Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Radar on 19 July 2013, 18:21:51

Title: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 19 July 2013, 18:21:51
SWMBO said coolant warning came on last week but only told me now as there was a lot of liquid on the driveway. Looked like coming from back of engine / hbv area.

Header tank was empty so I topped with water - no sign of anything untoward (i.e. oil) in the header tank, ran the car for 15 mins. and all ok - switched off and no leak. Restarted and let idle again and some drops of coolant were landing on lamda sensor area but could not track the source. Oil cooler plate looked ok from what I could see, hbv was not wet (no wetness in driver/passenger wells), all pipes where coolant flows were dry as was radiator.

I have obviously missed something but can anyone give any pointers? Was banking on using the car next week for a few trips :'(


Thanks

Just took another look and its been about 45 mins since I topped up and approx. 1/4 - 1/2 litre dropped on driveway falling down onto lamda sensor area but still cant trace it further :(
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 19 July 2013, 18:39:23
HBV is most likely. Try checking with the climate set to HI and then LO.

Remember, top up with 50:50 mix antifreeze, not water, as antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 19 July 2013, 18:41:51
Thanks - will do now
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 19 July 2013, 18:58:07
Climate Hi - Coolant p****ing out from back of engine area landing around where the dustcap for the gearbox is
Climate Lo - Leak stops / very little
A/C off - Stops / very little

If this points to HBV - is it dealer only recommended?

Thanks
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: YZ250 on 19 July 2013, 19:07:42
Climate Hi - Coolant p****ing out from back of engine area landing around where the dustcap for the gearbox is
Climate Lo - Leak stops / very little
A/C off - Stops / very little

If this points to HBV - is it dealer only recommended?

Thanks

It does.  :y

Can't comment on pattern part as I've only ever bought genuine.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Shackeng on 19 July 2013, 19:56:18
This may help: http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1193594464/0  :y
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: omegod on 19 July 2013, 20:10:39
Def HBV, I have not had a problems with pattern hbv's but it's not a job you want to do twice, VX trade is about £40 for the part vs £15 pattern
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 19 July 2013, 21:55:11
Sounds like hbv to me. Dealer only IMO. Several posts here of pattern failing although not as common a failure as pattern sensors etc.

Could some of the lambda area water be from ac drains? They are either side of gear box. Just rearward of those two gear box bolts.

Keep a track of the last load of water that went in. Then next time use the same amount of coolant concentrate to keep it roughly mixed tight.


(Do I remember looking in the v of your engine for coolant leaks, at the Wycombe meet? Looked like mild oil cooler plate leak, did that get fixed? I guess it must have been or it would have failed big time before now? I seem to remember pressure testing it with The Groomer )
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 19 July 2013, 22:26:27
Indeed, HBV. I'd go dealer only personally.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 19 July 2013, 22:27:43
(I seem to remember pressure testing it with The Groomer )
You were t...   ...no, lets just no go there. Ever.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 19 July 2013, 22:29:06
(I seem to remember pressure testing it with The Groomer )
You were t...   ...no, lets just no go there. Ever.

No the engine you nutter. ;D
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 19 July 2013, 23:28:02
Yes at the Wycombe meet you gave it big breaths - to find the oil cooler plate needed resealing - this got done pronto by Loo Knee (+ thermostat). The small bit I could see showed no signs of leak there.

Have made a mental note of how much water has gone in :y. The amount of liquid that came out was more than water from the a/c.

First thing in the morning i'm calling the stealers to get hbv. I need the car to go to London on Friday to see Usain Bolt (+others run) amongst other things.

For those who have done this - is it scuttle off only, plenum off only or both and do I really need to drain the coolant -  it was changed about 6 weeks ago.

Classic quote from SWMBO (who drives this mostly) - the coolant warning message came on last week but I thought it was normal ???

Thanks Guys

Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 19 July 2013, 23:42:56
See if you can locate the leak first. It might be a hose. Also remember hot water pipes rarely show a leak easily as they are hot and the water evaporates off surprisingly quickly. Look for coolant coloured residue etc ;)

I tend to remove scuttle, plus yours needs re sealing, so now is a good time to get some gutter seal or similar laid around the metal scuttle drain to plastic scuttle join, along that edge with draft excluder, and maybe seal around the wiper spindle hole rubber/foam washers. Should be good for a while then. :)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 00:00:38
Thanks - I will try to get the hbv on sale or return (if maidenhead don't have one, slough normally do).

When I did the dispack I resealed the scuttle as you describe (plus some "magic tape") so will take off and reseal again. The plan is to take scuttle off, inspect pipes / hbv, run engine with a/c and inspect again - hopefully this should give the pointers. Then if need be remove plenum for further inspection/access if need be..... and I was planning to sort my garden decking out this weekend, but this takes priority.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Shackeng on 20 July 2013, 08:41:54
Yes at the Wycombe meet you gave it big breaths - to find the oil cooler plate needed resealing - this got done pronto by Loo Knee (+ thermostat). The small bit I could see showed no signs of leak there.

Have made a mental note of how much water has gone in :y. The amount of liquid that came out was more than water from the a/c.

First thing in the morning i'm calling the stealers to get hbv. I need the car to go to London on Friday to see Usain Bolt (+others run) amongst other things.

For those who have done this - is it scuttle off only, plenum off only or both and do I really need to drain the coolant -  it was changed about 6 weeks ago.

Classic quote from SWMBO (who drives this mostly) - the coolant warning message came on last week but I thought it was normal ???

Thanks Guys

According to the how to I posted above. Yes. :y
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 08:53:29
Thanks - part ordered on sale or return - picking up this morning.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2013, 09:57:11
Scuttle off is enough. Still a bit fiddly.

No need to drain coolant, but obviously your hands will get very wet. You will lose a load of coolant doing it. Worth picking up some coolant from dealer as well.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy H on 20 July 2013, 12:34:51
Changed mine last week.
Took the scuttle off but still couldn't get my hands in comfortably so I took the wiper mechanism out as well. It is held in by 4 bolts. The wiper arms have to come off to get the the scuttle off so it took about 2 minutes to get the mechanism out as well (after I had taken that apparently useless bracket out that screws to the bottom of the windscreen frame).

With enough space to work I was able to swap the HBVs one pipe at a time and I didn't lose any more coolant (the header tank was almost empty already though ::)).

If the header tank is still full then drain a few pints from the radiator drain (into a clean container) & pour it back in when finished :y
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 14:39:04
Thanks!
Got new hbv and coolant - will do in a bit ..... if I don't fall into an afternoon nap!

P.S. Andy I think you need to take your car out for a long drive to say..... Maidenhead, just to be sure its stopped leaking. There is liquid refreshment and indian food waiting for you :P
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy H on 20 July 2013, 16:03:03
I probably ought to mention that I used to really hate hose clips until I bought one of these
(http://www.ccw-tools.com/uploads/images_products_large/21871.jpg)

not sure I could have got the HBV done without it :-\

Maidenhead? tempting but not practical. Going to try to lay 100 blocks this weekend without getting sun stroke. An ice cold Cobra would suit me just fine right now  :) (but I wouldn't lay any blocks........... :()
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 19:02:19
LOL!! Sorry you have got the 2 bob bits :P

There is a leak from the bottom plastic pipe on hbv (the side which has two pipes - the connecting rubber pipe looks intact) and hbv is off but no cracks visible. Just wondered the bottom pipe on hbv (side which has 2 pipes) is hard to blow through and only very very little air travels - is this normal? Also this pipe has a little layer of dried coolant on the inside (the other 2 hbv pipes run blow through easy).

Is the fact that I cant really blow through the bottom pipe mean its knackered or is it supposed to be like that please?

P.S. Little bit tricky getting those clips off - couldn't find my mole grips so resorted to pliers!


Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2013, 20:35:58
get someone to suck on the small outlet on the very top, then see how easy it is ;)

Got the new one on ok?
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 20 July 2013, 21:08:50
It is a valve, so one or other is supposed to blocked, depending on the position if vac applied, or not.


Usually, the failure mode is, ime, a leak from the diaphragm disc shape bit in the top. Or along one of the moulded joins.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 20 July 2013, 21:10:42
One of my old posts

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=105900.0
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 21:18:29
Thanks, looks like internal damage is the likely culprit. As I could see no rubber pipe damage I am putting the new one on - two pipes and hose clips in place - last one to go - but it is as mentioned many times a bit fiddly - I want to get it connected tonight and test quickly and leave overnight with card under to see for drips..... if I can get the last one on!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 22:41:47
Put it back together and did a little test with no leaks - will check again tomorrow before resealing scuttle.

Thankyou to all who offered advice and support - without it I couldn't have got this far :y :y

I found my mole grips (too late now!)

Then my brake pad warning has come on.....and when I went indoors swmbo told me the dishwasher is broken. Another busy day tomorrow with a bit of painting due too!!

Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 20 July 2013, 22:43:51
Oh she noticed that was broken did she? ;D
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2013, 22:44:48
You may need to top up the coolant over the next couple of days of use, as there will now be small air pockets in the system that will work their way out...
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 20 July 2013, 23:04:53
Thanks, sorry I missed your post about sucking the top pipe. Will keep an eye on coolant level.

SWMBO noticed that all was not normal with the dishwasher in double quick time!! Now why is that not surprising ::) Happy holidaying Chris.

Thanks to Andy H for the wiper mechanism tip - I needed to take it out :y

I hear some members on here have small (and large air pockets that work there way out too!!!! It reminds me of the time when my little one was about 3 months old and I kid you not because I counted them, did 48 "pops" on the trot - that has to be a world record!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: sjc on 21 July 2013, 10:50:23
I can't get my hands down there without removing the wiper mechanism either.  Did you find you had to run the motor briefly to move the linkages so you could get at the top bolt?

Sounds like you've got it sorted.

My suspicion is that it's lack of use that makes these go faulty - i.e. they never move all winter and then when things hot up and the climate control decides to fully by-pass the heater matrix, suddenly you're operating a valve that's done nothing for months.  Just my suspicion, could be talking mince.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 21 July 2013, 13:47:30
I can't get my hands down there without removing the wiper mechanism either.  Did you find you had to run the motor briefly to move the linkages so you could get at the top bolt?

No, but see what you mean. Long 1/4" extension is weapon of choice to remove ime. Then tape the bolt to the socket to refit. Trying to remember if removing the other two bolts first helps...? :-\
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 22:22:06
No need to run motor for a bit and it doesn't make a difference if you undo the other 2.

I knew I should have taped the screw on refitting as it is now sitting where the oil cooler plate is >:( Might be able to retrieve if I had a long magnetic telescope thingy but I will try tomorrow. When trying to retrieve the screw I noticed an unplugged small grey electrical connector at the back of the engine - anyone know what this is? I have a photo and will try to post it up.

The hbv is in and tested again with no leaks so that is good.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 22:41:01
Picture of connector
(http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Radar_07/connector/connector_zpsbc98b8f4.png)][URL=http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Radar_07/media/connector/connector_zpsbc98b8f4.png.html](http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Radar_07/connector/connector_zpsbc98b8f4.png) (http://[URL=http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Radar_07/media/connector/connector_zpsbc98b8f4.png.html)[/url]

Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy B on 21 July 2013, 22:46:34
what colour is the wire? The temp (gauge) sensor uses a normal spade connector and that has a blue wire
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 22:49:46
It was black.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy B on 21 July 2013, 22:53:11
It was black.

Sorry ...... no idea then.  :-\
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 22:56:09
Thanks for the suggestion - was wondering if it had anything to do with the old crank sensor?
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: albitz on 21 July 2013, 23:10:50
Nothing to do with crank sensor.I cant think of anything apart from the temp gauge sensor which uses a spade connector. :-\
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy H on 21 July 2013, 23:13:17
No need to run motor for a bit and it doesn't make a difference if you undo the other 2.

I knew I should have taped the screw on refitting as it is now sitting where the oil cooler plate is >:( Might be able to retrieve if I had a long magnetic telescope thingy but I will try tomorrow. When trying to retrieve the screw I noticed an unplugged small grey electrical connector at the back of the engine - anyone know what this is? I have a photo and will try to post it up.

The hbv is in and tested again with no leaks so that is good.
Me too  :( (twice ::))
The first time it was still visible & I fished it out again. Not 10 seconds later I dropped it again and heard it clatter down somewhere near the coolant bridge. >:(
I took the plenum and upper manifold off and fished it out with a telescopic magnet.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy H on 21 July 2013, 23:15:49
what colour is the wire? The temp (gauge) sensor uses a normal spade connector and that has a blue wire
I think mine has some black sleeve over the blue wire to protect it. When you retrieve bolt number 4 you can clip it back on to the coolant temperature sensor.........
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 23:24:24
In the maintenance guide to change the coolant temp. sensor the 3rd pic down which has the cts arrowed, the thing to the left of it shows a connector - mine looks like that


(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/guides/v6_cts/IMAGEOFCTS_zpsdc0580fe.png)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Andy B on 21 July 2013, 23:32:58
... sensor the 3rd pic down which has the cts arrowed, the thing to the left of it shows a connector - mine looks like that


.......

I still think temp gauge sensor then  ;)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 21 July 2013, 23:45:16
Thankyou - you the man :y

Also when you replace the wiper linkage there is a black bracket which has 2 torx screws fixes to the bottom windscreen trin - does the fit over or under the linkage and should you put this on before the linkage goes back in?
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 22 July 2013, 00:02:58
Spade connector goes on the brass nipple next to the arrowed connector in the pic as Andy says. :y

Remove the bracket to remove and refit wiper mechanism.

And cover your wing with a rag or sumat in the area between bonet strut and Bonet hinge. It's VERY easy to scratch the wing otherwise. ;)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 22 July 2013, 00:12:29
Thanks - linkage is in already and I will fit the bracket tomorrow.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 23 July 2013, 10:33:03
All fitted - managed to sneak on cts clip without taking plenum off - it is easier to screw in the back wiper linage screw first.

Scuttle resealed just in time for the thunder storms last night - thanks again for everyones advice/support. :y :y
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: sjc on 23 July 2013, 11:05:24
Well done, sounds like you timed it well!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: 05omegav6 on 23 July 2013, 11:07:08
 :y
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 23 July 2013, 21:08:17
Just hope it doesn't spring a leak again!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: iansoutham on 25 July 2013, 13:55:39
One of the few things I like about having a 2.0.

Had to change mine Tuesday after work and disconnected the hoses from under the car using hose clip pliers (extended ones with the cable) and simply removed the pipes from above. Whole job took less than 15 minutes, plus time to flush and bleed the cooling system afterwards.

Only had to remove the brake servo vacuum pipe and the 2 thin vacuum tubes to get access on the top.
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: chrisgixer on 25 July 2013, 17:31:10
One of the few things I like about having a 2.0.

Had to change mine Tuesday after work and disconnected the hoses from under the car using hose clip pliers (extended ones with the cable) and simply removed the pipes from above. Whole job took less than 15 minutes, plus time to flush and bleed the cooling system afterwards.

Only had to remove the brake servo vacuum pipe and the 2 thin vacuum tubes to get access on the top.
Yeeeah, but us v engine owners get there so much quicker we can afford to take our time. ::) ;) ;D
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: tunnie on 25 July 2013, 17:34:14
One of the few things I like about having a 2.0.

Had to change mine Tuesday after work and disconnected the hoses from under the car using hose clip pliers (extended ones with the cable) and simply removed the pipes from above. Whole job took less than 15 minutes, plus time to flush and bleed the cooling system afterwards.

Only had to remove the brake servo vacuum pipe and the 2 thin vacuum tubes to get access on the top.

I have to agree, owning both a 3.2 and a 2.2, the 2.2 is just a joy to work on.

Although I must admit, being 4 up, the 3.2 still goes really, really well. 4 up in the 2.2, well thats a different story  ::)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 25 July 2013, 21:23:32
How do you get a 2.2 with 3.2 power :P - then it would be easier to work on!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: sjc on 25 July 2013, 21:43:09
Turbo it!
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: 05omegav6 on 27 July 2013, 16:15:17
How do you get a reliable 2.2 with consistent 3.2 power :P - then it would be easier to work on!

Fixed that for you :y

Turbo it!
Or fit one of theses...

 http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/supercharger-conversions/info_102.html  (http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/supercharger-conversions/info_102.html) ::)
Title: Re: COOLANT LOSS
Post by: Radar on 27 July 2013, 16:57:37
Sounds Good!