Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: PhilRich on 25 July 2013, 07:46:24
-
Appalling tragedy in NorthWestern Spain. The train derailed violently on a bend and the death toll is a reported 77 dead up to now! :'(
-
Very sad, reports saying the train was going to fast and over speed limit? :o :'(
-
Pretty bad.
I have just been looking at the details of the last big train accident here in Spain. Back in 1972 in Southern Spain. 86 dead and 112 injured. It is quite possible that the current death toll will match that.
-
Death toll has double since last night. They had the bodies layed out on the track, barely covered by what they could find laying around. Twisted carriages piled up.
Horrific scene.
-
The inference thus far is that the train was traveling at greater than the 80km limit for the bend and juction over which it was crossing and left the track. The OTMR will tell all!
-
And how! News reports were saying 190 km/h!
Then again, they're always completely accurate. ::)
-
The line speed before the junction is 180km/h.....but did he slow down.
-
Some interesting stuff on the Spanish newspaper El Pais in English website including driver comment.
http://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html
-
Traveling a little quick I would say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32nxuHshv4&feature=youtu.be
-
It's funny how witnesses report things isn't it. Several reported a loud explosion prior to the crash.
When clearly, the noise was the crash taking place, as they hadn't yet seen what was happening.
-
Either way, no doubt over the cause of the accident being speed (flat curve track with no camber so low speed require to traverse the corner), question is driver error or brake failure (I dont buy the latter as the regen brake setup would slow it pretty effectively even if the friction setup failed plus the brake systems are fail safe).
-
It looks like it could have been off the tracks before its in shot. Looking at the carriage directly behind the engine...?
-
Possibly but those trains are a funny shape and have a high spot on the 'loco' connecting coaches so it might be deceiving.
The coaches will come off first as they are lighter, then the rear heavier 'loco' with its inertia crumples them up and forces them forward.
-
Freeze frame snap shot. It looks like the first carriage is already in trouble to me. No?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/1CB92B22-5B6C-4DD2-B56D-B28465CCDD3B-38974-0000111F182DDDAE_zps13ffd3c2.jpg)
-
It's lower than the engine at the front. Just to be clear what I'm on about.
Although its difficult to tell the extent if the curve from that low angle.
-
Either way, holy cow :o :o :o :'( :'( :'(
-
I wonder if the driver suffered a medical condition :(
-
Its one of these types (I suspect its the hybrid one as there is clearly an MTU diesel engine in one of the shots).
http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/nuestros_trenes/alvia_s130.html
As you can see the coach roof lowers which makes it appear like its off the rails
-
I wonder if the driver suffered a medical condition :(
He will do when hes banged up in a spanish prison for a bit
-
It's lower than the engine at the front. Just to be clear what I'm on about.
Although its difficult to tell the extent if the curve from that low angle.
you could well be right as it does look that way,as said shocking :'( :'(
-
Freeze frame snap shot. It looks like the first carriage is already in trouble to me. No?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/1CB92B22-5B6C-4DD2-B56D-B28465CCDD3B-38974-0000111F182DDDAE_zps13ffd3c2.jpg)
Does look that way, you can see the gap after the power car, that said they are quite odd looking even close up:
(http://www.raileurope.com/cms-images/325/1001/R0139D-004.jpg)
-
Ah, here we go, one of the hybrids
(http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7207/6790104896_f311f4ef0e.jpg)
-
Note the extra diesel power car module :y
-
I see :y
So that extra unit is diesel, which generates the electric to drive the other 2 power cars?
Assume that's aimed for use in areas without over-head wires? :-\
-
I see :y
So that extra unit is diesel, which generates the electric to drive the other 2 power cars?
Assume that's aimed for use in areas without over-head wires? :-\
Yep, means they can go over all routes and there is one at each end
Clearly in this case its on OHLE
-
Very sad :'( Sure was some speed
-
How long before auto speed reduction devices are fitted to trains to overide the driver given the speed limit for a given piece of track and GPS etc.?
-
It's lower than the engine at the front. Just to be clear what I'm on about.
Although its difficult to tell the extent if the curve from that low angle.
Freeze frame it just as the rear loco comes into view and that end looks the same with the step; though I thought the same as you at first, it took a few goes through before I realised the tail end had an identical step. Which makes sense given what Mark has posted.
-
Yeah see what you mean. But I don't know, something's not right, it looks.... Out of alignment to me. :-\
Although its clearly doing more than 80k if that's real time.
Good god. Imagine being a passenger on that.
-
Bbc news just showed that video, partly ::) along with a higher up shot of the track further round the bend. It exits a tunnel, turns, goes under the road bridge, then appears in the video.
So unless something fell off the road bridge onto the track that didnt derail the engine but did the carriages, it looks difficult to conclude not speed related going by that.
Driver comments do not suggest a health issue.
-
How long before auto speed reduction devices are fitted to trains to overide the driver given the speed limit for a given piece of track and GPS etc.?
The modern signaling system does have it (including the UK), Spain has the potential to use it and Portugal do use it but I understand the Spanish dont enable it.
GPS is not used (its not reliable enough), the modern setup uses track side beacons for telemetry (e.g. GSMR)
-
The best way to see whn it derails is to watch the lower coach line just above the rails.
Note also how once the coach leaves the track, the loco is pulled over.
-
So the heavier engine could have taken the bend? But the lighter carriages flew off.
-
So the heavier engine could have taken the bend? But the lighter carriages flew off.
Possibly, its clear that the locomotive made it around the radius yet the coaches came off only a short distance in.
The locos will be very heavy (probably around 100 tons) with weight pretty low down (traction motors being just above rail level). Compare it to a light weight coach
-
These are the trains for info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RENFE_Class_730#Hybrid_train_S130H_.2F_S730
with this being the Class 730 (the hydrib version of the 130).
Note the loco axle weight of max 18ton per axle, 4 axles on the power car and then only one on each coach interconnection, gives an idea of difference in weight.
-
Also note the power cars have both regenerative and resistive brakes plus pneumatic brakes everywhere.
Loco brakes are independent of the train brake setup so we can rule a failure out there with reasonable confidence
-
How long before auto speed reduction devices are fitted to trains to overide the driver given the speed limit for a given piece of track and GPS etc.?
The modern signaling system does have it (including the UK), Spain has the potential to use it and Portugal do use it but I understand the Spanish dont enable it.
GPS is not used (its not reliable enough), the modern setup uses track side beacons for telemetry (e.g. GSMR)
Mark. Is that ERTMS?
-
I am informed that ERTMS is not in use but ASFA is (similar ish to our TMPS).
This system can drop the brake when overspeed is detected but the info is that this is not enabled in Spain. (although this should only be a fail safe not the first line of defence)
-
This is bad, very bad :'( :'( :'(
However, whenever I see the results of such a crash today it only goes to remind me of how wonderful modern coaching stock is for it's design ability to survive such high speed crashes intact. Even just 60 years ago the coaching stock in such a crash, if it could even reach the speeds of this train, would disintegrate, especially once it came into contact with track side structures. Now, as horrific as it must have been for all involved, the coaches stayed intact and "the bodies" would have been thrown around internally, not externally as in past decades. You then have to ask why wearing a seat belt is not compulsory in such trains, even if they were fitted that I do not believe they are in any of these high speed trains. You wonder why! ::) ::) ::)
-
It's ok, this would never happen if HS2 goes ahead :-X
-
It's ok, this would never happen if HS2 goes ahead :-X
No corners, it is only going a few miles from London to Birmingham.
-
and as already highlighted, our trains auto-brake if speed is too fast for section of track :)
-
Actually if you look at all our serious train accidents, they have all been track related. Think there was one case of a driver running a red, then a HST ploughed through middle of it. But I think since then ATP is across everything? :-\
-
Actually if you look at all our serious train accidents, they have all been track related. Think there was one case of a driver running a red, then a HST ploughed through middle of it. But I think since then ATP is across everything? :-\
Oh there have been plenty of slightly lesser ones that are driver related!
Even a case where a freight train driver took his usual nap, he used to put the power handle into a certain position at a certain signal and get 5-10 mins sleep knowing the train would continue up the hill and over the top.
Trouble is he did it a signal to early and the freight train did not make it up the hill, it started to roll backwards straight into the front of another train.
But yes, the signaling system is vastly improved and will continue to get a LOT better.
-
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/164535-train-derailment-3.html
Some interesting comment and info from Whitenoiz for those interested in more background.
e.g. the second car in the train has a higher CoG than the first.
-
And now there is another one
http://news.sky.com/story/1121900/swiss-train-crash-44-passengers-injured
-
Driver talkiing on phone by the look of it.
-
Driver talkiing on phone by the look of it.
Spanish one that is, not Swiss
-
Looks like he was on the phone, but it was the Spanish Train Operator that called him. They wanted him to consult a document on the on-going route, so for me it looks like he was distracted by this and simply forgot how close he was to this sharp turn.
-
I keep hearing this bull shit train design fault rubbish, it was going at over 200% the rated line speed. Given that, one of the vehicle types is going to topple first (obviously) and hence the I'll informed will point the finger at the 'design'.
Bottom line, phone or not the driver is responsible for their train and he was going much to fast. These people get paid well for the responsibility and he now has to live with the consequences of his actions
-
I keep hearing this bull shit train design fault rubbish, it was going at over 200% the rated line speed. Given that, one of the vehicle types is going to topple first (obviously) and hence the I'll informed will point the finger at the 'design'.
Bottom line, phone or not the driver is responsible for their train and he was going much to fast. These people get paid well for the responsibility and he now has to live with the consequences of his actions
Hear Hear!
If he knew about the overspeed (and it's difficult to imagine how he wouldn't if he was competent), then his attention should have been focussed 100% on slowing the train by whatever methods he had at his disposal. The phone call to head office could have waited!
How a train responds to a 200% overspeed is irrelevant. It's an area of its operating envelope it should never have been allowed to enter by its' driver!
-
<devils advocate>
I'm sure some people would argue that such systems should be designed to be idiot proof (therefore it's a design flaw).. the trouble is, someone always designs a bigger idiot.
</devils advocate>
-
<devils advocate>
I'm sure some people would argue that such systems should be designed to be idiot proof (therefore it's a design flaw).. the trouble is, someone always designs a bigger idiot.
</devils advocate>
The Airbus philosophy.. The system actually generates its' own "bigger idiots" because it won't actually let them drive any more!
Yes, it seems odd to me that the train didn't have a system that acts to protect the train from an overspeed. Then again, it seems odd to me that train crashes can happen at all, and that they still have human drivers.
-
Yes, it seems odd to me that the train didn't have a system that acts to protect the train from an overspeed. Then again, it seems odd to me that train crashes can happen at all, and that they still have human drivers.
I've always wondered why a system like that wasn't 100% automated .. but then again, the concept also scares the wotsit out of me as I don't know which is worse; an undiscovered bug in some piece of code that causes a terrible accident, or a driver (essentially) asleep at the wheel..
Although the rail loop at Seattle airport is 100% computerised, I believe. Easy to do when it's a tiny closed system, I suppose..
-
Its like when the TFL drivers here start bashing on about safety if drivers are removed, they want it all to sound like the tube is doomed without them.
But the Docklands Light Railway has been doing it perfectly well for several decades now, I always want to point out every time TFL drivers go on strike, thats another reason for full automation ::)
-
Its like when the TFL drivers here start bashing on about safety if drivers are removed, they want it all to sound like the tube is doomed without them.
But the Docklands Light Railway has been doing it perfectly well for several decades now, I always want to point out every time TFL drivers go on strike, thats another reason for full automation ::)
Especially considering there massive salary they receive for doing very little it would seem. I have an aquaintence who is a tube driver. And yes he commutes from down here. Last I heard he gets free train travel to and from London for work as well. How many of us would like free travel to work ?
-
There's a thought...
Given the double expense of paying off all the RMT members and fully automating the entire rail network, how long would the efficiency savings take to recover the cost?
Just asking... :y
-
Its like when the TFL drivers here start bashing on about safety if drivers are removed, they want it all to sound like the tube is doomed without them.
But the Docklands Light Railway has been doing it perfectly well for several decades now, I always want to point out every time TFL drivers go on strike, thats another reason for full automation ::)
Especially considering there massive salary they receive for doing very little it would seem. I have an aquaintence who is a tube driver. And yes he commutes from down here. Last I heard he gets free train travel to and from London for work as well. How many of us would like free travel to work ?
Mine is free, for now at least :)