The Falklands, and sorting the unions out. But almost everything else she should have been shot for IMO. Cost me a bloody fortune as a yoof.
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We all have to die. Some will miss her, I'm not one of them.
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
To commerate his his death in 1965 every school child was given a Churchill Crown :y
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
.......she was certainly the big swinging dick of the eighties. ::) ::) ;)
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Hate her,she had her own private police force when she was in dispute with the unions,at least she wasn't as bad as Churchill he shot the strikers.
Alfie.
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
To commerate his his death in 1965 every school child was given a Churchill Crown :y
I was at school in 1965, I wasn't given one. :'(
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Love or hate, still the best primer minister since the war....and I totaly respect what she did to the unions as it was long overdue
+1 :y :y
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
To commerate his his death in 1965 every school child was given a Churchill Crown :y
I was at school in 1965, I wasn't given one. :'(
Perhaps it was up to the local council ???
I've got 3 spare, first three pm's with an address gets one :y
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RIP Baroness Thatcher one of kind, could do with someone like you now. You may have been a woman but you had bigger balls than the weasels running the country today.
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Can't argue with that.
Me neither :'(
Looks like we're back to Plan B to sort out the current poo shower though ::)
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When she was in office I was a young daft naive lefty.I can well remember saying I would go and get pissed to celebrate when she died. Having now grown up (just a llittle bit) and learnt to live in the real world, I see it quite differently.
I still disagree with some of what she did and I also think she should have done some things she didnt,but overall I have no doubt that she was the greatest peacetime PM in living memory.
The country could definitely do with her running it now.We would never have got into this mess if she had been in office.
R.I.P. Maggie. :(
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R.I.P. Maggie. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
If only we had you now heading the Conservative Party! :'( :'(
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She did some bad things but then who doesn't and she done some good things like bring pride back to a broken Britain, just a shame the powers to be since have let it all go. >:( >:( R.I.P Maggie.
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The worst thing she did was back down on the Poll Tax.
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When she was in office I was a young daft naive lefty.I can well remember saying I would go and get pissed to celebrate when she died. Having now grown up (just a llittle bit) and learnt to live in the real world, I see it quite differently.
I still disagree with some of what she did and I also think she should have done some things she didnt,but overall I have no doubt that she was the greatest peacetime PM in living memory.
The country could definitely do with her running it now.We would never have got into this mess if she had been in office.
R.I.P. Maggie. :(
Couldn't agree more Albs :y :y :y
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oh get real people she was'nt perfect--she knew about Falklands 5/6months before but hung out for election time to do something about it and conning people about buy your home!!!! so no I wont miss her and sure there are plenty out in the world who feel the same way-
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Greatest PM since Churchill, we need someone of her caliber at the wheel now. No doubt get as many haters, but would get done what needs to be done.
RIP :'(
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R.I.P. Maggie. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
If only we had you now heading the Conservative Party! :'( :'(
Gawd help us, Lizzie.... :-* :-* :-*
Knifed in the back by her own party, I believe. ;)
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Without doubt, the best PM is living memory. Not like the media cock sucking morons we've had since.
Lets look at what good she did (or tried to do):
Mullered the unions, which was essential - if anyone had family in the nationalised industries in the 70s, they'll know why.
Poll tax (OK, she failed on that one).
Falklands.
Cut out a whole sackload of waste in the government departments.
Got good deals in the EU
All this stuff has been squandered, and more besides, but subsequent spineless morons. So now we have unsustainable burdens of NHS, Education and Welfare, with no value for the money spent. Massive bills into the EU. A deficit that will take generations to pay off, even if we could stop the overspend right now. The highest VAT rate the country has seen. Its a mess that needs a PM with super sized gonads, which rules out all the current wannabes.
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R.I.P. Maggie. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
If only we had you now heading the Conservative Party! :'( :'(
Gawd help us, Lizzie.... :-* :-* :-*
Knifed in the back by her own party, I believe. ;)
In the process of enhancing their own political careers, and not in the interests of the country. Look what happened to the Conservative after that! ::) ::) ::) ;)
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Without doubt, the best PM is living memory. Not like the media cock sucking morons we've had since.
Lets look at what good she did (or tried to do):
Mullered the unions, which was essential - if anyone had family in the nationalised industries in the 70s, they'll know why.
Poll tax (OK, she failed on that one).
Falklands.
Cut out a whole sackload of waste in the government departments.
Got good deals in the EU
All this stuff has been squandered, and more besides, but subsequent spineless morons. So now we have unsustainable burdens of NHS, Education and Welfare, with no value for the money spent. Massive bills into the EU. A deficit that will take generations to pay off, even if we could stop the overspend right now. The highest VAT rate the country has seen. Its a mess that needs a PM with super sized gonads, which rules out all the current wannabes.
Also brought the USSR together in talks with the USA that led to the end of the Cold War and communism in Russia. :y :y
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R.I.P. Maggie. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
If only we had you now heading the Conservative Party! :'( :'(
Gawd help us, Lizzie.... :-* :-* :-*
Knifed in the back by her own party, I believe. ;)
In the process of enhancing their own political careers, and not in the interests of the country. Look what happened to the Conservative after that! ::) ::) ::) ;)
I agree on that point. ;) :-* :-*
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RIP . She has gone to a far better place than this planet :(
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I'm watching the local news in Yorkshire. They need a beep machine. ;D
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RIP . She has gone to a far better place than this planet :(
Where's that then?
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Love her or hate her, one thing's for sure. We will never see the likes of Maggie Thatcher again! :( RIP Maggie! :)
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I'm watching the local news in Yorkshire. They need a beep machine. ;D
Apparently Liverpool town center is booming, right or wrong I wont judge but she certainly provoked strong feelings in this city!
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I'm watching the local news in Yorkshire. They need a beep machine. ;D
Apparently Liverpool town center is booming, right or wrong I wont judge but she certainly provoked strong feelings in this city!
She wasn't so popular up north. ::) ::) ;)
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The greatest prime minister I've lived under by a long, long way. The country was in a much better position when she left office than when she started, which is a tribute in its own right. Unfortunately, her greatest legacy of sound Government finances and a booming economy have all been reversed and more, by subsequent self-serving prime ministers, governments and the EU.
RIP Maggie. :'(
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
To commerate his his death in 1965 every school child was given a Churchill Crown :y
I was at school in 1965, I wasn't given one. :'(
Perhaps it was up to the local council ???
I've got 3 spare, first three pm's with an address gets one :y
2 left :y
Now 1 left :y :y
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Best PM in my lifetime, more balls than the idiots we have now,RIP Maggie.
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And she sorted the Argies-----sadly at a cost though
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The greatest Prime Minister we will ever have R.I.P Baroness Thatcher :(
Now Peggy Sue, hold on. Churchill?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course Winston if only for the 5 bob bit he gave me :y
please elucidate cleggy :y
she was one of the greats. proper set of balls. RIP
Remember this?
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/tidla1/index_zps81a0de6a.jpeg)
Her solution.
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/tidla1/article-2039678-0E0199FF00000578-2_306x526_zpsab539b94.jpg)
Poll tax was a mistake. £44 a week wages, £400 bill per year.
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I'm not reading all of the previous comments, way too many. My guess is that most will follow party political lines.
My view . . . . . . she was NOT "grey". Unlike today's party political leaders (Millipede, Camoron, Gleggy etc) who are really only interested in polls and popular opinion.
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Yep,regardless of your political leanings,she had strong principles and for he most part stuck to them through thick and thin rather than govern by focus groups and opinion polls.The last of the principled,passionate leaders. :y
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R I P Maggie, what a woman.... :y
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yes it didnt take long for the bolackless prats to undo all her hard work i wonder if we will get another like he ...proberbly not they havent got the balls or savey to do whats needed not like her she couldnt give a shit about the polls or papers we defenitly need somone like her now
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I always wanted her to have a full state funeral. But not if she died first.
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How very classy. :y ::)
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I'm watching the local news in Yorkshire. They need a beep machine. ;D
Apparently Liverpool town center is booming, right or wrong I wont judge but she certainly provoked strong feelings in this city!
She wasn't so popular up north. ::) ::) ;)
There was a party in George square Glasgow yesterday to celabrate she's dead.
Ding dong the witch is dead :-X
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Maggies only been in hell less than 24 hours and she's already shut 3 furnaces down ::)
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People having parties, celebrating a death, wishing it had happened years ago. That ira person saying how bad she was. And these people think they are normal decent people.
If it was there relative would they be acting and saying the same things ? would they like these things said about there relative ?
Interesting to hear Neil Kinnock comment on Thatcher/Scargill. He completely blamed scargill for playing straight into thatchers hands.
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Nice one Pete :y Dunno about you but there seems to be a lot of selective memory on this thread,people remembering the 'good' things she supposedly brought about,and forgetting the the shite.But then in all honesty I never cared for her arrogance nor do I care for the present bunch of nancy boys who think that they can bully the people of this country the same way. ::)
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Bearing in mind that the country was on its knees,bankrupt,with hyper inflation,an international laughing stock,run by the unions and the chancellor had to go to the IMF with a begging bowl - what would have happened if she had lost the 1979 election and Labour had won it ?
Thats the question those who hated her need to answer.
My guess is that in 1985 a famous pop star in Africa would have organised a huge pop concert to raise money to send us food. ;)
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As for those despicable specimens holding street parties and popping champagne etc because of her death !!
If they had a shred of the most basic human decency they would refrain from doing it due to the extra pain and hurt it will inflict on her family,if for no other reason. >:( >:( >:(
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No change there,then ::)
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As for those despicable specimens holding street parties and popping champagne etc because of her death !!
If they had a shred of the most basic human decency they would refrain from doing it due to the extra pain and hurt it will inflict on her family,if for no other reason. >:( >:( >:(
Agreed. :y :y :y
Margaret Thatcher was a conviction politician who was democratically elected three times. She was patriotic (something missing these days), she had class and commanded respect the world over. Today, with our spineless career politicians running the shop, the UK is a laughing stock.
People keep bring up the closure of the pits, but the miners were hoodwinked into the unrest by Scargill who, even to this day is, wandering around the country praising Lenin and Stalin. He basically gave the PM no avenue other than confrontation.
Those who openly celebrate her demise have no class...or even common decency. Scum, indeed >:( >:(
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Maggies only been in hell less than 24 hours and she's already shut 3 furnaces down ::)
Yes but the workers were always on strike & when they did return they made shoddy heat ::)
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As for those despicable specimens holding street parties and popping champagne etc because of her death !!
If they had a shred of the most basic human decency they would refrain from doing it due to the extra pain and hurt it will inflict on her family,if for no other reason. >:( >:( >:(
Absoute freakin' morons who probably have no idea about politics or the time before or during her Prime Ministership.
It just shows you what this country has become >:( >:( >:(
As for Derek Pratton and Ken Slimingston they ought to go freak one another with the rough end of a pineapple :o :y
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Is it mere coincidence, but was it not the same mentality of the union leaders; ie making unreasonable demands, forcing industries to slow down and inevitably be closed down, that has effectively created the current status quo of 'owt for nowt' or have I missed something :-\
Apologies if not quite the right thread. But if strong leadership was forced to make tough decisions then, (and stand by them), with the reality of the severity of descisions implemented yesterday only just starting to hit home, then perhaps history is repeating itself :-\
I can only hope that the powers that be have the same same strength of conviction that Baroness Thatcher had. It'll be a rough couple of years I think...
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i think its digusting that these morons are celebrating the death of margret thatcher some of them wernt evan born when she was in power i think i will hold a dance out side there house when one of there relatives dies weather you liked her or not its just disgusting >:( >:( >:(
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Any one would think she was the Sheriff of Nottingham or Prince John :-\ (were they the same person :-\)
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Nostalgia and rose-tinted specs makes fools of us all.....me included.
Thatcher was certainly not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.....she was as flawed as the rest of us.
As for people celebrating her demise, well, we live in a democracy......and she pissed a lot of people off.
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It does smack of the 'riots' and
lootingwanton mischeif making a while back. The dead do seem to make rather good scapegoats ::)
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Worthy of a proper read ... IMHO a very balanced article
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886
RIP Baroness Thatcher .. shame there are not more like you.
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Nostalgia and rose-tinted specs makes fools of us all.....me included.
Thatcher was certainly not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.....she was as flawed as the rest of us.
As for people celebrating her demise, well, we live in a democracy......and she pissed a lot of people off.
So if you don't get on with your neighbour and they pass away, is it ok for you to dance in the streets so to speak ?
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Nostalgia and rose-tinted specs makes fools of us all.....me included.
Thatcher was certainly not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.....she was as flawed as the rest of us.
As for people celebrating her demise, well, we live in a democracy......and she pissed a lot of people off.
So if you don't get on with your neighbour and they pass away, is it ok for you to dance in the streets so to speak ?
[/highlight]
Me, personally, no. But as I say, we live in a democracy.
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Nostalgia and rose-tinted specs makes fools of us all.....me included.
Thatcher was certainly not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.....she was as flawed as the rest of us.
As for people celebrating her demise, well, we live in a democracy......and she pissed a lot of people off.
So if you don't get on with your neighbour and they pass away, is it ok for you to dance in the streets so to speak ?
No, obviously...
But there does seem to be a total lack of respect emerging through life generally. Ask those people what they would think if we were dancing around their graves, they would either reply instantly with 'Don't give a break' or hesitate and say that they might object...
Put people on the spot about their poor behaviour and loosely speaking, they are either hypocrites or liars :-\
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I wonder what will happens when Arthur Scargill goes. Will I be criticised for having a celebratory street party ?
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I wonder what will happens when Arthur Scargill goes. Will I be criticised for having a celebratory street party ?
Not from me. ;)
He was as "out of touch" as Thatcher.
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So if you don't get on with your neighbour and they pass away, is it ok for you to dance in the streets so to speak ?
yes those VE day celebrations were well out of order
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we have a tradition.. we never speak bad after someone who is dead..
and I dont wont to disturb the people who loves her.. but whoever declares war to miners will never have my respect..
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Cem, her fight was not with the miners themselves, rather the Stalinist union leaders who misrepresented and exploited them :'(
Had the miners, (and other heavily unionised industries), not followed Scargill et al so blindly, we might still have a country to be proud of.
The unions ultimately put those men out of work. It is criminal that they were never made to account for it, and I suspect alot of those men took the shame of that fact to their graves :'(
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
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and one more point, there may be excuses such that country was loosing too much money for mines..
ok if she was a hero , why she didnt nationalise Bank of England.. the losses in mines were just a breakfast cost compared to govt borrowing its own money :(
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Wow, that has to be the most biased and inaccurate account of the reality that I have ever seen. If you need to use biased references instead of your own experience, perhaps this is a debate to avoid!
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The unions had been using its membership to hold the Great Britian PLC to ransom since the early seventies, always demanding more.
Had they been a bit more reasonable with their demands, them firms would undoubtedly have been more profitable, with fewer cuts, continuing a strong industry based economy which had built an empire.
The unions forced successive governments to make costly decisions which benefited no-one but the union elite. Regardless of how she did it, Maggie stopped that.
Just a shame that the media whores who followed didn't step up and continue the legacy.
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what suprises me is that , the politicians and media tells a story and then some group of workers becomes enemy for other workers.. :-\ whats wrong with unions ? of course they will demand best for their wrokers/members.. problem is the other workers who dont have a proper union which will defend their rights.. thats what the boss want.. divide and conquer you ::)
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Wow, that has to be the most biased and inaccurate account of the reality that I have ever seen. If you need to use biased references instead of your own experience, perhaps this is a debate to avoid!
"own experience" ??? I dont live in UK ;D but same theatral game is on play here for long years, if you count that :-\
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
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Keep listening to your union rep Cem ::)
The unions only interest in its members is the subscriptions. The higher your wages get, the more they can take from you. Turn off google and wikiblocks and think for yourself :y
The last productive stike was probably (according to the film 'Dagenham', anyway), when the female workers at Fords Dagenham plant walked out demanding equal pay. Eventually they got their way. But most strikes were over trivial nonsense, and in the case of nationalised industries, cost the country billions of pounds in lost production, helping to make the likes of British Leyland a laughing stock. By the time she came to power Maggie had little choice but to crush the unions and privatise everything, just to protect the British Economy. That those companies failed simply demonstrates how damaging the unions had been >:( :'(
As I said earlier, it is purely down to the left-wing fatcat approach to government that has created our current predicament, and not as you suggest, the policies of Margaret Thatcher and her government.
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Had they seen/known what the union was uptobeen allowed to and vote with their subscriptions, 80% would have still been in work, and their kids/grandkids would still have jobs.
That union that some died for, soon stopped paying for food and support when the subs ran out >:(
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Keep listening to your union rep Cem ::)
The unions only interest in its members is the subscriptions. The higher your wages get, the more they can take from you. Turn off google and wikiblocks and think for yourself :y
The last productive stike was probably (according to the film 'Dagenham', anyway), when the female workers at Fords Dagenham plant walked out demanding equal pay. Eventually they got their way. But most strikes were over trivial nonsense, and in the case of nationalised industries, cost the country billions of pounds in lost production, helping to make the likes of British Leyland a laughing stock. By the time she came to power Maggie had little choice but to crush the unions and privatise everything, just to protect the British Economy. That those companies failed simply demonstrates how damaging the unions had been >:( :'(
As I said earlier, it is purely down to the left-wing fatcat approach to government that has created our current predicament, and not as you suggest, the policies of Margaret Thatcher and her government.
if, any ordinary person, can be elected to be a prime minister, can see lots of variables that he/she can play with for closing the holes of the economy as I stated before.. but if that person serves a certain group (and her agenda) who holds a whole nation as slaves (sadly here is the same) , of course will march directly on those unions..
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As for those despicable specimens holding street parties and popping champagne etc because of her death !!
If they had a shred of the most basic human decency they would refrain from doing it due to the extra pain and hurt it will inflict on her family,if for no other reason. >:( >:( >:(
Absoute freakin' morons who probably have no idea about politics or the time before or during her Prime Ministership.
It just shows you what this country has become >:( >:( >:(
As for Derek Pratton and Ken Slimingston they ought to go freak one another with the rough end of a pineapple :o :y
Indeed, and a large proportion of those "celebrating" with pictures of her defaced with slogans on the streets I note were not even born when she came to power. Everything has already been said but for the fact we were classed as "The sick man of Europe" and we deserved it for the crap the country was in before Maggie.
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When Margaret Thatcher became PM the UK was in a similar state to now. She inherited a near bankrupt, Labour impoverished economy.
She did what she felt necessary to get the country back on its feet, and by-and-large she succeded. Call-me-Dave really needs to get his yaris in gear and follow in her footsteps with some pricipled and followed through decision making. History will judge right from wrong, as long as he actually does something.
It only took Bliar five years to undo her legacy, and a further seven to really make sure. I suspect it will take an awful lot longer to rectify the current status quo :-\
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Wow, that has to be the most biased and inaccurate account of the reality that I have ever seen. If you need to use biased references instead of your own experience, perhaps this is a debate to avoid!
Yes Cem I think you have got this one very wrong and you had to be a Britain living in the 1970s to fully understand the whole situation. Lifting someone else's statement on the internet just proves you do not understand this one Cem. ;) ;)
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
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I think you have to respect Thatcher for being a leader who had her principles, and the determination to stick to them, come riots, criticism, bad headlines and, eventually, of course, the contrary opinion of the majority of her own party, which is what did for her. She certainly cared more for what she considered right for the country, than her own popularity. The opposite is true of most politicians now.
Such a leader is going to make enemies. I remember not being overly impressed when, as a student, I received the kick in the nads that was the poll tax bill. Others were hit much harder, although in the case of the miners it was worshipping that idiot Scargill, and allowing him to make political pawns out of them, that was their undoing. I notice no party has since contemplated reversing the changes she made to kerb the power of the unions back then. ;D
But.. Look at the leaders we've had since, and find one example who hasn't blundered through office ducking and diving from one day's headlines to the next and tell me that a dose of her leadership qualities and backbone (not necessarily policies) aren't what we need to turn the current mess round. We have since had a string of spineless PR men, in the game only to feather their own beds.
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Cem is more right than wrong. Thatcher gleefully destroyed the unions, she didn't do it with a heavy heart.
Scargill made it easy for her by being out of touch with the wishes of his members, his actions made both himself and his union appear militant, when for the main part it was made up of decent hard working men and women. Thatcher ( with Scargill's help) destroyed their lives, so it's unsurprising that such hatred for her still exists.
As for the trade unions, since when did they become the anti-christ. The unions were formed to protect the rights of the working man, and stop him from being exploited. Is there a problem with that?
Of course, some right wing Conservatives despise the unions.......and the minimum wage, and if they had their way we'd (not them) work sixteen hours a day, seven days a week for a loaf of bread.......which incidentally is very tasty now Mrs Opti has her new breadmaker. :y ;D
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Cobblers. Tactical policing is controlled by Area Commissioners. She would not stipulate how the police should enforce the law on a day-to-day basis.
I suppose that does not fit into the Thatcher-hating meme though, does it? ::) ::)
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I wonder what will happens when Arthur Scargill goes. Will I be criticised for having a celebratory street party ?
ill dance on his grave with pleasure he cost this country more money and jobs than maggie ever did hes a total commie and an arsehole
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Wow, that has to be the most biased and inaccurate account of the reality that I have ever seen. If you need to use biased references instead of your own experience, perhaps this is a debate to avoid!
Yes Cem I think you have got this one very wrong and you had to be a Britain living in the 1970s to fully understand the whole situation. Lifting someone else's statement on the internet just proves you do not understand this one Cem. ;) ;)
obvious things dont need further explanation or 1st hand experience Lizzie.. I have lots of ex-politicans here which behaves similiar to yours.. and if you want I can send you free ;D
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"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government.
Harold Wilson (LABOUR - SOCIALIST) closed 4 times as many mines as Margaret Thatcher - Thatcher closed 22 pits Wilson closed 93.
The announcement that led to the miners strike was the proposed closure of 20 mines out of the remaining 174 owned by the state and the loss of 20,000 jobs out of 187,000. Under a previous Labour Government there were 576 coal mines when they took office, and just 300 by the time they left in 1970. They closed 276 mines and 170,000 jobs were lost. ::) ::)
Methinks you need to be careful where you get your stories, Cem. ;)
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"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government.
Harold Wilson (LABOUR - SOCIALIST) closed 4 times as many mines as Margaret Thatcher - Thatcher closed 22 pits Wilson closed 93.
The announcement that led to the miners strike was the proposed closure of 20 mines out of the remaining 174 owned by the state and the loss of 20,000 jobs out of 187,000. Under a previous Labour Government there were 576 coal mines when they took office, and just 300 by the time they left in 1970. They closed 276 mines and 170,000 jobs were lost. ::) ::)
Methinks you need to be careful where you get your stories, Cem. ;)
I think you need to be careful who you call SOCIALIST.. anyone who is against workers rights , anyone who is defending the masters rights is never ever a socialist.. oh I forgot , we have different definitions about who is leftwing..oops ;D
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"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government.
Harold Wilson (LABOUR - SOCIALIST) closed 4 times as many mines as Margaret Thatcher - Thatcher closed 22 pits Wilson closed 93.
The announcement that led to the miners strike was the proposed closure of 20 mines out of the remaining 174 owned by the state and the loss of 20,000 jobs out of 187,000. Under a previous Labour Government there were 576 coal mines when they took office, and just 300 by the time they left in 1970. They closed 276 mines and 170,000 jobs were lost. ::) ::)
Methinks you need to be careful where you get your stories, Cem. ;)
To begin with. The thin end of the wedge methinks.
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"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government.
Harold Wilson (LABOUR - SOCIALIST) closed 4 times as many mines as Margaret Thatcher - Thatcher closed 22 pits Wilson closed 93.
The announcement that led to the miners strike was the proposed closure of 20 mines out of the remaining 174 owned by the state and the loss of 20,000 jobs out of 187,000. Under a previous Labour Government there were 576 coal mines when they took office, and just 300 by the time they left in 1970. They closed 276 mines and 170,000 jobs were lost. ::) ::)
Methinks you need to be careful where you get your stories, Cem. ;)
I think you need to be careful who you call SOCIALIST.. anyone who is against workers rights , anyone who is defending the masters rights is never ever a socialist.. oh I forgot , we have different definitions about who is leftwing..oops ;D
and must add, as I said million times , really I'm not sure your labour party is leftwing or not :-\
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I have very little time for unions. Yes they have their place, but my experience of the TGWU/Unite(google oxymoron) wasn't good.
Used to work for a firm that through union bullying went bust. I joined said union in order to have my say during a pay blackmailing sessiondispute. They took my subscriptions gratefully enough, but when it came to the ballot, my and several of my colleagues who saw that the company could illafford either the demanded payrise or the proposed strike voted against both. These votes were struck from record and ignored.
Before things went much further, the shop steward was found somewhere he shouldn't have been, with someone he shouldn't have been, wearing less than they might have been whilst on company time. He got the sack. Myself and the other 'No' voters all got a whole load of crap for voting against the proposals in what was a 'secret' ballot, and I eventually left. Company folded nine months later. That was six years ago, and many are still out of work. Being in the union helped no-one then, and it helps them even less now. Some firm pretend to work with the unions, but whilst they give the unions the time of day, the companies tell them what they are doing rather than ask permission.
Why any one would pay someone a percentage of their hard earned cash to be treated like a mindless mushroom beats me. I naively made that mistake once, never again >:(
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What gets me is that no one really understands that when some one in the media says 'Due to the recent events Mr/Mrs X is going to have to do this....' really means 'We media people that that Mr/Mrs X need to do this to stop the negative things we are saying about them.' It takes balls to carry on and do what is right in the face of such pressure.
It stinks and it is something I cannot stand. You have to give Maggie her credit that she stuck to her principles (most of the time) and did not waver and cause more damage to the course of action she was on. She may not have got everything right but she did what was needed to keep the UK a place where companies would invest. If she had not done what she did then we may be in a similar situation to any one of the PIGS right now and that fact is difficult to dispute.
And anyone who is celebrating her death really needs to look at themselves in the mirror. I wonder if they celebrated the same when any mass-murderer died or was killed? Some of the scenes I am seeing in the media make me ashamed to be British.
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I think you have to respect Thatcher for being a leader who had her principles, and the determination to stick to them, come riots, criticism, bad headlines and, eventually, of course, the contrary opinion of the majority of her own party, which is what did for her. She certainly cared more for what she considered right for the country, than her own popularity. The opposite is true of most politicians now.
Such a leader is going to make enemies. I remember not being overly impressed when, as a student, I received the kick in the nads that was the poll tax bill. Others were hit much harder, although in the case of the miners it was worshipping that idiot Scargill, and allowing him to make political pawns out of them, that was their undoing. I notice no party has since contemplated reversing the changes she made to kerb the power of the unions back then. ;D
But.. Look at the leaders we've had since, and find one example who hasn't blundered through office ducking and diving from one day's headlines to the next and tell me that a dose of her leadership qualities and backbone (not necessarily policies) aren't what we need to turn the current mess round. We have since had a string of spineless PR men, in the game only to feather their own beds.
Kevin, if your system couldnt bring a leader who had more balls than her, first you must question how the system works.. besides dont expect me to believe there arent any clever leader candidates who wont be able to do anything.. but simply they are never elected nor will be.. for obvious reasons..
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I think you have to respect Thatcher for being a leader who had her principles, and the determination to stick to them, come riots, criticism, bad headlines and, eventually, of course, the contrary opinion of the majority of her own party, which is what did for her. She certainly cared more for what she considered right for the country, than her own popularity. The opposite is true of most politicians now.
Such a leader is going to make enemies. I remember not being overly impressed when, as a student, I received the kick in the nads that was the poll tax bill. Others were hit much harder, although in the case of the miners it was worshipping that idiot Scargill, and allowing him to make political pawns out of them, that was their undoing. I notice no party has since contemplated reversing the changes she made to kerb the power of the unions back then. ;D
But.. Look at the leaders we've had since, and find one example who hasn't blundered through office ducking and diving from one day's headlines to the next and tell me that a dose of her leadership qualities and backbone (not necessarily policies) aren't what we need to turn the current mess round. We have since had a string of spineless PR men, in the game only to feather their own beds.
Kevin, if your system couldnt bring a leader who had more balls than her, first you must question how the system works.. besides dont expect me to believe there arent any clever leader candidates who wont be able to do anything.. but simply they are never elected nor will be.. for obvious reasons..
Great leaders come every so often, usually at times of crisis in Great Britain. Mediocre ones can be found anywhere, but do not change history like Churchill or Maggie did.
Like in the legend of King Arthur, with Britain now going through a difficult time, someone will rise up and save the country. But perhaps the crisis is not quite bad enough yet and it must be threatened as in the legend!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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I think you have to respect Thatcher for being a leader who had her principles, and the determination to stick to them, come riots, criticism, bad headlines and, eventually, of course, the contrary opinion of the majority of her own party, which is what did for her. She certainly cared more for what she considered right for the country, than her own popularity. The opposite is true of most politicians now.
Such a leader is going to make enemies. I remember not being overly impressed when, as a student, I received the kick in the nads that was the poll tax bill. Others were hit much harder, although in the case of the miners it was worshipping that idiot Scargill, and allowing him to make political pawns out of them, that was their undoing. I notice no party has since contemplated reversing the changes she made to kerb the power of the unions back then. ;D
But.. Look at the leaders we've had since, and find one example who hasn't blundered through office ducking and diving from one day's headlines to the next and tell me that a dose of her leadership qualities and backbone (not necessarily policies) aren't what we need to turn the current mess round. We have since had a string of spineless PR men, in the game only to feather their own beds.
Kevin, if your system couldnt bring a leader who had more balls than her, first you must question how the system works.. besides dont expect me to believe there arent any clever leader candidates who wont be able to do anything.. but simply they are never elected nor will be.. for obvious reasons..
Great leaders come every so often, usually at times of crisis in Great Britain. Mediocre ones can be found anywhere, but do not change history like Churchill or Maggie did.
Like in the legend of King Arthur, with Britain now going through a difficult time, someone will rise up and save the country. But perhaps the crisis is not quite bad enough yet and it must be threatened as in the legend!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Lizzie ::) dont compare Churchill with Maggie.. please.. :(
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We have got one, cem, waiting in the wings, complete with balls, but the system and the gullible won't see him as leader.
Obviously I refer to Mr Farage :y
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We have got one, cem, waiting in the wings, complete with balls, but the system and the gullible won't see him as leader.
Obviously I refer to Mr Farage :y
ı'm afraid he will never be permitted.. :-\
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We have got one, cem, waiting in the wings, complete with balls, but the system and the gullible won't see him as leader.
Obviously I refer to Mr Farage :y
yup .. takes a huge amount of balls to take your MEP salary of £83,000 a year plus extortionate expenses, rather than stand as an MP and face election in the country you supposedly wish to lead.
A hypocrite .. no more and no less
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I think you have to respect Thatcher for being a leader who had her principles, and the determination to stick to them, come riots, criticism, bad headlines and, eventually, of course, the contrary opinion of the majority of her own party, which is what did for her. She certainly cared more for what she considered right for the country, than her own popularity. The opposite is true of most politicians now.
Such a leader is going to make enemies. I remember not being overly impressed when, as a student, I received the kick in the nads that was the poll tax bill. Others were hit much harder, although in the case of the miners it was worshipping that idiot Scargill, and allowing him to make political pawns out of them, that was their undoing. I notice no party has since contemplated reversing the changes she made to kerb the power of the unions back then. ;D
But.. Look at the leaders we've had since, and find one example who hasn't blundered through office ducking and diving from one day's headlines to the next and tell me that a dose of her leadership qualities and backbone (not necessarily policies) aren't what we need to turn the current mess round. We have since had a string of spineless PR men, in the game only to feather their own beds.
Kevin, if your system couldnt bring a leader who had more balls than her, first you must question how the system works.. besides dont expect me to believe there arent any clever leader candidates who wont be able to do anything.. but simply they are never elected nor will be.. for obvious reasons..
Great leaders come every so often, usually at times of crisis in Great Britain. Mediocre ones can be found anywhere, but do not change history like Churchill or Maggie did.
Like in the legend of King Arthur, with Britain now going through a difficult time, someone will rise up and save the country. But perhaps the crisis is not quite bad enough yet and it must be threatened as in the legend!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Lizzie ::) dont compare Churchill with Maggie.. please.. :(
Why not Cem? They both led the country, maybe under very different conditions, but with iron leadership, resolve and utter commitment to a new beginning. They were true British stalwarts who influenced our history like no other, and in a way that cannot be compared. :y :y :y
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Cem I think that's remarkably accurate. Sometmes you have to step outside a country to be objective, eg my view from living through it all is that she was worse that that. How anyone who lived through it can think the economy was in a mess and she sorted it out needs treatment, actually it was the opposite, negligable unemployment until she got in. Ask almost any respected economist (but not the loony ones she used).
As for Scargill he was massively supported by his union's members, unlike his predecessor who was an MI5 informant http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm)
"Former NUM chief was police informer".
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Cem I think that's remarkably accurate. Sometmes you have to step outside a country to be objective, eg my view from living through it all is that she was worse that that. How anyone who lived through it can think the economy was in a mess and she sorted it out needs treatment, actually it was the opposite, negligable unemployment until she got in. Ask almost any respected economist (but not the loony ones she used).
As for Scargill he was massively supported by his union's members, unlike his predecessor who was an MI5 informant http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm)
"Former NUM chief was police informer".
:y
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We have got one, cem, waiting in the wings, complete with balls, but the system and the gullible won't see him as leader.
Obviously I refer to Mr Farage :y
yup .. takes a huge amount of balls to take your MEP salary of £83,000 a year plus extortionate expenses, rather than stand as an MP and face election in the country you supposedly wish to lead.
A hypocrite .. no more and no less
He did stand for election. In 2010 he campaigned for the Buckingham seat of the Speaker, John Bercow.
Still never let facts get in the way of a good slur. ;)
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How anyone who lived through it can think the economy was in a mess and she sorted it out needs treatment, actually it was the opposite, negligable unemployment until she got in.
I did and I don't. ::)
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But most strikes were over trivial nonsense, and in the case of nationalised industries, cost the country billions of pounds in lost production, helping to make the likes of British Leyland a laughing stock. By the time she came to power Maggie had little choice but to crush the unions and privatise everything, just to protect the British Economy. That those companies failed simply demonstrates how damaging the unions had been >:( :'(
Mrs TB is an Oxfordian, thus comes from a family where generations worked at Morris and BL (and subsequently AR, Rover and MINI).
The shop steward would send them all out on strike, almost monthly, for things like the company had bought a cheaper brand of tea bag. Ridiculous state of affairs. Poisonous. Rover nearly got over it when they partnered with Honda, but the BMW buyout obviously put paid to that.
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I think this basically explains the picture (although there are a lot more than that)
"The Miner's Strike of 1984 / '85 was caused by the massive pit closure programme introduced by Margaret Thatcher and her Tory government. They wanted to replace Britain's use of coal-fired power stations and industries with power derived from gas or nuclear sources. Also, Thatcher knew that the mining communities and the NUM were a very large left wing power-block who opposed her, and felt that if she could decimate them as an effective force, she would succesfully remove a potential threat to her continued leadership of the country. Thatcher brought in a Canadian buisnessman, Ian MacGregor, as her so-called 'economic advisor'. He was not a British citizen, had no understanding whatsoever of British economic history, and was certainly not impartial. Nonetheless, he oversaw a shoddy and biased 'survey' of the future economic viability of British mining, which predictably painted a bleak picture of it's ability to survive- one which was very far from the actual truth. This gave Thatcher the excuse that she needed to announce the programme of pit closures early in 1984. The sheer injustice of the situation prompted a furious response from the mining communities, and resulted in the NUM leader, Arthur Scargill, calling a nationwide miner's strike before the union membership had been balloted for strike action. This enabled the strike's critics to label it as technically illegal, although if a ballot HAD been run, the overwhelming vote would have been to strike anyway. There was particular hatred for Ian MacGregor, who had no buisness in being invited to a foreign country and serving as advisor to the Prime Minister when he wasn't even an elected British politician, and not accountable to the electorate."
Cem I think that's remarkably accurate. Sometmes you have to step outside a country to be objective, eg my view from living through it all is that she was worse that that. How anyone who lived through it can think the economy was in a mess and she sorted it out needs treatment, actually it was the opposite, negligable unemployment until she got in. Ask almost any respected economist (but not the loony ones she used).
As for Scargill he was massively supported by his union's members, unlike his predecessor who was an MI5 informant http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351547.stm)
"Former NUM chief was police informer".
Both of you are crossing a Bulldog with a Shitzu, and are full of it. :( :(
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
I happen to sit next to an ex-copper who was dragged up to the East Mids to police the demonstrations. He will happily tell you that the "average" miner was no problem - to the point that the plods, who were given a packed lunch, would give there lunch to the miners so at least they could take some food home to there families. Obviously, this wasn't sensational enough for the TV cameras, so we only saw the mounted charges. He said these were so rare, and certainly wasn't normality.... ....although some of the police were thugs in his eyes.
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How anyone who lived through it can think the economy was in a mess and she sorted it out needs treatment
1979, a country cripple financially. 1990, and country with many years of fast growing economy. Hmmmm
neglible unemployment until she got in.
But unstainable employment. Not dissimilar to how we ended up after the disastrous 1997-2010 government.
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And if that tory government hadn't privatised Post Office Telephones, do you think you would have broadband now?
I recall in the late 70s, we were quoted "over 2 years" to get a phone line, although Dad's job got it in much quicker. And when it went wrong, it was weeks to get it repaired.
Can you imagine such an inefficient organisation managing it now?
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RIP Baroness Thatcher one of kind, could do with someone like you now. You may have been a woman but you had bigger balls than the weasels running the country today.
. Second the above motion to the house.
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Interesting statistics that lie behind the miners' strike:
1969 was the last year when coal accounted for more than half of Britain’s energy consumption. By 1970, when the Conservatives were elected, there were just 300 pits left – a fall of two thirds in 25 years.
By 1974 coal accounted for less than one third of energy consumption in Britain. Wilson’s incoming Labour government published a new Plan for Coal which predicted an increase in production from 110 million tonnes to 135 million tonnes a year by 1985. This was never achieved.
Margaret Thatcher’s government inherited a coal industry which had seen productivity collapse by 6 percent in five years. Nevertheless, it made attempts to rescue it. In 1981 a subsidy of £50 million was given to industries which switched from cheap oil to expensive British coal. So decrepit had the industry become that taxpayers were paying people to buy British coal.
The Thatcher government injected a further £200 million into the industry. Companies who had gone abroad to buy coal, such as the Central Electricity Generating Board, were banned from bringing it in and 3 million tonnes of coal piled up at Rotterdam at a cost to the British taxpayer of £30 million per year.
By now the industry was losing £1.2 million per day. Its interest payments amounted to £467 million for the year and the National Coal Board needed a grant of £875 million from the taxpayer.
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission found that 75 percent of British pits were losing money. The reason was obvious. By 1984 it cost £44 to mine a metric ton of British coal. America, Australia, and South Africa were selling it on the world market for £32 a metric ton.
Productivity increases had come in at 20 percent below the level set in the 1974 Plan for Coal.
Taxpayers were subsidising the mining industry to the tune of £1.3 billion annually. This figure doesn’t include the vast cost to taxpayer-funded industries such as steel and electricity which were obliged to buy British coal....
...She did not swoop in and kill perfectly good industries out of spite. Industries like coal and steel were already dead by the time she was elected. Thatcher just switched off the increasingly costly life support which had kept these zombie industries going.
John Phelan, 7 August 2012
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters)
:y
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
No she didn't personally order the gates to be opened but she damn well played her part in the government/police cover up that led to completely innocent men, women and children taking the blame for what happened that day.
Not a few working men and women either , 96 people lost their lives and their names were tarnished for 20 + years because of that rotten, spineless Tory regime. People may have danced and made merry in Liverpool last night, I didn't, but for her part in the cover up I can understand why some did.
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
No she didn't personally order the gates to be opened but she damn well played her part in the government/police cover up that led to completely innocent men, women and children taking the blame for what happened that day.
Not a few working men and women either , 96 people lost their lives and their names were tarnished for 20 + years because of that rotten, spineless Tory regime. People may have danced and made merry in Liverpool last night, I didn't, but for her part in the cover up I can understand why some did.
Got a link for that number? ??? ???
The best I can find is this:
Six picketers died during the strike, and three teenagers (Darren Holmes aged 15 and Paul Holmes and Paul Womersley aged 14) died picking coal from a colliery waste heap in the winter. The deaths of pickets David Jones and Joe Green continue to be viewed with suspicion. Jones was killed in Ollerton, Nottinghamshire, by a flying brick during fighting between police, pickets, and non-striking miners, while Green was hit by a truck while picketing at Ferrybridge power station in Yorkshire. The NUM names its memorial lectures after the two. A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
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' @ dbdbdb - if Scargill had the support of the vast majority of his members why did he order them out on strike for more than a year and refuse point blank to allow them to have a ballot before or during the strike.
He has spent much of the last few years dragging the NUM to the brink of bankruptcy in the high court,due to his demand to be allowed sole personal use for life of an apartment at the Barbican in London which he bought with union funds when he was the president.They want to sell it and use the funds to keep the union afloat but he is fighting them tooth and nail.
Yeah,hes a real working class hero - NOT. ::)
Hes a classic lefty mix of a very large ago and a very small brain,and selective principles. A hateful character.
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Cough. Nickbat, I think Omegod was referring to Hillsborough rather than the Miners :y
Rest them all :'(
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
No she didn't personally order the gates to be opened but she damn well played her part in the government/police cover up that led to completely innocent men, women and children taking the blame for what happened that day.
Not a few working men and women either , 96 people lost their lives and their names were tarnished for 20 + years because of that rotten, spineless Tory regime. People may have danced and made merry in Liverpool last night, I didn't, but for her part in the cover up I can understand why some did.
Got a link for that number? ??? ???
The best I can find is this:
Six picketers died during the strike, and three teenagers (Darren Holmes aged 15 and Paul Holmes and Paul Womersley aged 14) died picking coal from a colliery waste heap in the winter. The deaths of pickets David Jones and Joe Green continue to be viewed with suspicion. Jones was killed in Ollerton, Nottinghamshire, by a flying brick during fighting between police, pickets, and non-striking miners, while Green was hit by a truck while picketing at Ferrybridge power station in Yorkshire. The NUM names its memorial lectures after the two. A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
WTF has the miners strike got to do with Hillsborough?
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
No she didn't personally order the gates to be opened but she damn well played her part in the government/police cover up that led to completely innocent men, women and children taking the blame for what happened that day.
Not a few working men and women either , 96 people lost their lives and their names were tarnished for 20 + years because of that rotten, spineless Tory regime. People may have danced and made merry in Liverpool last night, I didn't, but for her part in the cover up I can understand why some did.
Got a link for that number? ??? ???
The best I can find is this:
Six picketers died during the strike, and three teenagers (Darren Holmes aged 15 and Paul Holmes and Paul Womersley aged 14) died picking coal from a colliery waste heap in the winter. The deaths of pickets David Jones and Joe Green continue to be viewed with suspicion. Jones was killed in Ollerton, Nottinghamshire, by a flying brick during fighting between police, pickets, and non-striking miners, while Green was hit by a truck while picketing at Ferrybridge power station in Yorkshire. The NUM names its memorial lectures after the two. A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
WTF has the miners strike got to do with Hillsborough?
Delicate point well raised ::)
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Thank you Al. ;D
People are so keen to get their tuppence worth in........well....you know.
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I got the wrong end of the stick there, I thought the number quoted was about miners' strike casualties.
My bad. Must go to SpecSavers. ;)
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She did also order police on horseback to beat the living shite out of ordinary working men( miners) with truncheons who were striking to try and ensure their jobs
Really? You have any proof of that?
I suppose you also think she ordered the police to open up the gates of Hillsborough so that a few working men (and women) could be crushed to death.
No she didn't personally order the gates to be opened but she damn well played her part in the government/police cover up that led to completely innocent men, women and children taking the blame for what happened that day.
Not a few working men and women either , 96 people lost their lives and their names were tarnished for 20 + years because of that rotten, spineless Tory regime. People may have danced and made merry in Liverpool last night, I didn't, but for her part in the cover up I can understand why some did.
Got a link for that number? ??? ???
The best I can find is this:
Six picketers died during the strike, and three teenagers (Darren Holmes aged 15 and Paul Holmes and Paul Womersley aged 14) died picking coal from a colliery waste heap in the winter. The deaths of pickets David Jones and Joe Green continue to be viewed with suspicion. Jones was killed in Ollerton, Nottinghamshire, by a flying brick during fighting between police, pickets, and non-striking miners, while Green was hit by a truck while picketing at Ferrybridge power station in Yorkshire. The NUM names its memorial lectures after the two. A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
WTF has the miners strike got to do with Hillsborough?
Exactly >:(
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WTF is in the water tonight >:(
Keep it pleasant. Debates are welcomed, arguments are not.
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WTF is in the water tonight >:(
Keep it pleasant. Debates are welcomed, arguments are not.
Oi, you, don't be taking it out on us. Its not our fault. We don't even know what a steering rack is. :P
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WTF is in the water tonight >:(
Keep it pleasant. Debates are welcomed, arguments are not.
Oi, you, don't be taking it out on us. Its not our fault. We don't even know what a steering rack is. :P
You ain't gonna be able to walk once I ram said rack up yer jacksie :P
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WTF is in the water tonight >:(
Keep it pleasant. Debates are welcomed, arguments are not.
Oi, you, don't be taking it out on us. Its not our fault. We don't even know what a steering rack is. :P
You ain't gonna be able to walk once I ram said rack up yer jacksie :P
OOOOOOOOOO. Who needs Christine. :-*
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Getting back to the bigger picture - for those who werent around at the time or who have selective memories,Simon Heffer wrote an excellent article in the Wail today describing 1070,s Britian,pre Thatcher.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306092/Margaret-Thatcher-dies-The-woman-saved-Britain--verdict-3-historians.html
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just make sure you give him the rack dry.no lubricant he can take it
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Getting back to the bigger picture - for those who werent around at the time or who have selective memories,Simon Heffer wrote an excellent article in the Wail today describing 1070,s Britian,pre Thatcher.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306092/Margaret-Thatcher-dies-The-woman-saved-Britain--verdict-3-historians.html
We're past caring, Albs.
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Getting back to the bigger picture - for those who werent around at the time or who have selective memories,Simon Heffer wrote an excellent article in the Wail today describing 1070,s Britian,pre Thatcher.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306092/Margaret-Thatcher-dies-The-woman-saved-Britain--verdict-3-historians.html
At last an interesting, informative article from the Daily Mail. I think I need a lie down :y
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Let's blame the late greatest post war Prime Minster for all the ills brought on this country like a plague of locust. For gods sake please do some reasearch, this country was brought to it's knees by a union led labour government, similar to the last lot >:( >:(
As for her being responsible in any way for the crime or cover up that was Hillsborough I suggest you really do need to look carefully at the libel laws before spouting such nonsense >:( >:( >:(
I respectfully suggest that some either get their facts correct or shut the freak up :y
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Her vision.
"A mans right to work as he will
To spend what he earns
To own property
To have the state as a servant,not a master.
These are the British inheritance,they are the essence of a free economy,and on that,all other freedoms depend."
10th October 1975.
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Interesting statistics that lie behind the miners' strike:
1969 was the last year when coal accounted for more than half of Britain’s energy consumption. By 1970, when the Conservatives were elected, there were just 300 pits left – a fall of two thirds in 25 years.
By 1974 coal accounted for less than one third of energy consumption in Britain. Wilson’s incoming Labour government published a new Plan for Coal which predicted an increase in production from 110 million tonnes to 135 million tonnes a year by 1985. This was never achieved.
Margaret Thatcher’s government inherited a coal industry which had seen productivity collapse by 6 percent in five years. Nevertheless, it made attempts to rescue it. In 1981 a subsidy of £50 million was given to industries which switched from cheap oil to expensive British coal. So decrepit had the industry become that taxpayers were paying people to buy British coal.
The Thatcher government injected a further £200 million into the industry. Companies who had gone abroad to buy coal, such as the Central Electricity Generating Board, were banned from bringing it in and 3 million tonnes of coal piled up at Rotterdam at a cost to the British taxpayer of £30 million per year.
By now the industry was losing £1.2 million per day. Its interest payments amounted to £467 million for the year and the National Coal Board needed a grant of £875 million from the taxpayer.
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission found that 75 percent of British pits were losing money. The reason was obvious. By 1984 it cost £44 to mine a metric ton of British coal. America, Australia, and South Africa were selling it on the world market for £32 a metric ton.
Productivity increases had come in at 20 percent below the level set in the 1974 Plan for Coal.
Taxpayers were subsidising the mining industry to the tune of £1.3 billion annually. This figure doesn’t include the vast cost to taxpayer-funded industries such as steel and electricity which were obliged to buy British coal....
...She did not swoop in and kill perfectly good industries out of spite. Industries like coal and steel were already dead by the time she was elected. Thatcher just switched off the increasingly costly life support which had kept these zombie industries going.
John Phelan, 7 August 2012
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters)
:y
good numbers Nickbat.. but why dont spend some of your time to find how much interest British tax payer pays every year to those British Govt Debt holders ;) and who they are ?
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Whilst we are talking about unions, there was an article in The Sunday Times this week entitled "Miners' union leaders hit rich £250,000 seam"
Three officials of the Derbyshire branch of the NUM received combined salaries of nearly £250,000, with the branch General Secretary earning £91,142. Derbyshire has no remaining coal mines and the branch has 4 members...... The three officials and one other!! :o
And we think politicians are self serving!!! ::)
I would have linked to the article but as The Times is pay per view..... :P
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Whilst we are talking about unions, there was an article in The Sunday Times this week entitled "Miners' union leaders hit rich £250,000 seam"
Three officials of the Derbyshire branch of the NUM received combined salaries of nearly £250,000, with the branch General Secretary earning £91,142. Derbyshire has no remaining coal mines and the branch has 4 members...... The three officials and one other!! :o
And we think politicians are self serving!!! ::)
I would have linked to the article but as The Times is pay per view..... :P
The Prosecution rests, your Honour :y
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and as for privatisation efficiency..
before national electric organization is privatised I was paying 1/3 of now..
before telecom organization is privatised I was paying nearly 1/5 of now including adsl( was slow I accept but now not far superior)..
before privatisation food prices (basic things like milk, meat, cheese), drinks was incomparably cheaper than now..
I can multiply the examples.. but more important than that , who puts that money in pocket.. not the nation, few sharks who works together with politicians >:(
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Whilst we are talking about unions, there was an article in The Sunday Times this week entitled "Miners' union leaders hit rich £250,000 seam"
Three officials of the Derbyshire branch of the NUM received combined salaries of nearly £250,000, with the branch General Secretary earning £91,142. Derbyshire has no remaining coal mines and the branch has 4 members...... The three officials and one other!! :o
And we think politicians are self serving!!! ::)
I would have linked to the article but as The Times is pay per view..... :P
no surprise .. capitalist system first eats into the moral values of community.. and the unions wont be an exception..
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Without union bs, our coal would have been cheaper, therefore our electricity would have been cheaper, and probably supplied by UK based companies rather than the French ::)
Cheaper power = cheaper goods :y
And as for unions being community minded, the NUM branches mentioned are probably funded from the interest paid on the subscription deposits from the tens of thousand miners sold out by the very people they claimed to represent.
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good numbers Nickbat.. but why dont spend some of your time to find how much interest British tax payer pays every year to those British Govt Debt holders ;) and who they are ?
I thought we were discussing Margaret Thatcher and the miners' strike of 1984. ??? ???
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and as for privatisation efficiency..
before national electric organization is privatised I was paying 1/3 of now..
before telecom organization is privatised I was paying nearly 1/5 of now including adsl( was slow I accept but now not far superior)..
before privatisation food prices (basic things like milk, meat, cheese), drinks was incomparably cheaper than now..
I can multiply the examples.. but more important than that , who puts that money in pocket.. not the nation, few sharks who works together with politicians >:(
Comparing Turkey and the UK simply doesn't work, Cem.
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good numbers Nickbat.. but why dont spend some of your time to find how much interest British tax payer pays every year to those British Govt Debt holders ;) and who they are ?
I thought we were discussing Margaret Thatcher and the miners' strike of 1984. ??? ???
if Margaret Thatcher is accused for some reason and defended for the subject of economy than that subject is very closely related.. and if you do some search on those subjects, you will see that those interests costs big numbers.. :) and I'm sure she was well aware of the situation as a pm..
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and as for privatisation efficiency..
before national electric organization is privatised I was paying 1/3 of now..
before telecom organization is privatised I was paying nearly 1/5 of now including adsl( was slow I accept but now not far superior)..
before privatisation food prices (basic things like milk, meat, cheese), drinks was incomparably cheaper than now..
I can multiply the examples.. but more important than that , who puts that money in pocket.. not the nation, few sharks who works together with politicians >:(
Comparing Turkey and the UK simply doesn't work, Cem.
where capitalist masters and their agenda are at work only magnitudes change Nick..
let me tell you how.. what happens if those masters accumulate their money at your banks and your market for some time.. simple things get easy, people get jobs, money flies here and there.. and govts are shown to be successful.. but what happens when they decide to leave one day.. ;)
these games are played everywhere including UK..
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and simply blaming Thatcher pre and post govts and pms dont explain UKs economic problem really..
I tried to explain the main reasons before on some other threads also on this thread but no one wants to talk about it.. :-\
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if Margaret Thatcher is accused for some reason and defended for the subject of economy than that subject is very closely related.. and if you do some search on those subjects, you will see that those interests costs big numbers.. :) and I'm sure she was well aware of the situation as a pm..
Lady Thatcher's government did a good job of driving down government debt, which was 43.6 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1979, and 26.7 per cent in 1990.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html)...1 hour ago! :y
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if Margaret Thatcher is accused for some reason and defended for the subject of economy than that subject is very closely related.. and if you do some search on those subjects, you will see that those interests costs big numbers.. :) and I'm sure she was well aware of the situation as a pm..
Lady Thatcher's government did a good job of driving down government debt, which was 43.6 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1979, and 26.7 per cent in 1990.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html)...1 hour ago! :y
if I say, you could clear all that Debt with a simple sign as a PM , what would you do ;D :y
but of course the next day you would be dead :(
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Lady Thatcher's government did a good job of driving down government debt, which was 43.6 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1979, and 26.7 per cent in 1990.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html)...1 hour ago! :y
That's a very selective statistic, here is the whole picture
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u546/dbdbx/Image1_zps89b87051.jpg)
Now look up unemployment figures under Thatcher's reign.
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I think those charts will tell too many
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts)
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Lady Thatcher's government did a good job of driving down government debt, which was 43.6 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1979, and 26.7 per cent in 1990.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-margaret-thatcher-really-save-britain-8566596.html)...1 hour ago! :y
That's a very selective statistic, here is the whole picture
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u546/dbdbx/Image1_zps89b87051.jpg)
Now look up unemployment figures under Thatcher's reign.
I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration. ??? Ergo, of course it is selective!
As for unemployment, yes it did hit a post-war high shortly after she took office, but declined thereafter as the UK got rid of the restrictive practices favoured by the Left. :y
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Then rising when she left ::)
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Well get some glasses and look at the hike in 2010...... ::) ::)
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Then rising when she left ::)
Indeed, Tunnie! :y
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Well get some glasses and look at the hike in 2010...... ::) ::)
Margaret Thatcher was PM in 2010??? Why wasn't I informed of this? ::) ::) ::)
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Well get some glasses and look at the hike in 2010...... ::) ::)
Margaret Thatcher was PM in 2010??? Why wasn't I informed of this? ::) ::) ::)
No, but current lot were....... ;) ;)
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I thought we were looking at government debt during the period of Thatcher's administration
that graph is gov debt covering her period (and a lot more).
Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990. All I can see is a fall in debt/GDP during that period! ::) ::)
Well get some glasses and look at the hike in 2010...... ::) ::)
Margaret Thatcher was PM in 2010??? Why wasn't I informed of this? ::) ::) ::)
No, but current lot were....... ;) ;)
Indeed, not a patch on MT! ;)
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Well get some glasses and look at the hike in 2010...... ::) ::)
Yes something odd happened in Sept 2009 you may have heard about it
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u546/dbdbx/Image2_zps941e05b5.jpg)
(http://timetric.com/index/public-finances-net-debt-psf/)
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That wouldn't have been when Bliar and Broon were found out by any remote chance ::)
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no was a couple of lemurs in New York. Brothers they were.
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Ah yes, them ::)
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Two points on unions, my Dad was a staunch trade unionist (God rest his soul), worked at the Longbridge plant, but even he despaired what was happening there with Red Robbo. (See the FatShadows post above).
In the 70's I worked for Birmid Qualcast Foundries, the largest foundry complex in Europe.
The largest company in the group, Midland Motor Cylinder, cast cylinder blocks for Ford and Vauxhall, never a week went by without a stike there.
Both Ford and Vauxhall both said, if there were any more strikes, they would have to take their work elsewhere.
So the Union called a strike in protest.
Guess what happened.
The Union 'leaders' in those days thought they were bigger than the company.
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Two points on unions, my Dad was a staunch trade unionist (God rest his soul), worked at the Longbridge plant, but even he despaired what was happening there with Red Robbo. (See the FatShadows post above).
In the 70's I worked for Birmid Qualcast Foundries, the largest foundry complex in Europe.
The largest company in the group, Midland Motor Cylinder, cast cylinder blocks for Ford and Vauxhall, never a week went by without a stike there.
Both Ford and Vauxhall both said, if there were any more strikes, they would have to take their work elsewhere.
So the Union called a strike in protest.
Guess what happened.
The Union 'leaders' in those days thought they were bigger than the company.
My father told me that there is not a single industry left that had a strong union interference. I cannot be sure as not that old but would be interesting to know if any are left still working.
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A little union story from my late dad.
Just before the war he was working as a plater at an engineering firm in Elland, he used to walk a mile to the bus stop and then catch the Huddersfield to Halifax bus which passed through Elland. He was selected as the engineers union rep for the firm and had to attend a union meeting one Saturday afternoon in Leeds.
Just before the meeting broke up the attendees were asked for their expense forms and my dad was asked to stay behind and they would explain later. So he stayed and was taken into the Queens Hotel for a dinner with drinks and cigars and asked why he was claiming so little. He explained that he had worked on Saturday morning took a change of clothes with him, and caught the bus to Huddersfield with a train into Leeds so this is what he claimed, the bus and train fare, the amount it had cost to attend the meeting.
He was told that was not good enough and he should have taken the morning off work claiming double time for loss of earnings including the time spent at the afternoon meeting, travelled first class, claiming for lunch and dinner in the evening. With a quip from one of the union bosses "Hey lad if you just claimed travel then we'd all have to and that wouldn't do would it."
Dad asked who paid the expense and was told "Well lad I suppose at the end of the day it's the membership from their subs, tha' dont thing they get representation for nowt"
Dad was fuming and resigned from the union stating that he was there to represent the workers not see union bosses lining pockets with their grubby little hands >:( >:(
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brought t tear to me eyes, respect to your dad Cleggy
http://youtu.be/TOWJECdobqk
it got nowt to do with maggie unless of course she ate t hovis like just thought i would try and throw some humour in...................ok i will leave the debate now
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A little union story from my late dad.
Just before the war he was working as a plater at an engineering firm in Elland, he used to walk a mile to the bus stop and then catch the Huddersfield to Halifax bus which passed through Elland. He was selected as the engineers union rep for the firm and had to attend a union meeting one Saturday afternoon in Leeds.
Just before the meeting broke up the attendees were asked for their expense forms and my dad was asked to stay behind and they would explain later. So he stayed and was taken into the Queens Hotel for a dinner with drinks and cigars and asked why he was claiming so little. He explained that he had worked on Saturday morning took a change of clothes with him, and caught the bus to Huddersfield with a train into Leeds so this is what he claimed, the bus and train fare, the amount it had cost to attend the meeting.
He was told that was not good enough and he should have taken the morning off work claiming double time for loss of earnings including the time spent at the afternoon meeting, travelled first class, claiming for lunch and dinner in the evening. With a quip from one of the union bosses "Hey lad if you just claimed travel then we'd all have to and that wouldn't do would it."
Dad asked who paid the expense and was told "Well lad I suppose at the end of the day it's the membership from their subs, tha' dont thing they get representation for nowt"
Dad was fuming and resigned from the union stating that he was there to represent the workers not see union bosses lining pockets with their grubby little hands >:( >:(
quite usual.. poor man who got some power will abuse it to an extent but not valid for all..
besides, is the boss very different ? most will suck your blood in every occasion.. I have worked in private sector for long years and they push me to work day and night without any rest for years >:( and I dont think British boss is so different..
unions either corrupt or not must exist.. you, workers, have no power as a single man.. they will step on you and burry to the mud easily.. zillions of examples throughout history..
if any pm deal with the corruption anywhere and try to correct it instead of destroying the organizations and workers, their funeral now would be followed by millions..
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Cem, it never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly you miss the point every single time :-\
Unions lost their real purpose in the sixties, if not before. Without them we would still be a viable nation, producing much of everything an a global scale. I would go as far as to say that had militant union behaviour been outlawed in 1970, we might well have never had to endure this current mess :'(
Regardless of whether you agreed with her policies or not, Margaret Thatcher earned respect from her peers and people in general by having strength of conviction, and probably did more for women in positions of responsibility than any union could ever dream of. History has judged her favourably, which is more than can be said of most politicians.
I'll say no more, as once again, you're starting to grate >:(
Rest in Peace Margaret :'(
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Cem, it never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly you miss the point every single time :-\
Unions lost their real purpose in the sixties, if not before. Without them we would still be a viable nation, producing much of everything an a global scale. I would go as far as to say that had militant union behaviour been outlawed in 1970, we might well have never had to endure this current mess :'(
Regardless of whether you agreed with her policies or not, Margaret Thatcher earned respect from her peers and people in general by having strength of conviction, and probably did more for women in positions of responsibility than any union could ever dream of. History has judged her favourably, which is more than can be said of most politicians.
I'll say no more, as once again, you're starting to grate >:(
Rest in Peace Margaret :'(
Well said :y
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Cem, it never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly you miss the point every single time :-\
Unions lost their real purpose in the sixties, if not before. Without them we would still be a viable nation, producing much of everything an a global scale. I would go as far as to say that had militant union behaviour been outlawed in 1970, we might well have never had to endure this current mess :'(
Regardless of whether you agreed with her policies or not, Margaret Thatcher earned respect from her peers and people in general by having strength of conviction, and probably did more for women in positions of responsibility than any union could ever dream of. History has judged her favourably, which is more than can be said of most politicians.
I'll say no more, as once again, you're starting to grate >:(
Rest in Peace Margaret :'(
Well said :y
yes have to agree very well sumed up simple enough for even me to un derstand and agree with it :y :y
lets hope she can rest in peace :y
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Cem, it never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly you miss the point every single time :-\
Unions lost their real purpose in the sixties, if not before. Without them we would still be a viable nation, producing much of everything an a global scale. I would go as far as to say that had militant union behaviour been outlawed in 1970, we might well have never had to endure this current mess :'(
Regardless of whether you agreed with her policies or not, Margaret Thatcher earned respect from her peers and people in general by having strength of conviction, and probably did more for women in positions of responsibility than any union could ever dream of. History has judged her favourably, which is more than can be said of most politicians.
I'll say no more, as once again, you're starting to grate >:(
Rest in Peace Margaret :'(
ok.. if you are searching for someone who destroyed your economy , just look for the subject of privatisation
"During the Thatcher years, more than 50 companies were sold or privatised – including the dozens from the power and water industries – raising more than £50bn for the Exchequer.
As Parker points out, though, “Britain’s privatisation experiment began cautiously”, with the first utility-style sell-off the privatisation of the 22-strong British Transport Docks Board. It was privatised as Associated British Ports in 1983, subsequently floated and eventually sold to a consortium led by Goldman Sachs in 2006. "
if you think selling all those , will have no negative consequences on your economy in the future , no need to comment anymore.. :-\
remember we had passed similiar privatisation phases here.. and unfortunately I have lived long enough to see the consequences..
and no need to talk about telecom..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/alistair-osborne/9980292/Margaret-Thatcher-one-policy-that-led-to-more-than-50-companies-being-sold-or-privatised.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/alistair-osborne/9980292/Margaret-Thatcher-one-policy-that-led-to-more-than-50-companies-being-sold-or-privatised.html)
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I appreciate I am guilty aswel but I have just visited one of my other forums which has a lot of members, mainly quite young about 17-30 would be average age.
It has 2 pages on this subject and there are people from both sides of the fence.
Up shot is people have stated there views and that is it. Does not appear to be any arguments between forum members or anything. Can post link if you would like to view it.
I wonder as I get older do we tend to moan more and criticize others more ?
Just my useless observations of course. :)
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While we are on the subject of showing respect to the first woman Prime Minister and the longest serving, winning three general elections so that shows more in favour for her party than the other alternative using our first past the post electoral system.
Some labour MP's will not be in the commons today and several other members of fringe parties will show contempt by not attending ( thank god that moronic idiot Galloway is staying well clear, and his party is called RESPECT, tosser)
The point I digress from is the fact that the FA are critised for not showing her respect by holding a minutes silence before the weekends fixtures as reported in some newspapers. I actually agree that to do so would be a big mistake and not only would it show a total lack of respect with those football supporters who would show the whole game up by booing through the whole minute and tarninsh the game even more. It might be right for Twickenham but not in the football playground :( :(
We saw the idiots dancing in the streets to the tune of the Socialist Workers Party, none who looked old enough to have been alive when she was in power or the problems she had to deal with. We don't need to give the retards another excused
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Cem, it never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly you miss the point every single time :-\
Unions lost their real purpose in the sixties, if not before. Without them we would still be a viable nation, producing much of everything an a global scale. I would go as far as to say that had militant union behaviour been outlawed in 1970, we might well have never had to endure this current mess :'(
Regardless of whether you agreed with her policies or not, Margaret Thatcher earned respect from her peers and people in general by having strength of conviction, and probably did more for women in positions of responsibility than any union could ever dream of. History has judged her favourably, which is more than can be said of most politicians.
I'll say no more, as once again, you're starting to grate >:(
Rest in Peace Margaret :'(
ok.. if you are searching for someone who destroyed your economy , just look for the subject of privatisation
"During the Thatcher years, more than 50 companies were sold or privatised – including the dozens from the power and water industries – raising more than £50bn for the Exchequer.
As Parker points out, though, “Britain’s privatisation experiment began cautiously”, with the first utility-style sell-off the privatisation of the 22-strong British Transport Docks Board. It was privatised as Associated British Ports in 1983, subsequently floated and eventually sold to a consortium led by Goldman Sachs in 2006. "
if you think selling all those , will have no negative consequences on your economy in the future , no need to comment anymore.. :-\
remember we had passed similiar privatisation phases here.. and unfortunately I have lived long enough to see the consequences..
and no need to talk about telecom..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/alistair-osborne/9980292/Margaret-Thatcher-one-policy-that-led-to-more-than-50-companies-being-sold-or-privatised.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/alistair-osborne/9980292/Margaret-Thatcher-one-policy-that-led-to-more-than-50-companies-being-sold-or-privatised.html)
I understand that Thatcher did a lot of good for this country and I also understand that a lot of these companies were in a bad way. It's a shame that this country that used to manufacture so much is now making virtually nothing but by selling them off we'll never know if they could have been turned around and all those skilled jobs and apprentiships that have dissapeared is so sad and I do blame the Thatcher Government for it
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
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Parliament is being specially convened to hear tributes to Maggie!
Waste of MP time. Every year there are important issues that cannot be debated- insufficient time.
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Parliament is being specially convened to hear tributes to Maggie!
Waste of MP time. Every year there are important issues that cannot be debated- insufficient time.
A few are refusing to attend. Mostly labour MP's, I think. ::)
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Interesting statistics that lie behind the miners' strike:
1969 was the last year when coal accounted for more than half of Britain’s energy consumption. By 1970, when the Conservatives were elected, there were just 300 pits left – a fall of two thirds in 25 years.
By 1974 coal accounted for less than one third of energy consumption in Britain. Wilson’s incoming Labour government published a new Plan for Coal which predicted an increase in production from 110 million tonnes to 135 million tonnes a year by 1985. This was never achieved.
Margaret Thatcher’s government inherited a coal industry which had seen productivity collapse by 6 percent in five years. Nevertheless, it made attempts to rescue it. In 1981 a subsidy of £50 million was given to industries which switched from cheap oil to expensive British coal. So decrepit had the industry become that taxpayers were paying people to buy British coal.
The Thatcher government injected a further £200 million into the industry. Companies who had gone abroad to buy coal, such as the Central Electricity Generating Board, were banned from bringing it in and 3 million tonnes of coal piled up at Rotterdam at a cost to the British taxpayer of £30 million per year.
By now the industry was losing £1.2 million per day. Its interest payments amounted to £467 million for the year and the National Coal Board needed a grant of £875 million from the taxpayer.
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission found that 75 percent of British pits were losing money. The reason was obvious. By 1984 it cost £44 to mine a metric ton of British coal. America, Australia, and South Africa were selling it on the world market for £32 a metric ton.
Productivity increases had come in at 20 percent below the level set in the 1974 Plan for Coal.
Taxpayers were subsidising the mining industry to the tune of £1.3 billion annually. This figure doesn’t include the vast cost to taxpayer-funded industries such as steel and electricity which were obliged to buy British coal....
...She did not swoop in and kill perfectly good industries out of spite. Industries like coal and steel were already dead by the time she was elected. Thatcher just switched off the increasingly costly life support which had kept these zombie industries going.
John Phelan, 7 August 2012
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters)
:y
That is the history I remember living through + Dockers refusing modernisation + BMC, a lame duck requiring constant infusion of government subsidy, unimaginative car development, and of course "brothers all out" the constant cry at Longbridge by Red Robbo, the Union convenor, who called over 500 strikes / disputes over just one year! That is the mess our Maggie had to sort out! ::) ::) ::) ::) :y :y
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Getting back to the bigger picture - for those who werent around at the time or who have selective memories,Simon Heffer wrote an excellent article in the Wail today describing 1070,s Britian,pre Thatcher.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306092/Margaret-Thatcher-dies-The-woman-saved-Britain--verdict-3-historians.html
Yep Albitz, again that is how it was for us who lived through it, and historians will remember the precipice the UK was about to go over when Maggie came to power. :y :y :y
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
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Parliament is being specially convened to hear tributes to Maggie!
Waste of MP time. Every year there are important issues that cannot be debated- insufficient time.
A few are refusing to attend. Mostly labour MP's, I think. ::)
Dennis Skinner at a guess.
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I believe she'd only been in hell for three hours and she closed two furnaces down. :-\
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
Maybe not Cem, but our government would through the Monopolies Commission that would stop that move in it's tracks. ;) ;) ;)
There must be competition in our capitalist democracy :y :y :y
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
Maybe not Cem, but our government would through the Monopolies Commission that would stop that move in it's tracks. ;) ;) ;)
There must be competition in our capitalist democracy :y :y :y
Lizzie, actually there is no capitalist system which includes democracy ;D
same ours.. you/we play the game of voting.. and some play the game of politicians but winners are always behind the scene whoever wins the game of voting :-\
and dont forget who assigns the persons in your monopoly comission..
and more than that your biggest monopoly is Bank of England which doesnt belong to the public ;)
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
Maybe not Cem, but our government would through the Monopolies Commission that would stop that move in it's tracks. ;) ;) ;)
There must be competition in our capitalist democracy :y :y :y
Lizzie, actually there is no capitalist system which includes democracy ;D
same ours.. you/we play the game of voting.. and some play the game of politicians but winners are always behind the scene whoever wins the game of voting :-\
and dont forget who assigns the persons in your monopoly comission..
and more than that your biggest monopoly is Bank of England which doesnt belong to the public ;)
In Britain actually there is. Not perfect, but a better system has yet to be found. ;) ;)
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Winston Churchill. House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
The Bank of England is under the best control of all.............the financial market. Away from direct political influence it is in a better state than it was before it was freed from clumsy, muddling, politicians! :y :y :y :y
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The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
Maybe not Cem, but our government would through the Monopolies Commission that would stop that move in it's tracks. ;) ;) ;)
There must be competition in our capitalist democracy :y :y :y
Lizzie, actually there is no capitalist system which includes democracy ;D
same ours.. you/we play the game of voting.. and some play the game of politicians but winners are always behind the scene whoever wins the game of voting :-\
and dont forget who assigns the persons in your monopoly comission..
and more than that your biggest monopoly is Bank of England which doesnt belong to the public ;)
In Britain actually there is. Not perfect, but a better system has yet to be found. ;) ;)
The Bank of England is under the best control of all.............the financial market. Away from direct political influence it is in a better state than it was before it was freed from clumsy, muddling, politicians! :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you are a historian .. just scan your memory , you will find better systems than the one currently ;)
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cem, its probably difficult to explain, as you have little/no experience of the civil service, and how it runs. I'm sure the Turkish ones are dire as well, but I doubt to anywhere near the level.
If you can find it on youtube, I suggest watching the 1980s comedy "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister" with Paull Eddington (not the new series from 2012). Sadly, not only is this worryingly close of how everything was bottom-up and inefficient, it shows how things never got changed. Its quite an amusing programme anyway, though when you realise how close it was....
I worked for the national telco here, British Telecom when I started, now BT. Its one of the privatised (under Thatcher) utilities. Its also one of the utilities, despite the best efforts of OFCOM, formerly OFTEL, where competition has been effective. Look how (real term) costs to customers have dropped, and the service has improved in unthinkable orders of magnitude.
The energy privatisations haven't worked. I rather useless regulator (civil servents) coupled with an unrealistic pricing method.
-
The trouble is Pete, that had they been able to operate effectively, then they would never have cost the taxpayers of the time so much money. In the end, selling them off to the highest bidder was the only way to stem those costs. Shutting the stable door behind the horse perhaps, but summat had to give :-\
think of an organisation that is a monopoly in its area.. some famous Thatcher copies here sell them for the reason that they cant make profit.. ;D how could this be.. ??? even kids wont believe this lie.. and so many other things..
is it the correct way to sell something so valuable to community instead of restructuring and re-organisation.. and then later pump the taxpayers more money to some lucky relative individuals.. for that privatisation subject, whoever says anything I'll be completely deaf.. :P
Really Cem, you had to be there. The nationalised industries were a standing joke, not just for the way they were so inefficiently run and bleeding money down the drain, but for the pathetic levels of service they provided. Nickbat already gave some examples of that, and somebody else has also pointed out how we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour). And there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Monopolies should make huge profits, but although it is hard for you to believe, the British nationalised industries didn't (or at least, I can't think of any that did - electricity, gas, coal, steel, railways, ship building, post, telecommunications, buses). They were funded by the taxpayer, which meant there was no incentive to operate efficiently as they had almost limitless access funds whenever they needed it.
The world, and especially Britain, was a very different place in the 1970's from what it is today. I would say that the world today is very different from what it would have been if Margaret Thatcher had not come along.
Jimac, thanks for your effort to explain.. just consider this scenario..
a rich arab with a long digit bank account comes one day.. pays the money and buys all of your already privatised assets for their double value.. none of the owners will object.. as profit is the primary goal.. and the next day quadruples all the prices from telecom to steel, oil to health, harbors to transportation, water to electricity etc etc.. and with all that power the second day he will declare himself to be the master.. 3rd day you will be foreigners in your country.. will you accept that ?
of course my example is a bit exaggerated but the truth actually not far from that unfortunately..
here there are lots of threads and posts that members mentioning that your country not same as before..
please stay and think about that.. :y
ps: my people were also lied in the same style , many things happened.. and after an earth quake in year 1999,
all communications and transportation stopped.. and everyone was asking for the state.. where are they..
sadly it was buried some time ago by the privatisation.. and the results were a disaster..
there was a massive need for loaders to open the roads.. here in my city there were thousands of them sleeping at a park because they were all private.. and none of the owners take responsibnility and tried to help..
people in those collapsed homes clean the rubbles with bare hand
so please no one tries to convince me with the same story.. :(
Maybe not Cem, but our government would through the Monopolies Commission that would stop that move in it's tracks. ;) ;) ;)
There must be competition in our capitalist democracy :y :y :y
Lizzie, actually there is no capitalist system which includes democracy ;D
same ours.. you/we play the game of voting.. and some play the game of politicians but winners are always behind the scene whoever wins the game of voting :-\
and dont forget who assigns the persons in your monopoly comission..
and more than that your biggest monopoly is Bank of England which doesnt belong to the public ;)
In Britain actually there is. Not perfect, but a better system has yet to be found. ;) ;)
The Bank of England is under the best control of all.............the financial market. Away from direct political influence it is in a better state than it was before it was freed from clumsy, muddling, politicians! :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you are a historian .. just scan your memory , you will find better systems than the one currently ;)
Nope, and the Great Man agreed (see my addition to the last post) and although made back in 1947, it in my view still holds good. Tell us Cem of a better one for the people and the country? ;) ;)
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cem, its probably difficult to explain, as you have little/no experience of the civil service, and how it runs. I'm sure the Turkish ones are dire as well, but I doubt to anywhere near the level.
If you can find it on youtube, I suggest watching the 1980s comedy "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister" with Paull Eddington (not the new series from 2012). Sadly, not only is this worryingly close of how everything was bottom-up and inefficient, it shows how things never got changed. Its quite an amusing programme anyway, though when you realise how close it was....
I worked for the national telco here, British Telecom when I started, now BT. Its one of the privatised (under Thatcher) utilities. Its also one of the utilities, despite the best efforts of OFCOM, formerly OFTEL, where competition has been effective. Look how (real term) costs to customers have dropped, and the service has improved in unthinkable orders of magnitude.
The energy privatisations haven't worked. I rather useless regulator (civil servents) coupled with an unrealistic pricing method.
I have watched it at the time :) although I hardly remember it.. iirc , it played on our govt TV channel. was quality :y
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...we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour).
Oh, I remember that from my childhood. (And some of their daughter's conversations which were accidentally interrupted) :-X ::)
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...we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour).
Oh, I remember that from my childhood. (And some of their daughter's conversations which were accidentally interrupted) :-X ::)
Indeed, the old party lines. And when you couldn't get a dial tone, go piss on the earth spike.... ....or by the time I was a telephone engineer, remind customers to water their lines....
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...we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour).
Oh, I remember that from my childhood. (And some of their daughter's conversations which were accidentally interrupted) :-X ::)
Indeed, the old party lines. And when you couldn't get a dial tone, go piss on the earth spike.... ....or by the time I was a telephone engineer, remind customers to water their lines....
Party line in America maybe. Over here it was shared service.
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I shared long posts from your economical history when debating with Entwood.. I'll post the thread link if I can find Lizzie..
ps:our posts were too long to quote
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....... there was no option but to deal with these monopolies. Just to stick with the phone example, it was illegal - yes, actually illegal - to connect a device to the telephone network that was not provided by the GPO, and those devices (telephones and answering machines) were rented to the user as it was impossible to buy any privately.
Yes, I can remember seeing telephones for sale for the first time in the likes of Dixons and Currys and it seemed really weird!! I think people didn't think they'd work because they didn't come from the GPO or British Telecom whichever it was called at the time!!! ;D
I agree with what Varche said earlier about reconvening parliament today. What a waste of money when they could have paid their respects on Monday! Wherever Thatcher is right now I bet she's steaming about that!!! ;)
I fully expect the funeral next week to be eventful..... ::)
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
OK Fair enough I didn't know that...... :-[ being a youngster and all.... ;)
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Nope, and the Great Man agreed (see my addition to the last post) and although made back in 1947, it in my view still holds good. Tell us Cem of a better one for the people and the country? ;) ;)
here is the related link Lizzie and there is a related youtube video :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15)
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
Still a waste of taxpayers money. So many bills to get through and so little time. Yes she was a great leader but remember her next Wednesday not by frittering away valuable Parliamentary time. The only timne to reconvene Parliament should be for the death of the Monarch or war.
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Nope, and the Great Man agreed (see my addition to the last post) and although made back in 1947, it in my view still holds good. Tell us Cem of a better one for the people and the country? ;) ;)
here is the related link Lizzie and there is a related youtube video :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15)
Thanks Cem, but I did read that first time round. ;) ;)
However, now let me give my own potted version of British history in a few words, rather than reams of cut and post from other authors:
History in Britain has been one of monarchy and church acquiring power and wealth, then people rising up to create a "new" world of science and financial investment, first involving the academics, philosophers, scientists and innovators, but then over 200 years the "common" workers being more and more involved, prepared to put the monarchy and church on a lower rung of their ladder. The Industrial Revolution gave new opportunities to those ready and seeking them, with a better wage paid to the workers employed to drive the machinery of the new age than they received by working the land. The workers then realised their worth, and strove to gain better working conditions, then better homes. Their aspirations grew and they reached out for a greater say in their lives from the elite, who eventually had to concede political power, bit by bit, to the growing power of influential groups and their demands. To avoid the threat of revolution, successive governments gave way to political reform, new working conditions, better housing, unions, free education for all, and a general recognition of workers rights. The British capitalist democratic system grew and grew, becoming one of great wealth, but still one of injustice.
Two World Wars discredited the elite, and proved the average person could be given true power. Voting rights for all were gained after the Labour Party was formed in 1918, and even women had those full rights from 1925. Labour took charge of the country in 1945 and gave us the Welfare system, the NHS, and modern education, apart from a true belief that the people had now gained real power. By 1960 the Conservative Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, was able to say the British "Had never had it so good" after the country was powering away from WW2, clearing it's debts, and most people were enjoying a new prosperity.
I will not repeat what others have stated about when Labour came to power from 1964 and started the trend to give the unions greater, almost exclusive, power, with their leaders demanding more and more for their members, which the industries concerned could not afford and creating a "strike culture", that damaged the development of many industries and their products. This led to uncompetitive products being produced by British industry, and the nationalised companies being run into the ground, demanding higher and higher government subsidies and unbelievably larger and larger wage demands. All was given by "frightened" and weak Labour government who feared the power of the unions with their block votes.
Something had to give, and in 1979 Maggie Thatcher came to power and started the great revival and fight to regain democratic power over the unions and a good sorting out of the sick nationalised companies, that would lead to the "sick man of Europe" slogan that was said about Briton before 1979, disappearing. The rest is history.
That is British capitalism and democracy at its best, working together to create a stronger, wealthier nation. It is what we need again Cem in Britain, that mix. Strong leadership, powering a capitalist democracy. The history I have quoted created what we have had, and it is the way forward. :y :y :y
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
Still a waste of taxpayers money. So many bills to get through and so little time. Yes she was a great leader but remember her next Wednesday not by frittering away valuable Parliamentary time. The only timne to reconvene Parliament should be for the death of the Monarch or war.
It is a mark of respect that this nation gives to it's great leaders. It is the least we can do, remembering, as one politician stated today, that if nothing else she secured a rebate from Brussels of £75 billion. So before anyone questions the cost of her funeral, please remember that. :y :y
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Nope, and the Great Man agreed (see my addition to the last post) and although made back in 1947, it in my view still holds good. Tell us Cem of a better one for the people and the country? ;) ;)
here is the related link Lizzie and there is a related youtube video :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112022.15)
Thanks Cem, but I did read that first time round. ;) ;)
However, now let me give my own potted version of British history in a few words, rather than reams of cut and post from other authors:
History in Britain has been one of monarchy and church acquiring power and wealth, then people rising up to create a "new" world of science and financial investment, first involving the academics, philosophers, scientists and innovators, but then over 200 years the "common" workers being more and more involved, prepared to put the monarchy and church on a lower rung of their ladder. The Industrial Revolution gave new opportunities to those ready and seeking them, with a better wage paid to the workers employed to drive the machinery of the new age than they received by working the land. The workers then realised their worth, and strove to gain better working conditions, then better homes. Their aspirations grew and they reached out for a greater say in their lives from the elite, who eventually had to concede political power, bit by bit, to the growing power of influential groups and their demands. To avoid the threat of revolution, successive governments gave way to political reform, new working conditions, better housing, unions, free education for all, and a general recognition of workers rights. The British capitalist democratic system grew and grew, becoming one of great wealth, but still one of injustice.
Two World Wars discredited the elite, and proved the average person could be given true power. Voting rights for all were gained after the Labour Party was formed in 1918, and even women had those full rights from 1925. Labour took charge of the country in 1945 and gave us the Welfare system, the NHS, and modern education, apart from a true belief that the people had now gained real power. By 1960 the Conservative Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, was able to say the British "Had never had it so good" after the country was powering away from WW2, clearing it's debts, and most people were enjoying a new prosperity.
I will not repeat what others have stated about when Labour came to power from 1964 and started the trend to give the unions greater, almost exclusive, power, with their leaders demanding more and more for their members, which the industries concerned could not afford and creating a "strike culture", that damaged the development of many industries and their products. This led to uncompetitive products being produced by British industry, and the nationalised companies being run into the ground, demanding higher and higher government subsidies and unbelievably larger and larger wage demands. All was given by "frightened" and weak Labour government who feared the power of the unions with their block votes.
Something had to give, and in 1979 Maggie Thatcher came to power and started the great revival and fight to regain democratic power over the unions and a good sorting out of the sick nationalised companies, that would lead to the "sick man of Europe" slogan that was said about Briton before 1979, disappearing. The rest is history.
That is British capitalism and democracy at its best, working together to create a stronger, wealthier nation. It is what we need again Cem in Britain, that mix. Strong leadership, powering a capitalist democracy. The history I have quoted created what we have had, and it is the way forward. :y :y :y
Lizzie, the info I shared may be cut and paste, but this neither make them wrong nor incomplete ;)
needless to say , neither you nor me can rewrite history :) and at the era mentioned "United Kingdom" was an imperial power ruling wide lands of world which your economic growth was powered with ;)
ps: my intention was not to continue this debate with you.. :y
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but if you continue this historical subject on a different thread when I have time, I may give long anwers as well :y
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
;D :y
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...we had to go on a waiting list to have a phone installed (and even then, we may have had to share the line with a neighbour).
Oh, I remember that from my childhood. (And some of their daughter's conversations which were accidentally interrupted) :-X ::)
Indeed, the old party lines. And when you couldn't get a dial tone, go piss on the earth spike.... ....or by the time I was a telephone engineer, remind customers to water their lines....
Party line in America maybe. Over here it was shared service.
Opps, indeed, I should have known that :-[
They were the bane of my life, as towards the end of my stint out in the vans, 700 spares were getting really scarce.
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Lizzie nice posts the last two well bloody said indeed not written a lot on this post but been swearing away, quite angry at some peoples attitude hence why i dont do politics squeezing some ones wind pipe to shut them up never goes down well ;D ;D ;D
what you said girl you said it very well :y :y
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
Al, if you have a personal problem with me do tell directly or pm.. whatever you choose..
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One of the most sensible articles I've seen on this
Please read slowly and carefully
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/grace-dent-thatchers-children-we-may-be-but-these-death-parties-are-just-childish-8567288.html
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
None taken al, as you never do offend me.
I will say to others as well you cannot offend me as long as personal insults are kept out of it as one member tried to do to me recently. EVERYONE is entitled to their viewpoints, but if some do not enjoy the banter/discussion between two members / friends as Cem and I have, don't bother to read the posts. Simples! :D :D :D ;) But to all others you are welcome to watch and read the passions of humans if you want on an open forum, along with joining in if you wish! No problems! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lizzie nice posts the last two well bloody said indeed not written a lot on this post but been swearing away, quite angry at some peoples attitude hence why i dont do politics squeezing some ones wind pipe to shut them up never goes down well ;D ;D ;D
what you said girl you said it very well :y :y
Thanks Paul! At least somebody enjoys what I write!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
None taken al, as you never do offend me.
I will say to others as well you cannot offend me as long as personal insults are kept out of it as one member tried to do to me recently. EVERYONE is entitled to their viewpoints, but if some do not enjoy the banter/discussion between two members / friends as Cem and I have, don't bother to read the posts. Simples! :D :D :D ;) But to all others you are welcome to watch and read the passions of humans if you want on an open forum, along with joining in if you wish! No problems! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Get a room ;) ;D ;D ;D::) ::) :D
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
None taken al, as you never do offend me.
I will say to others as well you cannot offend me as long as personal insults are kept out of it as one member tried to do to me recently. EVERYONE is entitled to their viewpoints, but if some do not enjoy the banter/discussion between two members / friends as Cem and I have, don't bother to read the posts. Simples! :D :D :D ;) But to all others you are welcome to watch and read the passions of humans if you want on an open forum, along with joining in if you wish! No problems! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Get a room ;) ;D ;D ;D::) ::) :D
Now there's an idea Cleggy! :D :D :y :y :y Cem and I could sell tickets! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
None taken al, as you never do offend me.
I will say to others as well you cannot offend me as long as personal insults are kept out of it as one member tried to do to me recently. EVERYONE is entitled to their viewpoints, but if some do not enjoy the banter/discussion between two members / friends as Cem and I have, don't bother to read the posts. Simples! :D :D :D ;) But to all others you are welcome to watch and read the passions of humans if you want on an open forum, along with joining in if you wish! No problems! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Get a room ;) ;D ;D ;D::) ::) :D
Now there's an idea Cleggy! :D :D :y :y :y Cem and I could sell tickets! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
At a girl :y if you can make it last as long as some of your posts we could have an interval and sell ice cream as well ::) ::) ;)
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Rod Stewart has been asked to sing "Wake Up Maggie" at the funeral but apparently it's not to everyones liking :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The Lizzie and Cem show, start your own thread and save the rest of from the drivel please ::) ::) :y
Fantastic idea :y Could he get his own sticky :-\
(no offence Lizzie)
None taken al, as you never do offend me.
I will say to others as well you cannot offend me as long as personal insults are kept out of it as one member tried to do to me recently. EVERYONE is entitled to their viewpoints, but if some do not enjoy the banter/discussion between two members / friends as Cem and I have, don't bother to read the posts. Simples! :D :D :D ;) But to all others you are welcome to watch and read the passions of humans if you want on an open forum, along with joining in if you wish! No problems! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Get a room ;) ;D ;D ;D::) ::) :D
Now there's an idea Cleggy! :D :D :y :y :y Cem and I could sell tickets! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
At a girl :y if you can make it last as long as some of your posts we could have an interval and sell ice cream as well ::) ::) ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
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Rod Stewart has been asked to sing "Wake Up Maggie" at the funeral but apparently it's not to everyones liking :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I like the idea! Good one! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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(http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/steveavfc/561360_495874463808053_559486848_n.jpg) (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/steveavfc/media/561360_495874463808053_559486848_n.jpg.html)
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That's now my desktop :) :)
Cheers for that :y
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So true :y :y :y :y
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For some reason this song is number one in the UK at the moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nrEdYyejlj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nrEdYyejlj8)
She must have been popular.
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You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.It does however show the pathetic mentality of some of our population.As has already been mentioned,from footage on tv it appears most of them werent even born until her era was finished,so they aint got a clue what they are talking about.Ignorant poeple in every sense of he word.
They often say her worst trait was a lack of compassion,yet its hard to imagine anything less compassionate than people partying to celebrate the death of another human being,particularily when its entirely possible her family are watching it on TV.
If this is the results of our left wing comprehensive education system,then the sooner we scrap the whole thing and start gain from scratch the better.
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they always say you can educate a monkey but you cant give it common sense
not only were half these people still pooing thier pants and sucking on a bottle but a good majority probably were not even in this country
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It is they who show themselves for the retarded morons they are. :(
This is why, like I said before that I'm pleased that the FA are not having a minutes silence before the weekend fixtures.
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I see a Police sergeant has been caught tweeting the most vile thoughts imaginable about her,as well as saying he hopes the same thng happens to other senior Tories.He even described how he would like to sexually assualt and then slowly kill Theresa May.It makes sickening reading. Hopefully hes about to be sacked.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307705/Margaret-Thatcher-death-I-hope-death-degrading-painful-tweets-sick-Scotland-Yard-sergeant.html
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if he gets sacked at least hes got a job as a singer ::) ::) :)
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He's now resigned! :y :y :y :y :y :y
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
In addition to his opinions or views right or wrong, he should be sacked for sheer the stupidity of putting this stuff on Twitter, Thickbook, or anywhere public.
Just how many Twittiots have ruined their lives or someone elses through being so dense. . . . and a police officer ! FFS.
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
They do Cleggy, but you never know what is really inside somebodies brain in terms of political thought, and in terms of what this 'outburst' consisted of, after allowing for everyone having an opinion on most topics, individual thought will live.
Mind you, all business profile tests on me concluded I was right of Attila The Hun, and in many ways I was / am, which helped me survive as a woman in business! I certainly sacked enough people, apart from developing many others ;D ;D ;D ;)
What that police officer spouted was inexcusable that's for sure. But there will be others like that. I know, I had an uncle who was a police sergeant who's views were extreme! Nothing has changed when you dig down deep as I know during police training sessions. ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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::) interesting news.. it must be a boring day for many Brits..
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
They do Cleggy, but you never know what is really inside somebodies brain in terms of political thought, and in terms of what this 'outburst' consisted of, after allowing for everyone having an opinion on most topics, individual thought will live.
Mind you, all business profile tests on me concluded I was right of Attila The Hun, and in many ways I was / am, which helped me survive as a woman in business! I certainly sacked enough people, apart from developing many others ;D ;D ;D ;)
What that police officer spouted was inexcusable that's for sure. But there will be others like that. I know, I had an uncle who was a police sergeant who's views were extreme! Nothing has changed when you dig down deep as I know during police training sessions. ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Dominatrix. :D :-* :-* :-*
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
They do Cleggy, but you never know what is really inside somebodies brain in terms of political thought, and in terms of what this 'outburst' consisted of, after allowing for everyone having an opinion on most topics, individual thought will live.
Mind you, all business profile tests on me concluded I was right of Attila The Hun, and in many ways I was / am, which helped me survive as a woman in business! I certainly sacked enough people, apart from developing many others ;D ;D ;D ;)
What that police officer spouted was inexcusable that's for sure. But there will be others like that. I know, I had an uncle who was a police sergeant who's views were extreme! Nothing has changed when you dig down deep as I know during police training sessions. ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Dominatrix. :D :-* :-* :-*
Stop fantasising .... :) :) :)
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
They do Cleggy, but you never know what is really inside somebodies brain in terms of political thought, and in terms of what this 'outburst' consisted of, after allowing for everyone having an opinion on most topics, individual thought will live.
Mind you, all business profile tests on me concluded I was right of Attila The Hun, and in many ways I was / am, which helped me survive as a woman in business! I certainly sacked enough people, apart from developing many others ;D ;D ;D ;)
What that police officer spouted was inexcusable that's for sure. But there will be others like that. I know, I had an uncle who was a police sergeant who's views were extreme! Nothing has changed when you dig down deep as I know during police training sessions. ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Dominatrix. :D :-* :-* :-*
Stop fantasising .... :) :) :)
.......I saw a flash of knee high black leather boots and a coiled whip....and then. :D :D :D ;)
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Resigned or pushed keeping his pension >:(
They should sack those who hired him amd promoted him, don't these people have attitude/personality assesments ???
They do Cleggy, but you never know what is really inside somebodies brain in terms of political thought, and in terms of what this 'outburst' consisted of, after allowing for everyone having an opinion on most topics, individual thought will live.
Mind you, all business profile tests on me concluded I was right of Attila The Hun, and in many ways I was / am, which helped me survive as a woman in business! I certainly sacked enough people, apart from developing many others ;D ;D ;D ;)
What that police officer spouted was inexcusable that's for sure. But there will be others like that. I know, I had an uncle who was a police sergeant who's views were extreme! Nothing has changed when you dig down deep as I know during police training sessions. ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Dominatrix. :D :-* :-* :-*
Oh yes, in my prime Opti............... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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I think all these celebrations show how nasty, shallow and vindictive the left wing in this country and worldwide are. People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.
Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.
IMHO this country as a whole seems to have lost all morality where people should be able to do their own thing, however selfish, obnoxious and degenerative it is to society. This these days this seems to start in our education system.
Whatever happened to the UK convention of not thinking ill of the dead, whether written in an obituary or spoken? What the left-wing scum are doing in celebrating her death IMHO is very small minded, bad tasting, nastiness.
Now I have an intense political dislike of many hypocritical left-wing politicians like Galloway, Livingstone and Scargill, but I would not think ill of them when at some point they pass away, because at the end of the day they are somebodies son, father, uncle and although I disagree with their politics you don't know what they do in other ways to help their families and society.
With Margaret Thatcher the country was in a much better position in 1991 when she left, than it was in 1979 when she came to power. She put the Great back into Britain and was reelected 3 time on her policies getting a bigger majority on each occasion. Many people talk about her destruction of Industry, but manufacturing was 7.5% higher in 1991, than in 1979. Yes, the face of industry had changed, but IMHO for the better where it dragged the UK into the 20th century and got rid of many 19th century working practices.
Since she left in 1991, public spending and taxation have continuously risen and manufacturing and the velocity of money have been in continuous decline. Labour and the EU have consistently put up business costs through taxation and ill thought out social law, which has decimated our international competitiveness. Margaret Thatcher opened the UK's doors for business again, which is why we had the 1985-1989 and 1993-97 booms, since then Labour has closed the door and Vince Cable and other LibCons have triple locked it.
IMHO this country or for that matter any EU country are currently not the place to do business. This is why all EU countries are in decline compared to the US, the BRICS and many other countries and will continue to be so as it becomes the new third world.
This country with its current perilous economic position desperately needs another Margaret Thatcher but all we have is CaMoron, Thick Clegg, Millipede and Balls-up.
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I think all these celebrations show how nasty, shallow and vindictive the left wing in this country and worldwide are.
thats a very wide generalisation Rods and ı'm afraid its not correct.. I dont see any celebration outside UK..
and honestly no one cares
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I think all these celebrations show how nasty, shallow and vindictive the left wing in this country and worldwide are.
thats a very wide generalisation Rods and ı'm afraid its not correct.. I dont see any celebration outside UK..
and honestly no one cares
Try Argentina ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Never mind Thatcher, I wish this thread was dead.
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I think all these celebrations show how nasty, shallow and vindictive the left wing in this country and worldwide are.
thats a very wide generalisation Rods and ı'm afraid its not correct.. I dont see any celebration outside UK..
and honestly no one cares
Try Argentina ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
only the old generations probably .. but Falkland war was long time ago..
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I think all these celebrations show how nasty, shallow and vindictive the left wing in this country and worldwide are.
thats a very wide generalisation Rods and ı'm afraid its not correct.. I dont see any celebration outside UK..
and honestly no one cares
Try Argentina ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
only the old generations probably .. but Falkland war was long time ago..
Its still very much on their agenda & all over their press.
Their controversial Olympic training video was filmed there ;)
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Never mind Thatcher, I wish this thread was dead.
+1 :y
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People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.
Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.
.
No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.
Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising, but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.
:y :y :y
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Never mind Thatcher, I wish this thread was dead.
Yeah totally agree.
Whatever you feel, for or against, its part of our history now. The past is the past, no use trying to relive it. Lets think of the future and whats happening now in this country ;) :y
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People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.
Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.
.
No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.
Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising, but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.
:y :y :y
Sounds pretty much the same to me Lizzie, just put slightly differently..... :-\
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People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.
Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.
.
No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.
Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising, but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.
:y :y :y
The fact that your use the description "totalitarian" to describe Hitler and "authoritarian" to describe Stalin shows there's not a gnat's difference between them. My view is shared (more eloquently) by a writer here:
Fascism is an amorphous ideology mobilizing an entire nation (Mussolini, Franco and Peron) or race (Hitler) for a common purpose. Leaders of industry, science, education, the arts and politics combine to shepherd society in an all encompassing quest. Hitler’s premise was a pure Aryan Germany capable of dominating Europe.
While he feinted right, Hitler and Stalin were natural bedfellows. Hitler mimicked Lenin’s path to totalitarian tyranny, parlaying crises into power. Nazis despised Marxists not over ideology, but because they had betrayed Germany in World War I and Nazis found it unconscionable that German communists yielded fealty to Slavs in Moscow.
The National Socialist German Workers Party staged elaborate marches with uniformed workers calling one another “comrade” while toting tools the way soldiers shoulder rifles. The bright red Nazi flag symbolized socialism in a “classless, casteless” Germany (white represents Aryanism). Fascist central planning was not egalitarian, but it divvied up economic rewards very similarly to communism: party membership and partnering with the state.
From a 2011 Article in Forbes magazine
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/09/01/obama-hitler-and-exploding-the-biggest-lie-in-history/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/09/01/obama-hitler-and-exploding-the-biggest-lie-in-history/) :y
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RIP Maggie
I was just saying to Phil today... what a combination if we had Queen Victoria and Maggie in power at the same time
Lee :-X
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in some members eyes we must be Russian to comment on Stalin and German to comment on Hitler..
Again I'll break this rule.. sorry.. and also this copy paste rules.. ;D
because in order to comment on them we need to read their past lifes..
"As a child, Ioseb ( Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin) was plagued with numerous health issues. ....................................... His face was left permanently scarred after he contracted smallpox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox) at the age of 7. Later, at age 12, he injured his left arm in an accident involving a horse-drawn carriage, rendering it shorter and stiffer than its counterpart. During the first several years of his life, Stalin and his mother were subjected to severe physical abuse at the hands of his father (cobbler) , who was severely alcoholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic). When Geladze enrolled Ioseb into an Orthodox priesthood school against her husband's wishes, Jughashvili went on a public rampage. He was banished from Gori for assaulting its police chief. He subsequently moved to Tiflis (Tbilisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi)), leaving his family behind"
this is from wikipedia.. and I think this answers most of the why questions ..
In my opinion Stalin was a highest degree ignorant,coward and betrayer..
Before anything he betrayed the Russian revolution and betrayed all friends and his citizens.. And has nothing to do with socialism imo.. he was only at the correct place at the correct time and he benefited every chance..
his only success was collectivisation but completely failed in the army management.. sacked most of his succesful generals with fear and brought the Russian army to its knees just before the war.. And lacking complete foresight .. The only common point with Hitler is both are extremely stubborn..
and Adolf Hitler:
"Hitler became fixated on warfare after finding a picture book about the Franco-Prussian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War) among his father's belongings.
The move to Hafeld coincided with the onset of intense father-son conflicts caused by Hitler's refusal to conform to the strict discipline of his school. Alois Hitler's farming efforts at Hafeld ended in failure, and in 1897 the family moved to Lambach. The eight-year-old Hitler took singing lessons, sang in the church choir, and even considered becoming a priest. In 1898 the family returned permanently to Leonding. The death of his younger brother, Edmund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Hitler), from measles on 2 February 1900 deeply affected Hitler. He changed from being confident and outgoing and an excellent student, to a morose, detached, and sullen boy who constantly fought with his father and teachers."
" Ignoring his son's desire to attend a classical high school and become an artist, in September 1900 Alois sent Hitler to the Realschule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realschule) in Linz. (This was the same high school that Adolf Eichmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann) would attend some 17 years later.) Hitler rebelled against this decision, and in Mein Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf) revealed that he did poorly in school, hoping that once his father saw "what little progress I was making at the technical school he would let me devote myself to my dream"
"From 1905, Hitler lived a bohemian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemianism) life in Vienna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna), financed by orphan's benefits and support from his mother. He worked as a casual labourer and eventually as a painter, selling watercolours. The Academy of Fine Arts Vienna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Fine_Arts_Vienna) rejected him twice, in 1907 and 1908, because of his "unfitness for painting". The director recommended that Hitler study architecture, but he lacked the academic credentials. On 21 December 1907, his mother died aged 47. After the Academy's second rejection, Hitler ran out of money. In 1909 he lived in a homeless shelter, and by 1910, he had settled into a house for poor working men on Meldemannstraße (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meldemannstra%C3%9Fe_dormitory). At the time Hitler lived there, Vienna was a hotbed of religious prejudice and racism. Fears of being overrun by immigrants from the East were widespread, and the populist mayor, Karl Lueger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Lueger), exploited the rhetoric of virulent antisemitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism) for political effect. Georg Schönerer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Ritter_von_Sch%C3%B6nerer)'s pan-Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germanism) antisemitism had a strong following in the Mariahilf district (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariahilf), where Hitler lived
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[continued}
Hitler read local newspapers, such as the Deutsches Volksblatt, that fanned prejudice and played on Christian fears of being swamped by an influx of eastern Jews"
"At the outbreak of World War I, Hitler was a resident of Munich and volunteered to serve in the Bavarian Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Army) as an Austrian citizen. Posted to the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Bavarian_Reserve_Division_(German_Empire)) (1st Company of the List Regiment), he served as a dispatch runner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_(soldier)) on the Western Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_I)) in France and Belgium, spending nearly half his time well behind the front lines. He was present at the First Battle of Ypres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Ypres), the Battle of the Somme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme), the Battle of Arras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arras_(1917)), and the Battle of Passchendaele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele), and was wounded at the Somme.
He was decorated for bravery, receiving the Iron Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross), Second Class, in 1914. Recommended by Hugo Gutmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gutmann), he received the Iron Cross, First Class, on 4 August 1918, a decoration rarely awarded to one of Hitler's rank (Gefreiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefreiter)). Hitler's post at regimental headquarters, providing frequent interactions with senior officers, may have helped him receive this decoration. Though his rewarded actions may have been courageous, they were probably not highly exceptional. He also received the Black Wound Badge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_Badge) on 18 May 1918.
..................................... During the Battle of the Somme in October 1916, he was wounded either in the groin area or the left thigh by a shell that had exploded in the dispatch runners' dugout. Hitler spent almost two months in the Red Cross hospital at Beelitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelitz), returning to his regiment on 5 March 1917. On 15 October 1918, he was temporarily blinded by a mustard gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas) attack and was hospitalised in Pasewalk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasewalk). While there, Hitler learnt of Germany's defeat, and—by his own account—on receiving this news, he suffered a second bout of blindness."
"Having no formal education and career prospects, he tried to remain in the army for as long as possible. In July 1919 he was appointed Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance commando) of the Reichswehr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichswehr),"
". In 1923, he attempted a coup d'état (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat) in Munich, known as the Beer Hall Putsch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch). The failed coup resulted in Hitler's imprisonment, during which time he wrote his memoir, Mein Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf) (My Struggle). After his release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) and promoting Pan-Germanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germanism), antisemitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism), and anti-communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communism) with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda). After his appointment as chancellor in 1933, he transformed the Weimar Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic) into the Third Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany), a single-party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) dictatorship based on the totalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism) and autocratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocratic) ideology of Nazism."
after reading those lines I can conclude that he has courage and ambition so much that he and his nation cant handle..but he has foresight (some members may oppose to that but remember he nearly fight with whole world powers-although a bit contradictory), more army knowledge (than Stalin) and he is a patriot.. and a nutter..
and as a conclusion, I think Hitler was far more succesfull than Stalin.. if Germanies natural sources + man power was enough he could beat Russians..
from Lizzie,
but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.
Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising, but he made it an authoritarian state
And I agree with that..
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RIP Maggie
I was just saying to Phil today... what a combination if we had Queen Victoria and Maggie in power at the same time
Lee :-X
Indeed. :y
I have to say that I read this blog (one of my favourites) and thought it was one of the most well-reasoned and thoughtful pieces I have seen in the past few days:
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatcher-rip/ (http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatcher-rip/)
An excellent post, IMHO. :y :y :y
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
apparently not see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22123307
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You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.
I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.
Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
apparently not see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22123307
Your right.I heard someone say it on TV and took it at face value without checking.Should have known better. ::)
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You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.
I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.
Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.
As of yesterday it had sold 29,000 copies,according to SKY news.Dont think its going to rival Do they know its Christmas. ;)
Presumably you and people like you dont give a toss about the effect this type of thing might have on her grieving family ?
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Just heard what I think is the best joke,
Rod Stewart has been asked to sing Wake up Maggie at the funeral service.
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You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.
I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.
Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.
As of yesterday it had sold 29,000 copies,according to SKY news.Dont think its going to rival Do they know its Christmas. ;)
Presumably you and people like you dont give a toss about the effect this type of thing might have on her grieving family ?
..... and now we know there are at least 29,000 complete and utter morons in this country!! ::)
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Yep, we have a dose of the Trots(kyites). ::)
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Just heard what I think is the best joke,
Rod Stewart has been asked to sing Wake up Maggie at the funeral service.
Check post 226 :y
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People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.
Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.
.
No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.
Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising, but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.
:y :y :y
The fact that your use the description "totalitarian" to describe Hitler and "authoritarian" to describe Stalin shows there's not a gnat's difference between them. My view is shared (more eloquently) by a writer here:
Fascism is an amorphous ideology mobilizing an entire nation (Mussolini, Franco and Peron) or race (Hitler) for a common purpose. Leaders of industry, science, education, the arts and politics combine to shepherd society in an all encompassing quest. Hitler’s premise was a pure Aryan Germany capable of dominating Europe.
While he feinted right, Hitler and Stalin were natural bedfellows. Hitler mimicked Lenin’s path to totalitarian tyranny, parlaying crises into power. Nazis despised Marxists not over ideology, but because they had betrayed Germany in World War I and Nazis found it unconscionable that German communists yielded fealty to Slavs in Moscow.
The National Socialist German Workers Party staged elaborate marches with uniformed workers calling one another “comrade” while toting tools the way soldiers shoulder rifles. The bright red Nazi flag symbolized socialism in a “classless, casteless” Germany (white represents Aryanism). Fascist central planning was not egalitarian, but it divvied up economic rewards very similarly to communism: party membership and partnering with the state.
From a 2011 Article in Forbes magazine
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/09/01/obama-hitler-and-exploding-the-biggest-lie-in-history/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/09/01/obama-hitler-and-exploding-the-biggest-lie-in-history/) :y
To save me writing a book, I will unusually answer you Nick and Rods2 by way of referenced quotes from academic sources on the subject we are discussing. You are both right in terms, as with many political regimes, left or right wing traits are common in both Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany and they were similar in the way they "resolved" their issues, both being absolutely ruthless, brutal and extreme. However, as I touched on before their ideology was different and represented the two extremes of philosophy, 'left and right' which is the loose label we apply to political parties. So, to summarize my points I quote:
"Fascism is a generic name for a particular brand of totalitarian regime. The name taken from the Latin fascas, the ceremonial bundle of rods and an axe carried before magistrates in ancient Rome, symbolizing the power and unity of the Roman imperium, was coined by Mussolini, whose National Socialist Party was the first such group to gain power. In a general sense, it can be taken to include the National Socialists of Adolf Hitler in Germany." Keegan. J. The Oxford Companion To World War II OUP 2005 p.274.
"Nazis Ideology aimed at the building of a new social order in Germany to prepare the German nation for fighting: it laid emphasis on the radical or biological character of politics: and it contained the view that only through conflict with other races and nations could Germant prove itself worthy to establish a new German empire. The ideas produced by Nazism were not particularly novel. They were derived from vulgar ideas about race and empire common to the radical right throughout Europe." [/b]Keegan. J. The Oxford Companion To World War II OUP 2005 p.607
"Nazism. The political doctrines evolved and implemented by Adolf Hitler and his followers. esp those relating to radical superiority: the German Nazi movement : gen. right-wing esp. racist, authoritarianism." Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Sixth Edition Vol.II OUP 2007 p.1898
"Communism, the generally accepted name for the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, and for regimes based upon it. Though communist call themselves 'socialists', their movement had little in common with non-communist forms of socialism, or with earlier forms of communism in history, including Christian communism." [/b]Keegan. J. The Oxford Companion To World War II OUP 2005 p.200
"Stalinism. The politics pursued by Stalin: the version of Marxism-Leninism based on these, associated esp. with centralization, totalitarianism, and objectivism." Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Sixth Edition Vol.II OUP 2007 p.2993
:y :y
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Stop hating on Margaret Thatcher, the Potts got less grief for murdering their own children. MT was doing her job as we voted for her to do!. She is daughter, mother, grandmother, please respect that! >:( >:(
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+1... :y Must add, I got a text early this week reference Rod Stewart singing at the funeral. I treated it with the utmost contempt that it deserved. So sad that 'sick' jokes such as this are thought to be humorous... >:(
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Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies. ;)
apparently not see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22123307
Your right.I heard someone say it on TV and took it at face value without checking.Should have known better. ::)
Personally I wouldn't believe anything Ken Clark had to say as he consistently undermined Margaret Thatcher while in her cabinet and was at the forefront of those that wanted to depose her in 1991. IMHO as bad or worse than Heseltine and Howe and the other backstabbing Tory wets.
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Where the political spectrum is essentially a circle the extreme left and right have many common attributes. I think we can argue on whether Nazi party were to the extreme left or right as on many policies they were very similar with the absolute control of the state and its use as the only means of production. There certainly were differences, but many more similarities. Eastern Europe and the USSR were always anti-semitic, which is why you saw mass migration to Israel in the 1970's and 80's.
I think it partly comes down to Lizzies comment on 12 historians together will have 14 different opinions. :y
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The best tributes I have seen on Margaret Thatcher has been by somebody that knew and worked with her in John Redwood's diaries this week.
He has spoken many kind words including saying she was the best boss he has ever worked for. He said working with her was very different to the tough persona built around her by her speech writers and dress and presentation advisors, where as the UK's first PM they were worried when she first became PM she would have difficulties in being taken seriously in what was still essentially a man's world.
Her way of listening to policies and factual political thoughts and opinions along with other appropriate advisors was based upon finding the best possible solutions to problems which is why once adopted, she had the courage and confidence to see them through. They not only had to pass the test of being the right and best thing to do, but would also be subject to finding the correct answers to the expected questions and criticisms by being put through a 'devil advocate' test. He said, this was her key to good Government and this is why she got so much done so successfully.
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Maggie is now in the past ..She passed away some days ago...I think this thread needs to go the same way....We all have our opinions of maggie...I think we should leave it at that. :y
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Maggie is now in the past ..She passed away some days ago...I think this thread needs to go the same way....We all have our opinions of maggie...I think we should leave it at that. :y
While people wish to contribute to this thread then let it be. Reading it is not mandatory. ;)
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what....keep slagging the dead
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what....keep slagging the dead
No, there are some of us that respect Margaret Thatcher for being a great leader and would wish to express our thoughts in this week of her funeral. :y
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what....keep slagging the dead
..and your in-box is full. Couldn't reply to your PM. ;)
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empty now :y
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Maggie is now in the past ..She passed away some days ago...I think this thread needs to go the same way....We all have our opinions of maggie...I think we should leave it at that. :y
yes it has reached thatcheration point
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Maggie is now in the past ..She passed away some days ago...I think this thread needs to go the same way....We all have our opinions of maggie...I think we should leave it at that. :y
yes it has reached thatcheration point
I'm here for long time and didnt know we had this much Thatcher fans :o
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Maggie is now in the past ..She passed away some days ago...I think this thread needs to go the same way....We all have our opinions of maggie...I think we should leave it at that. :y
While people wish to contribute to this thread then let it be. Reading it is not mandatory. ;)
Agreed Nick, and as I said before! :y :y :y :y
What is the point of a General Chat section on a Forum if we cannot debate, discuss and deliberate as much as each wants to or not in a free society. ;)
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
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Thats the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation for you. ;)
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so who is paying £10m for funeral then??? we the skint jobless ones no doubt :'( :'(
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so who is paying £10m for funeral then??? we the skint jobless ones no doubt :'( :'(
Her family is paying "something" towards it, but let us not forget the £75 billion she got back as a EU rebate. She is worth every penny of the £10 million, and just think of the income from tourism to the capital that will be a bonus. :y :y
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£10 million on a funeral stuff that-how about putting into some useful charities instead -now that would be good :y
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
Didn't you once say that the BBC was a wholly objective and therefore trustworthy corporation, Lizzie. ::) ::) :-* :-* :-* :-* ;)
Or was that me? ;)
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
You're right it was a bloody disgrace, we pay a license for this biased lefty rubbish >:( >:( >:(
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
Didn't you once say that the BBC was a wholly objective and therefore trustworthy corporation, Lizzie. ::) ::) :-* :-* :-* :-* ;)
Or was that me? ;)
+1 ;)
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
Didn't you once say that the BBC was a wholly objective and therefore trustworthy corporation, Lizzie. ::) ::) :-* :-* :-* :-* ;)
Or was that me? ;)
It was you!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
No, the BBC can be very good at so much of what they do, but sometimes the lefties take hold of the court! ::) ::) :D ;)
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought.
A lot of people hated her for the things she did, I think some people need to get over that fact. You don't stop hating someone like that just because they've died and out of respect for their families. A lot of families were affected by her in her time.
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I watched the Big Question this morning as usual on BBC1.
First big question was about people "celebrating" the death of our Maggie.
Not for the first time the BBC seems to have imported a whole studio, but one or two, of hateful, spiteful, resentful, and wholly unpleasant left wing radicals who held very personal vile feelings about Maggie who could not give one inch to their unforgiving barrage of highly insensitive thought. I am all for free speech of course, but this was no balanced, democratic debate with this "group" shouting down at every opportunity those few who tried to present the other side of the story in a balanced manner.
Ironically they reflected exactly what Maggie took on after 1979: the left wing socialists who literally shouted down and bullied the opposition they faced in industry and the country at large, wanting everything their way, which the unions got under the Labour governments!
It was appalling and the BBC should be ashamed. There was no respect given! >:( >:(
Didn't you once say that the BBC was a wholly objective and therefore trustworthy corporation, Lizzie. ::) ::) :-* :-* :-* :-* ;)
Or was that me? ;)
It was you!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
No, the BBC can be very good at so much of what they do, but sometimes the lefties take hold of the court! ::) ::) :D ;)
I believe we've both both said something along those lines at one time or another, Lizzie. ;) :-* :-* :-*
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When people are bad mannered, rude and offensive, to me it just reflects badly on them and as my ex father-in-law used to say "poor specimens of humanity".
I also think it reflects badly on the BBC. Where in their charter they are meant to be impartial and they are not. For over a year I haven't watched TV as I'm not prepared to fund these bunch of charlatans by paying the licence fee, especially where I never watched the BBC as virtually all of their programmes have hidden agendas, even their nature programs with their global warming slants / rants. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Churchill got his own back on the BBC and Lord Raith where they hated each other and Lord Raith mission was to prevent Churchill having any broadcast time on the BBC. He introduced the legislation that brought into being competition in the form of ITV. :y :y :y
Personally, I would privatize the BBC and make it stand on its own feet. If there is a market for their socially corrosive left-wing biased rubbish, then let them earn a living through it in the marketplace, just like the permanent loss making Guardian newspaper. Personally, I think within 12 months they would follow "The Morning Star" into oblivion and as far as I'm concerned it would be good riddence to a state subsidised propaganda machine.
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When people are bad mannered, rude and offensive, to me it just reflects badly on them and as my ex father-in-law used to say "poor specimens of humanity".
I also think it reflects badly on the BBC. Where in their charter they are meant to be impartial and they are not. For over a year I haven't watched TV as I'm not prepared to fund these bunch of charlatans by paying the licence fee, especially where I never watched the BBC as virtually all of their programmes have hidden agendas, even their nature programs with their global warming slants / rants. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Churchill got his own back on the BBC and Lord Raith where they hated each other and Lord Raith mission was to prevent Churchill having any broadcast time on the BBC. He introduced the legislation that brought into being competition in the form of ITV. :y :y :y
Personally, I would privatize the BBC and make it stand on its own feet. If there is a market for their socially corrosive left-wing biased rubbish, then let them earn a living through it in the marketplace, just like the permanent loss making Guardian newspaper. Personally, I think within 12 months they would follow "The Morning Star" into oblivion and as far as I'm concerned it would be good riddence to a state subsidised propaganda machine.
modern education methods got a lot to do there mate :'(
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When people are bad mannered, rude and offensive, to me it just reflects badly on them and as my ex father-in-law used to say "poor specimens of humanity".
I also think it reflects badly on the BBC. Where in their charter they are meant to be impartial and they are not. For over a year I haven't watched TV as I'm not prepared to fund these bunch of charlatans by paying the licence fee, especially where I never watched the BBC as virtually all of their programmes have hidden agendas, even their nature programs with their global warming slants / rants. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Churchill got his own back on the BBC and Lord Raith where they hated each other and Lord Raith mission was to prevent Churchill having any broadcast time on the BBC. He introduced the legislation that brought into being competition in the form of ITV. :y :y :y
Personally, I would privatize the BBC and make it stand on its own feet. If there is a market for their socially corrosive left-wing biased rubbish, then let them earn a living through it in the marketplace, just like the permanent loss making Guardian newspaper. Personally, I think within 12 months they would follow "The Morning Star" into oblivion and as far as I'm concerned it would be good riddence to a state subsidised propaganda machine.
Sounds good in isolation but that's as far as it goes. The great thing about the BBC is that it doesn't need to 'stand on it's own feet' and compete.
Force the institution to 'compete' against the commercial channels and the dumbing down that we've already seen will only become worse.
It will become a 'ratings war' and sadly crap like the X-Faxtor and will always prove more popular than Newsnight or Horizon.
Is that what we really want ......more commercial crap television piled upon the crap that already dominates our screens?.
In my opinion 'the beeb' has already lowered it's standards too much. :'(
Competition isn't always the answer. :y
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I find all of these "It is our duty to both inform and educate people" sound bytes a bit patronising. It's exactly the thing that ruined our education system. Wait for the slowest to catch up and then move on. No thanks, I've switched over already.
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Get this!!
I posted my piece as in the original start of this thread on the BBC Message Board, which I subscribe to when I have strong feelings about their output.
Anyway just checked on the reactions and apart from a few usual reactions there are 13 posts no less that have been classed as:
"Message 13, in reply to message 12.
This post has been temporarily hidden, because a moderator has referred it to a supervisor, BBC host or the Central Communities Team for a decision as to whether it contravenes the House Rules in some way. A decision will be made as quickly as possible."
I think I may have started something! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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We are up to Post 19 now, and after still so many being "hidden", this one hasn't been and strikes me as so ironic and funny:
"Posted by thedogcody (U14659366) on Sunday, 14th April 2013 (1 Hour Ago)
All the right-wing ranters keep their posts - everyone else is modded. What does that tell us about POV?
You have the right to report a post if you feel it breaks the rules dont you?"
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D What, about the BBC!! :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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i can see big trouble on wednesday and cant see anybody stoping it dont people realize that the labour goverment before maggie put 100000people out of work and they closed hundreds of pits and outer firms shut down because they had spent all the money and borrowed 10 times the amount that the latest labour gov borrowed this country was bankrupt and the labour gov had to go cap in hand to the imf for a handout she pulled us out of the shit only for the nextlabour gov to throw it all away but no these idiot dont think like that they wernt even born they are going to turn a solem funeral in to a riot in front of the watching world god helpus the riots in 2011 will seem like a scrap down the pub
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I have refrained from asking BUT just who the hell decided to deify Maggie on Wednesday? I could understand it if she was the QUEEN. She wasn't , she is just another person.
Sure she was a strong leader. She was the first woman PM. But do we have to have a state funeral and risk IRE for her. All a bit daft and if it backfires we have "Desperate Dens" oft cited Hello mag culture to thank for it.
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i admit it a bit over the top
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
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Giving in to the mob is not an option in my opinion. Maggie wouldn't have that's for sure!!! :y
I think she'll be sent off as she lived, amongst controversy, howls of protest, possibly violence, and plenty of goodwill and respect! :)
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
Another 16 days and it will be Maggie May. ::)
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
Another 16 days and it will be Maggie May. ::)
16 MORE days of this??!! no thank you-all this political stuff is pointless-she's gone that's it
its leading to all sorts of reactions and wether you liked/hated her-thats it--please move on now its going to get out of hand :'( so lets all agree to disagree and thats it----please :y :y
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When people are bad mannered, rude and offensive, to me it just reflects badly on them and as my ex father-in-law used to say "poor specimens of humanity".
I also think it reflects badly on the BBC. Where in their charter they are meant to be impartial and they are not. For over a year I haven't watched TV as I'm not prepared to fund these bunch of charlatans by paying the licence fee, especially where I never watched the BBC as virtually all of their programmes have hidden agendas, even their nature programs with their global warming slants / rants. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Churchill got his own back on the BBC and Lord Raith where they hated each other and Lord Raith mission was to prevent Churchill having any broadcast time on the BBC. He introduced the legislation that brought into being competition in the form of ITV. :y :y :y
Personally, I would privatize the BBC and make it stand on its own feet. If there is a market for their socially corrosive left-wing biased rubbish, then let them earn a living through it in the marketplace, just like the permanent loss making Guardian newspaper. Personally, I think within 12 months they would follow "The Morning Star" into oblivion and as far as I'm concerned it would be good riddence to a state subsidised propaganda machine.
Sounds good in isolation but that's as far as it goes. The great thing about the BBC is that it doesn't need to 'stand on it's own feet' and compete.
Force the institution to 'compete' against the commercial channels and the dumbing down that we've already seen will only become worse.
It will become a 'ratings war' and sadly crap like the X-Faxtor and will always prove more popular than Newsnight or Horizon.
Is that what we really want ......more commercial crap television piled upon the crap that already dominates our screens?.
In my opinion 'the beeb' has already lowered it's standards too much. :'(
Competition isn't always the answer. :y
Agreed with you Opti.. although there are millions of channels very few left who makes quality programs.. if you force them to compete with sh*t channels they will mutate to the same kind.. And worse than that although in my opinion BBC is a capitalist channel it still keeps its level of dignity in most of its programs..
here when the govt changed (within time by the help of govt) their rich arms bought 90% of channels and we are left with all kinds of rightwing islamic propoganda.. >:( so I had to buy a package where I can watch independant channels >:( >:(
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
Another 16 days and it will be Maggie May. ::)
16 MORE days of this??!! no thank you-all this political stuff is pointless-she's gone that's it
its leading to all sorts of reactions and wether you liked/hated her-thats it--please move on now its going to get out of hand :'( so lets all agree to disagree and thats it----please :y :y
dont you go thinking you gonna get away with them words when nickbat and lizzie see it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
Yep.
I've got my views, and I'll keep 'em to myself.
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I have switched off to it now. Maggie overload.
Yep.
I've got my views, and I'll keep 'em to myself.
+1, bored with it all...........
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You lot are getting like john :y
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-prescott-margaret-thatcher-deserves-1829090
modify; for once he is about right
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You lot are getting like john :y
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-prescott-margaret-thatcher-deserves-1829090
modify; for once he is about right
Be honest everyone that is a very good article (no way did that fat idiot write it).
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from the link
"She also showed no faith to Nelson Mandela, whom she branded a terrorist, but called Chilean fascist dictator General Pinochet a “staunch true friend”
:o :( :-X
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Technically Mandela was ::), and that is how she felt about Pinochet, privately supporting him as a true friend would, even when his life fell apart :y
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Ive always had trouble understanding the cult of Mandela. Always found him quite unimpressive tbh,and afaik his people are still impoverished and living in shanty towns,in a country with superb natural wealth creating resources.
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Technically Mandela was ::) , and that is how she felt about Pinochet, privately supporting him as a true friend would, even when his life fell apart :y
My dictator is good yours is bad ;D
"According to various reports and investigations 1,200–3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 were interned, and up to 30,000 were tortured by his regime including women and children."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet)
real numbers could be more and he was as bloody as Saddam or Qaddafi.. And I'm sure Thatcher was not aware of that ;)
but must admit I'm not surprised..
we have a saying here: tell me your friends I can tell who you are..
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Very moving, very dignified, a terrific British tribute to a great woman.
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Very moving, very dignified, a terrific British tribute to a great woman.
+1 :y :y :y :y :y
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Didnt see it as I was in bed after working nightshift last night.Just been watching some highlights on SKY news and it looked like the type of thing that us Brits seem to do best.A unique mixture of pomp and dignity.
Amazed that Heseltine and Ken Clarke had the nerve to turn up tbh.Heseltine never hid the fact that he detested her,and Ken Clark was the man who campaigned tirelessly against her and convinced a lot of colleagues to vote against her in the last couple of days of her premiership,due to his great love of all things European,which she of course fought and argued against.
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As she herself said to her daughter, her place in History is assured and whether you loved her or hated her she returned this country's Backbone and Self Respect at a time when it was badly needed. Incidentally, I disliked her and admired her in equal measure. May she Rest in Peace.
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Very moving, very dignified, a terrific British tribute to a great woman.
+1 :y :y :y :y :y
+2 :y :y :y :y :y
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Very moving, very dignified, a terrific British tribute to a great woman.
+1 :y :y :y :y :y
+2 :y :y :y :y :y
+3 :y :y :y :y :y
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Very moving, very dignified, a terrific British tribute to a great woman.
+1 :y :y :y :y :y
+2 :y :y :y :y :y
+3 :y :y :y :y :y
+4 :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
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-1, I don't think she would like to have seen that amount of money spent on her.
Just my useless opinion of course.
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So much for the protests, boiled down to nothing. ;D
+5 on the above :)
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Missed it. :)
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Missed it. :)
Me too. I usually have the news on in the background, but I forgot today.
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had more important things to do than watch that
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I did put some very popular music on in my car specially for her today :y.
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A fitting tribute to a great Prime Minister and states women.
I agree that it was all done with great ceremony and dignity.
RIP.
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Yes, Maggie got a good and fitting send off!! :)
It was also good that by and large the cretins stayed away! :y