Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Lazydocker on 13 October 2013, 23:40:49
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After the big suspension marathon yesterday we discovered the S/L wasn't working :'(
Anyway... Changed compressor over today and it's firing up briefly. Now got a sensor code. I assume the only one is the one on the rear axle?
I'll change that tomorrow but here's the thing... I powered up the compressor manually and the suspension didn't seem to rise :-\
Other question... Where does the rubber pipe that connects to the pump unit twice and goes up towards the headlamp go and what does it do?
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Is the newly fitted pump known to be good?
I suppose now he's cleared off we can't ask the previous owner either. ::)
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Only one sensor afaik btw.
Are the air lines to shocks secure, they seemed ok when I fitted them but it was a long day. Any hissing?
If its calling for air but not rising would that throw a sensor fault? Air leak for example?
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A couple of daft questions...or three ::)
1. is the sensor plugged in?
2. it is the sensor inboard of the drivers side rear wheel?
3. have you checked the fuse/relay under the steering column?
:-\
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A couple of daft questions...or three ::)
1. is the sensor plugged in?
2. it is the sensor inboard of the drivers side rear wheel?
3. have you checked the fuse/relay under the steering column?
:-\
Yes
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Ps check the integrity of the loom by the plug to sensor. It might of got trapped or something daft, given the work done. I did notice the plug wasn't clipped up properly.
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Going over to the unit again shortly to check/swap the sensor from the other car.
Pump is known to be good, and no hissing... All air lines seem to be intact. I will check the sensor wiring later. Strange thing is even running pump manually it doesn't seem to be raiding suspension but I wonder if it is venting automatically because of the sensor fault :-\
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Is it worth releasing the feed pipe to each shock? As that would confirm air pressure is there, would also allow the suspension to lower. Easier to see it rise if you manually activate the pump again?
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Shocks are brand spankers and don't seem to be taking air so I am assuming it's venting.
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The thicker rubber tubbing on the compressor is prone to going brittle and splitting.
Worth checking its sound..I ended up replumbing the bits of pump piework with new rubber fuel line to ensure all air tight.Pump should product good flow of air with the shocks feed pipe disconnected if its working ok..then just a matter of checking all the thin pipes and joints at rear .
1 section of pipework from pump clips up above head light and is the open vent pipe.Other bits are valve to pump and are connected
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my 3.0 elite has self leveling but have never noticed it in action, also when I tow the racing car it goes down at the rear pretty much the same as my previous non SL Omega would do when towing.
Its had recent new s/l shocks from Vaux in 2011 maybe its not functioning? How can you tell when the SL suspension is working?
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Just after switching on the ignition you should hear the S/L pump starting up.Its a small compressor situated behind the o/s front wing if you want to have a listen.
Visible here with the wing removed.
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Albs59/DSCF1668.jpg) (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/Albs59/media/DSCF1668.jpg.html)
If that's working the other likely potential problem areas are an airleak between pump and shocks,level sensor not working,or problems with the shocks themselves.
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my 3.0 elite has self leveling but have never noticed it in action, also when I tow the racing car it goes down at the rear pretty much the same as my previous non SL Omega would do when towing.
Its had recent new s/l shocks from Vaux in 2011 maybe its not functioning? How can you tell when the SL suspension is working?
That's not right, there's a problem somewhere.
There is a guide in maintenance re tesingt self levelling.
It should maintain the ride height at all times.
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thanks for the replies will need to check it out and see
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If the pump isn't working start with the simple stuff like fuses,connectors etc.and then delve further. ;)
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Fuse 27, also runs the rear cig lighter.
Relay, one of the two small black ones at the top of the fuse box under steering wheel. Tother is high beam, so pull one, if the high beam still works, you know you have the sl relay in your hand. :)
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Post 1998 Self Levelling ECUs are diagnosable. Thus provide live data into what it is trying to do.
Thats where to start.
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So... It pumps ok now with a new sensor but only enough to get the correct ride height... Pushing the sensor arm right up doesn't raise the suspension any more. Is it possible the pump is getting a bit asthmatic?
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
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Had written a nice long essay, but phone tinterweb has been playing silly buggers ::)
But basically, my suggestions yesterday were about ruling out the blindingly obvious, but often overlooked things :y
Ps check the integrity of the loom by the plug to sensor. It might of got trapped or something daft, given the work done. I did notice the plug wasn't clipped up properly.
Not sure where the loom might have gotten trapped tbh. iirc, it enters the car beneath the rear seat base :-\
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
Did you prime the shocks when you fitted them, 1 Bar from an air line ottomh :y
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
What do you mean, can't get to it? Your kit won't communicate with ECU? Thats not a good sign, and may indicate an ECU that isn't entirely functional?
TBH, with this system, without ECU diagnostics, you're pretty much pissing in the wind in a force 9, which GM learnt quite quickly, thus added functionality from 1998 onwards.
The donor ECU is post 1998, isn't it?
Failing all that, I'd remove the levelling relay, and measure what is coming out of the ECU there (as its a convenient location).
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
Did you prime the shocks when you fitted them, 1 Bar from an air line ottomh :y
We had no air line available but I have pressed a tyre inflator (12V jobbie) against them today and the bladders visibly inflated :y
The pump has inflated the bladders sufficiently to obtain correct height and hold air, just not enough to get the car to rise over standard height
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
What do you mean, can't get to it? Your kit won't communicate with ECU? Thats not a good sign, and may indicate an ECU that isn't entirely functional?
TBH, with this system, without ECU diagnostics, you're pretty much pissing in the wind in a force 9, which GM learnt quite quickly, thus added functionality from 1998 onwards.
The donor ECU is post 1998, isn't it?
Failing all that, I'd remove the levelling relay, and measure what is coming out of the ECU there (as its a convenient location).
Am I right in recalling the ECU is in the sensor assembly? Donor parts have come from a 2001
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
Did you prime the shocks when you fitted them, 1 Bar from an air line ottomh :y
We had no air line available but I have pressed a tyre inflator (12V jobbie) against them today and the bladders visibly inflated :y
The pump has inflated the bladders sufficiently to obtain correct height and hold air, just not enough to get the car to rise over standard height
Jack the car up so the rear wheels are off the floor, pop the pipes off, reinflate with the tyre pump until the bladders swell, reconnect hoses and lower the car.
At this point it should be at full height, switch on the ignition and let the system do its thing...
If that doesn't produce the desired effect, summat else is amiss :y
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Done and still not rising... Obviously as soon as you remove the pump the bladders let all the air out though ;)
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What does live data say about the sensor at various different heights?
Can't get it. But the sensor is working, the pump is pumping... Just no car risey :'(
What do you mean, can't get to it? Your kit won't communicate with ECU? Thats not a good sign, and may indicate an ECU that isn't entirely functional?
TBH, with this system, without ECU diagnostics, you're pretty much pissing in the wind in a force 9, which GM learnt quite quickly, thus added functionality from 1998 onwards.
The donor ECU is post 1998, isn't it?
Failing all that, I'd remove the levelling relay, and measure what is coming out of the ECU there (as its a convenient location).
Am I right in recalling the ECU is in the sensor assembly? Donor parts have come from a 2001
yes
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Done and still not rising... Obviously as soon as you remove the pump the bladders let all the air out though ;)
You have to be pretty quick fingered ;D
Have you tried adjusting the sensor arm :-\
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
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Done and still not rising... Obviously as soon as you remove the pump the bladders let all the air out though ;)
You have to be pretty quick fingered ;D
Have you tried adjusting the sensor arm :-\
Disconnecting and raising the sensor arm to maximum, should see the sl top out, rise fully. What's happening is;
Raise arm.
Pump runs, continually.
The bladders inflate. Pump still running.
But the car stops rising beyond a cirtain point broadly similar to the normal ride height or doesn't rise at all above the natural level of the springs. Pump still running, and so on.
The car never rises.
Some air is being pumped, bit not enough.
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
Any thoughts?
Pump still running btw. ;)
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LD tells me there is no hissing, or any sign of a leak.
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Assuming standard springs, I would agree with...
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
:y
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Assuming standard springs, I would agree with...
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
:y
LD tells me there is no hissing, or any sign of a leak.
True... No sign of a leak anywhere.
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Assuming standard springs, I would agree with...
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
:y
Yes... On standard, not S/L springs
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If the pump can be dismantled easily enough, then it could be refurbished :-\ might be as daft as a tired diaphragm :y
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If the pump can be dismantled easily enough, then it could be refurbished :-\ might be as daft as a tired diaphragm :y
I might try to dissect the old one, although that one is properly knackered... Casing on motor fractured :o
I wonder if I can make one good from the two :-\
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If the replacement is on its way out then you've nowt to lose :y
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If the replacement is on its way out then you've nowt to lose :y
Think I'll get a replacement one as I must have a useable car :y Then have a look for repairing the other car ::)
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
Yeah. You were pissing around with Irmscher springs and SL shocks IIRC, and we were trying to reset the SL height.
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
Yeah. You were pissing around with Irmscher springs and SL shocks IIRC, and we were trying to reset the SL height.
What was the outcome?
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Done and still not rising... Obviously as soon as you remove the pump the bladders let all the air out though ;)
You have to be pretty quick fingered ;D
Have you tried adjusting the sensor arm :-\
Disconnecting and raising the sensor arm to maximum, should see the sl top out, rise fully. What's happening is;
Raise arm.
Pump runs, continually.
The bladders inflate. Pump still running.
But the car stops rising beyond a cirtain point broadly similar to the normal ride height or doesn't rise at all above the natural level of the springs. Pump still running, and so on.
The car never rises.
Some air is being pumped, bit not enough.
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
Any thoughts?
Pump still running btw. ;)
Ah, if pump running, but no more uppy uppy, either:
Faulty shocks
No (more) air from pump
Air not getting to shocks
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
Yeah. You were pissing around with Irmscher springs and SL shocks IIRC, and we were trying to reset the SL height.
What was the outcome?
Wanky idea
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Done and still not rising... Obviously as soon as you remove the pump the bladders let all the air out though ;)
You have to be pretty quick fingered ;D
Have you tried adjusting the sensor arm :-\
Disconnecting and raising the sensor arm to maximum, should see the sl top out, rise fully. What's happening is;
Raise arm.
Pump runs, continually.
The bladders inflate. Pump still running.
But the car stops rising beyond a cirtain point broadly similar to the normal ride height or doesn't rise at all above the natural level of the springs. Pump still running, and so on.
The car never rises.
Some air is being pumped, bit not enough.
Conclude, asthmatic/tired pump. Replace with a known good one.
Any thoughts?
Pump still running btw. ;)
Ah, if pump running, but no more uppy uppy, either:
Faulty shocks
No (more) air from pump
Air not getting to shocks
I was about to say the shocks are brand new, so not faulty. But...
When I cut the bands in the shocks they didn't extend. The bladders had had stuck to the shock body. Paint still wet on assembly sort of thing.
For the shocks to be faulty due to that issue, they would have to have torn the bladder material.
But LD tells me by phone, there are no leaks, not signified by any audible hissing at least.
If air was escaping there would be a hiss, and or, the bladders would deflate once the pump turned off. Depending on any one valves of course, if there are any?
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Air lines could be partially blocked I guess, but iirc he's had the air lines off the shocks?
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
Yeah. You were pissing around with Irmscher springs and SL shocks IIRC, and we were trying to reset the SL height.
What was the outcome?
Wanky idea
Outcome was no communication I thought? Tried the setup procedure, but communication broke down. We never completed the procedure anyway, as it seemed to calibrate itself.
Later outcome was, bin sl shocks due to poor damping. So it was a waste of time anyway.
Didn't Kevin play with my sl at Newent for another member..? He had a dodgy sensor in the end, so Kev may have got through to it...?
Decent tech 2 driver you see. ;) ;D
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Sooooo... Was the general thought that I need another pump? ???
Thinking about it, there is an occasional, historic code about intake air accumulator fault :-\
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Sooooo... Was the general thought that I need another pump? ???
Thinking about it, there is an occasional, historic code about intake air accumulator fault :-\
:y
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Tech 2 would not communicate with my 03 SL ecu. :(
I know my old tech2 spoke to your ecu before, so whats changed?
No, it really didn't. The black one?
Yeah. You were pissing around with Irmscher springs and SL shocks IIRC, and we were trying to reset the SL height.
What was the outcome?
Wanky idea
Outcome was no communication I thought? Tried the setup procedure, but communication broke down. We never completed the procedure anyway, as it seemed to calibrate itself.
Later outcome was, bin sl shocks due to poor damping. So it was a waste of time anyway.
Didn't Kevin play with my sl at Newent for another member..? He had a dodgy sensor in the end, so Kev may have got through to it...?
Decent tech 2 driver you see. ;) ;D
Nope, we had comes, we just couldn't reset it that low - "Calibration failed" iirc.
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Sooooo... Was the general thought that I need another pump? ???
Thinking about it, there is an occasional, historic code about intake air accumulator fault :-\
Ignore that, its 'dangle berries' anyway.
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Sooooo... Was the general thought that I need another pump? ???
Thinking about it, there is an occasional, historic code about intake air accumulator fault :-\
Haven't you swapped that pump yet? ::) :P
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Sooooo... Was the general thought that I need another pump? ???
Thinking about it, there is an occasional, historic code about intake air accumulator fault :-\
Haven't you swapped that pump yet? ::) :P
Pump and sensor swapped ;)
Looks like I'm swapping the pump again ::)
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check wires under rear seat squab :y mine would go up---then stay that way----it was multi plugs under rear seat :y
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Hmm.... Curious ::)
Got another pump from Albs (although it's not been fitted) and compared the air output from that to the one on the car and they are the same. Tried pumping the shocks up again and got to 1 BAR as suggested but still no risey.
The sensor will call for air and the pump will run but no risey risey. :-\ :-\
There's definitely good air flow and pressure at the shocks and no leaks. It rises to the standard height and then wont go up any more :-\ :-\
Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
Incidentally, it also put the tyre inflater onto a shock on the other car and that didn't rise with 1 BAR either :-\
I also got a bit "angry" with my old pump and did some delicate disassembly to see what's inside ::) Anyone want pics?
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Pics can't hurt.
I wonder are the bladders stuck to the shock body?
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Hmm.... Curious ::)
Got another pump from Albs (although it's not been fitted) and compared the air output from that to the one on the car and they are the same. Tried pumping the shocks up again and got to 1 BAR as suggested but still no risey.
The sensor will call for air and the pump will run but no risey risey. :-\ :-\
There's definitely good air flow and pressure at the shocks and no leaks. It rises to the standard height and then wont go up any more :-\ :-\
Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
Incidentally, it also put the tyre inflater onto a shock on the other car and that didn't rise with 1 BAR either :-\
I also got a bit "angry" with my old pump and did some delicate disassembly to see what's inside ::) Anyone want pics?
Dunno if it makes any odds but the ride levellers on my 406 need 1 bar when empty just to keep the bladders from rubbing,to actually raise the back (and its a light car) needs close on 2 bar of pressure(using the onboard pressure gauge)
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Pics can't hurt.
I wonder are the bladders stuck to the shock body?
Definitely not... Had air in them and they expand nicely ;)
Oh... And I'll take some pics later
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Hmmm not so sure, in an Estate, with lpg. But needs must.
I'd wip a shock out and see of it extends fully.
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
Anyway... I still don't understand why ::)
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Hmmm not so sure, in an Estate, with lpg. But needs must.
I'd wip a shock out and see of it extends fully.
Extends happily when the car is jacked up
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
What springs are you using?
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
What springs are you using?
Standard (not S/L) With the weight of the LPG tank so far behind the axle I can't lower it (although I have a pair of Irmy) as it has already dropped. Fitted standard springs (as I did in my saloon) to firm it up a little :y
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For the shock to extend, the bladders have to peal away from the shock at the bottom. If the paint has stuck to the bladders further up , as was slightly evident when fitted, then that might overcome 1bar. (Might :-\)
Its cheaper than b4,s to check. Although possibly not with your spine currently. Undo the bottom bolt and see if the shock extends, via the pump, and or, by physically pulling the body down.
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For the shock to extend, the bladders have to peal away from the shock at the bottom. If the paint has stuck to the bladders further up , as was slightly evident when fitted, then that might overcome 1bar. (Might :-\)
Its cheaper than b4,s to check. Although possibly not with your spine currently. Undo the bottom bolt and see if the shock extends, via the pump, and or, by physically pulling the body down.
I hope it's easier than last time :o :o :D
On the plus side, I'm getting good at taking the front bumper off and on ::)
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
What springs are you using?
Standard (not S/L) With the weight of the LPG tank so far behind the axle I can't lower it (although I have a pair of Irmy) as it has already dropped. Fitted standard springs (as I did in my saloon) to firm it up a little :y
We put spring assistors on Mrs VXL's Estate - Standard springs with KYB shocks, though any shocks I replace now I would only use B4's.
That combination does a good job of keeping a 1200Kg caravan + all the junk nice and level.
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
What springs are you using?
Standard (not S/L) With the weight of the LPG tank so far behind the axle I can't lower it (although I have a pair of Irmy) as it has already dropped. Fitted standard springs (as I did in my saloon) to firm it up a little :y
We put spring assistors on Mrs VXL's Estate - Standard springs with KYB shocks, though any shocks I replace now I would only use B4's.
That combination does a good job of keeping a 1200Kg caravan + all the junk nice and level.
Which assisters did you use? It's tempting to do it... I'd rather have the better damping for the majority of the time when I'm solo ::)
I wonder if I can get my money back on the brand spanking new S/L Shocks ::)
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Might just bin it and fit a set of B4 shocks and spring assisters ::) ::)
You know it makes sense.
Trouble is, I do have to tow with it quite often and intend to use the Pikey box more next year with the little one :-\ :-\
What springs are you using?
Standard (not S/L) With the weight of the LPG tank so far behind the axle I can't lower it (although I have a pair of Irmy) as it has already dropped. Fitted standard springs (as I did in my saloon) to firm it up a little :y
We put spring assistors on Mrs VXL's Estate - Standard springs with KYB shocks, though any shocks I replace now I would only use B4's.
That combination does a good job of keeping a 1200Kg caravan + all the junk nice and level.
Which assisters did you use? It's tempting to do it... I'd rather have the better damping for the majority of the time when I'm solo ::)
I wonder if I can get my money back on the brand spanking new S/L Shocks ::)
Bought them from Towequipe in Nuneaton, but looking on their site it looks like they no longer supply them for the Omega. Looking on the Internet it seems other places still supply them.
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Plod rear springs perhaps :-\
Someone was/is breaking one iirc...
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For the shock to extend, the bladders have to peal away from the shock at the bottom. If the paint has stuck to the bladders further up , as was slightly evident when fitted, then that might overcome 1bar. (Might :-\)
Its cheaper than b4,s to check. Although possibly not with your spine currently. Undo the bottom bolt and see if the shock extends, via the pump, and or, by physically pulling the body down.
I hope it's easier than last time :o :o :D
On the plus side, I'm getting good at taking the front bumper off and on ::)
It certainly can't possibly be any worse. ::)
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Can someone with fully functioning S/L suspension check something for me please?
When the pump runs, is there air felt coming out of the little hose that runs up and is clipped to the o/s headlamp?
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Will have a rummage on the way out of the door, but don't recall seeing a pipe anywhere near the headlight recently :-\ that said, my slam/front panel has been replaced :-\
Thinking about it, if that's about 10mm diameter, isn't it the pressure relief valve :-\ in which case, there should only be air coming out when a loaded car is unloaded, and then only once the ignition is switched on...
Think you might have found your problem :-\
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Yep, IIRC the pipe is the exhaust from the relief valve, so maybe that valve is not sealing?
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Where's the PRV? It seems to be an exhaust from the pump
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Where's the PRV? It seems to be an exhaust from the pump
The solenoid valve that relieves pressure from the shocks when the ECU decides the car is too high. ;)
The pump exhausts into the shocks. it just has an air intake exposed at the front of the car.
When you are testing the pump, is the levelling ECU still connected? Just wondering if it's opening the relief valve as the car starts to rise? Failing that, the valve is leaky and causing the pressure in the system to leak away. Not sure if it can be stripped down and cleaned / checked. Might be worth a try?
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Where's the PRV? It seems to be an exhaust from the pump
The solenoid valve that relieves pressure from the shocks when the ECU decides the car is too high. ;)
The pump exhausts into the shocks. it just has an air intake exposed at the front of the car.
When you are testing the pump, is the levelling ECU still connected? Just wondering if it's opening the relief valve as the car starts to rise? Failing that, the valve is leaky and causing the pressure in the system to leak away. Not sure if it can be stripped down and cleaned / checked. Might be worth a try?
After demolishing a knackered one I'm not so sure what's what Kevin. I have 2 pumps giving identical symptoms.
I suppose it could be sensor related :-\ Although that's been changed too... I have another one now so could try it I suppose
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Oh... And I know What it is... I asked where it was ;)
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Can someone with fully functioning S/L suspension check something for me please?
When the pump runs, is there air felt coming out of the little hose that runs up and is clipped to the o/s headlamp?
Got some fiddling to do with the car today. Do you still need answers to this?
Ans.... Purely for test purposes, would blocking the vent pipe see the additional pressure go to the rear? (And see the car rise)
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Can someone with fully functioning S/L suspension check something for me please?
When the pump runs, is there air felt coming out of the little hose that runs up and is clipped to the o/s headlamp?
Got some fiddling to do with the car today. Do you still need answers to this?
Ans.... Purely for test purposes, would blocking the vent pipe see the additional pressure go to the rear? (And see the car rise)
Yes please and tried that
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My pump runs, but no air output.
If Nyone is feeling generous...
I think the pump vent is this pipe. LD needs to know if it also blows air as well as pumping air to the shocks. I believe.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/789E4A78-093D-4981-9839-844BCF1007B7-891-0000001FFA1C8AB1_zps47868cff.jpg)
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( If i have this correct....It's the one clipped to the edge of the slam panel, by the rusty torx bolt holding the plastic rad cover, with white writing on. I can't confirm as my pump is faulty )
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I'll have another rummage, but I'll be boggered if I can remember where I reattached it when I replaced that panel :-\
Think the air intake is on the pump body...
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That's the one Chris :y
The pump has 3 nipples... 2 of them link through a Tee piece and that terminates where Chris has pictured. Th third is the output to the shocks, after going through some sort of chamber.
For info, the pump is actually a little piston driven by the electric motor. I will take pictures next time I go to my unit :y
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That implies two valves, one for pump overpressure, the one that has presumably failed, and one for system release following switch on after unloading.
Guess the first is a simple mechanical valve, and the second controlled by the ecu and switched by the load level sensor :-\
Can't see it being an intake tbh...
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That implies two valves, one for pump overpressure, the one that has presumably failed, and one for system release following switch on after unloading.
Guess the first is a simple mechanical valve, and the second controlled by the ecu and switched by the load level sensor :-\
Can't see it being an intake tbh...
Not sure... I assume one is for pressure relief (if over height) but the other appears to be to release the air generated on the down stroke of the piston, judging from the layout/position :-\
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If you can post/find some images of the pump it might help. I remember it being reasonably easy to identify the components last time I had one in my hand, but having an MV6... ::)
One pipe could be the pump inlet, or a breather from the crank chamber of the pump. Can't remember, but it may have had a foam filter over the intake, though. :-\
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Just had a brainwave...it's ok, I'm sitting down :y
System fitted was from an estate wasn't it? Obviously the shocks are estate ones as not interchangeable but a saloon ecu would expect a different range from a saloon to an estate due to the differing rear axle weights...
No mention of an ECU in the wiring for the self levelling (Haynes) which makes the wiring look pretty fool proof.
The sensor switching a relay to control the pump/valve unit, with a speed signal feed to shut of the pump. What happens between connections X20 and X21 is anyones guess :-\
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To rule it out, remove the white wire from the pump plug, :y then use the sensor to run the pump. If the car rises, then there's something wrong with the check valve circuit, either the wire itself or the sensor :y
There should only be four wires to the pump...
1. RT red +12v permanent. From Fuse 27. Pin C on plug.
2. SW black +12v switched. From Fuse 15, via relay. Pin B on plug.
3. BR brown 0v ground. Pin D on plug.
4. WS white. From K21 Sensor-car level control. Pin A on plug.
:y
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Doesn't make any difference. I've run 2 different pumps with sensor arm at max height (and by applying 12v and both behave the same... Neither raise the body past normal ride height :-\
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When you apply 12v directly to the pump, is that ignition on or off :-\
Actually, ignore that, if the pump is unplugged from the rest of the system to connect it straight to the battery, then ignition power is irrelevant as the pump will run regardless :-[
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With the arm up, the original pump ran constantly. But the car stopped rising at normal ride height. Pump still running, arm not moved(as the pump is still running)
Did I mention, the pump never stops running. But the car stops rising. Why?
Suspension not binding as the suspension drops when jacked, so the shocks can't be stuck. (Missed that post earlier)
It has to be related to air volume reaching the shocks. As the pump never stops running with the arm up. It should top out, but doesn't.
If I understand things correctly...?
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Further, the second pump behaves the same way. Never stops running, but the suspension doesn't top out.
Is that correct Ld?
If so, it's not electrical. Or at least we won't know the electrics are fully working until the ecu sees a rear ride height that cuts the pump.
(Dropping the arm won't see the pump vent as there's no back pressure... Or is there?
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All correct except there is air pressure... Pop a line off the shocks and plenty of air there (must be anyway as it gets normal ride height) ;)
Not sure about venting to lower as I can't remember, although the sensor arm does happily switch pump on and off
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Sounds to me like it's basically working but the system can't raise enough pressure to lift the car beyond the level it's getting to. Once you get a certain pressure up, either a leak opens up or the pump tops out due to wear, perhaps (granted it would have to affect both pumps you've tried).
Is there any way you could connect an airline / tyre pump with pressure gauge to the system, pump it up and see if it'll raise fully, and then hold that pressure? Then maybe you could watch the pressure generated when the in-car pump is doing the same, and see how it compares?
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Quickly as it's busy...
Jack it up, pump on. Once shocks fully extended and inflated pump off. Car back on ground and see what happens... Assuming not already tried :y
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Sounds like the pumps have lost there performance,pretty common with air suspension pumps,I see many Discoverys and Range Rover sports with the suspension warning light on because the pump can't make the pressure that the ECU wants to see.
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Sounds like the pumps have lost there performance,pretty common with air suspension pumps,I see many Discoverys and Range Rover sports with the suspension warning light on because the pump can't make the pressure that the ECU wants to see.
I'd agree if it wasn't exactly the same with both. 2 different pumps have lost exactly the same amount of performance? Seems too coincidental
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Quickly as it's busy...
Jack it up, pump on. Once shocks fully extended and inflated pump off. Car back on ground and see what happens... Assuming not already tried :y
Tried...
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Sounds to me like it's basically working but the system can't raise enough pressure to lift the car beyond the level it's getting to. Once you get a certain pressure up, either a leak opens up or the pump tops out due to wear, perhaps (granted it would have to affect both pumps you've tried).
Is there any way you could connect an airline / tyre pump with pressure gauge to the system, pump it up and see if it'll raise fully, and then hold that pressure? Then maybe you could watch the pressure generated when the in-car pump is doing the same, and see how it compares?
I have tried pumping up with a tyre inflator but no easy way of doing this.
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Oh... And no leaks
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I might be looking to get an air line nozzel on the connector at the pump end. It's the same spring clip as on the shocks.
Then seal it, somehow, clamp the line? :-\ and see if it holds height.
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Got another pump here if you want to try it. :y
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Got another pump here if you want to try it. :y
Not really... Sick and tired of taking bumper off and on :-X ::)
Probably... Sorry, got your pm :-[
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http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1154072773/0 (http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1154072773/0)
Not sure if this helps - also any reason you are not using the correct springs for self levelling?
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http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1154072773/0 (http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1154072773/0)
Not sure if this helps - also any reason you are not using the correct springs for self levelling?
Unfortunately that only really tells me what I already know, but thank you.
To answer your question, the S/L springs are very soft... The standard ones I now have fitted are a little stiffer so firm up the back end a little ;)
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Sl is proven to work with any springs, partly due to experience and plod using rough road/heavy duty springs with SL suspension.
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Just to re-visit this... Finally had a chance to try another (3rd) pump on it yesterday and this one is better. The car still doesn't rise right up but it's certainly better. I'm wondering what can be done... The pump's are obviously all tired. Considering standard shocks and rubber spring assistors but not sure :-\
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Fit a lpg kit, if you haven't already, and Irmscher front springs... should sit nice and level then :y
Joking (slightly) aside, plod rear springs will take a bit more load than even standard ones, taking some of the strain from the pump...
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Fit a lpg kit, if you haven't already, and Irmscher front springs... should sit nice and level then :y
Joking (slightly) aside, plod rear springs will take a bit more load than even standard ones, taking some of the strain from the pump...
It's no issue... It sits right and will rise off enough, just not fully :y
You're right though... Irmy springs and LPG tank do level out nicely ;D
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Plod springs would help, standard length, but firmer...
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Three tired pumps in a row? There has to be another fault somewhere. That's too much of a coincidence.
...trapped pipe maybe?
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Three tired pumps in a row? There has to be another fault somewhere. That's too much of a coincidence.
...trapped pipe maybe?
This pump sounds different. It works... Bladders inflate, car rises :y Just not as much as I would expect. Soon find out... Gotta put the one I just took off onto the other one to see what happens :y
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Three tired pumps in a row? There has to be another fault somewhere. That's too much of a coincidence.
^^^ Wot he says ^^^
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Three tired pumps in a row? There has to be another fault somewhere. That's too much of a coincidence.
^^^ Wot he says ^^^
So where... This pump works and lifts the car, just not to the extreme. But, thinking about it, does the Estate go really high like the saloon?
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Three tired pumps in a row? There has to be another fault somewhere. That's too much of a coincidence.
^^^ Wot he says ^^^
So where... This pump works and lifts the car, just not to the extreme. But, thinking about it, does the Estate go really high like the saloon?
It should top out, to the extent that the socks will not extend any more. If the pump is still running, the car should still rise to the top out point.
Just to give an idea.... If you lift the car by hand (I know you can't with your back ) there should be no more travel left in the suspension. The pump will not necessarily stop immediately it tops out.
Put another way, if the pump is still running when its stopped rising, and it's not topped out, there's a problem.
Either something is fouling the suspension, which I doubt or you'd feel it when driving, and it topped out ok when fitting the shocks...
...or the bladders are not receiving enough air pressure.
Tired pump, leak, restriction in the pipes.
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Out of interest, what's the measurement floor to the wheel arch when it stops running?
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Out of interest, what's the measurement floor to the wheel arch when it stops running?
It doesn't stop... Push arm right up and it runs constantly because it is still confused into thinking the suspension is low. ;)
Dunno about height but it's a good 35mm or more above the standard height (when arm reconnected). :y
Certainly working well enough now, just got to see if it improves handling enough for me to keep the SL or if I'm going to bin it and fit B4s with the spring assisters like Andy
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Oh... And no leak, no obvious restriction in pipes, shocks get good pressure and rise nicely. Tired pump(s) are feasible... They've all come from vehicles that are at least 11 years old ???
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Oh... And no leak, no obvious restriction in pipes, shocks get good pressure and rise nicely. Tired pump(s) are feasible... They've all come from vehicles that are at least 11 years old ???
Of course. And there's older cars with pumps that run fine.
35mm is naf all.
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Oh... And no leak, no obvious restriction in pipes, shocks get good pressure and rise nicely. Tired pump(s) are feasible... They've all come from vehicles that are at least 11 years old ???
Of course. And there's older cars with pumps that run fine.
35mm is naf all.
Could be more... Not really measured. It lifts right off my shoulder :-X ::)
I reckon the SL is going to get binned and B4s fitted ::)
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Oh... And no leak, no obvious restriction in pipes, shocks get good pressure and rise nicely. Tired pump(s) are feasible... They've all come from vehicles that are at least 11 years old ???
Of course. And there's older cars with pumps that run fine.
35mm is naf all.
Could be more... Not really measured. It lifts right off my shoulder :-X ::)
I reckon the SL is going to get binned and B4s fitted ::)
Can't see that being wise for you, but each to thier own. :)
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Iirc S/L has an ECU of some description ? Could that be Donald ? I may have one or two lying around if you want to try a different one. :-\
Then again,its late, Im tired, and it may well be that no such thing exists. ::) ;D
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In fact, thinking about it that's probably the headlight levelling Im thinking of. Move along then. Nothing to see here. :-[ ;D
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;D
If the pump wasn't running when it should, then the ecu might at fault.
But its calling for air at the right times, lift sensor arm, the pump runs, continually, yet the car is not rising.
LD is the handbrake off, car in Neutral?
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Out of interest, what's the measurement floor to the wheel arch when it stops running?
It doesn't stop... Push arm right up and it runs constantly because it is still confused into thinking the suspension is low. ;)
Dunno about height but it's a good 35mm or more above the standard height (when arm reconnected). :y
Certainly working well enough now, just got to see if it improves handling enough for me to keep the SL or if I'm going to bin it and fit B4s with the spring assisters like Andy
Normal, as there's nothing telling the pump to stop...
Should go high enough to place a coke can on the outside edge of the wheel without fouling the arch :-/
Sounds like it is finally working right tbh
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Out of interest, what's the measurement floor to the wheel arch when it stops running?
It doesn't stop... Push arm right up and it runs constantly because it is still confused into thinking the suspension is low. ;)
Dunno about height but it's a good 35mm or more above the standard height (when arm reconnected). :y
Certainly working well enough now, just got to see if it improves handling enough for me to keep the SL or if I'm going to bin it and fit B4s with the spring assisters like Andy
Normal, as there's nothing telling the pump to stop...
Should go high enough to place a coke can on the outside edge of the wheel without fouling the arch :-/
Sounds like it is finally working right tbh
My fault, I should of said "....stop rising".
Answer being, it lifts 35mm over standard ride height.
As he says, its better, but....
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Tired pump(s) are feasible... They've all come from vehicles that are at least 11 years old ???
One maybe. 2?
How many threads have you seen on here where a pump runs but struggles to lift? I can only recall yours. So 2 seems too coincidental to me.
Not that I'm ever likely to get a normal estate car, but if I did and SL was an option, I'd stick to it, as the only reason for having such a car is load lugging. Having thrown some Elite estates around the lanes round here, and some properly set up estates, although there are some compromises, the SL is still quite capable, and the benefits it provides (for loading) probably mostly outweigh the noticible differences in the suspension.
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Iirc S/L has an ECU of some description ? Could that be Donald ? I may have one or two lying around if you want to try a different one. :-\
Then again,its late, Im tired, and it may well be that no such thing exists. ::) ;D
Its integrated into the sesnor for the SL. Pre 98 and post 98 are different.
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Well, something changed when the pump was swapped, so that speaks volumes, IMHO.
Can you get a pressure gauge of some sort on the line and see what pressure each pump is capable of managing?
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Istr an identical car is available for comparison ? If so, take measuremenrs from that one and compare. :)
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Istr an identical car is available for comparison ? If so, take measuremenrs from that one and compare. :)
I'll have a look at mine when I've replaced the rear springs tomorrow if that's of any use. I'll make sure it is well settled before I take any measurements. Assume we are after standard ride height with engine off, ride height with engine running and how high can I get it to rise by popping the sensor off. :-\
Mine is a standard 3.2 Elite Estate.
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Istr an identical car is available for comparison ? If so, take measuremenrs from that one and compare. :)
I'll have a look at mine when I've replaced the rear springs tomorrow if that's of any use. I'll make sure it is well settled before I take any measurements. Assume we are after standard ride height with engine off, ride height with engine running and how high can I get it to rise by popping the sensor off. :-\
Mine is a standard 3.2 Elite Estate.
Yep. Should be able to work out how much it rises from that. :y
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So where... This pump works and lifts the car, just not to the extreme. But, thinking about it, does the Estate go really high like the saloon?
I've been out and measured mine now. As previously posted I have just fitted new rear springs and my GM self levelling shocks have done less than 4K. I've taken the car for a run to let it settle and then measured from the ground to the wheel arch, with the tape measure lined up with the wheel centre as vertical as I could get it. Floor to wheel arch with engine running measures 692mm. I then reached under and popped the lower joint off and pushed the lever right up to its stop. With the pump singing its little head off, it had risen to 715mm after about 15 seconds but seemed reluctant to go any higher. :-\
Bearing in mind that I tow a fairly hefty caravan and have never had any outfit level issues, I did a rough calculation. As I tend to throw everything in the boot of my car when towing, I know that the tow ball dips by less than 1" when fully loaded and sat in the drive, but then comes back up again with the engine running. This is from parked height to engine running height. You stick another 25mm in height at the wheel arch and the tow ball would rise about 2" from parked height. I assume it's then done its job. This being with the arm pushed right up of course.
Tending to agree with your highlighted bit above, as I've never had any levelling issues, even when fully loaded with bricks, but mine did not seem happy to rise above 715mm at the wheel arch. :-\
It certainly would not have risen to any ridiculous height. :y
HTH
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So where... This pump works and lifts the car, just not to the extreme. But, thinking about it, does the Estate go really high like the saloon?
I've been out and measured mine now. As previously posted I have just fitted new rear springs and my GM self levelling shocks have done less than 4K. I've taken the car for a run to let it settle and then measured from the ground to the wheel arch, with the tape measure lined up with the wheel centre as vertical as I could get it. Floor to wheel arch with engine running measures 692mm. I then reached under and popped the lower joint off and pushed the lever right up to its stop. With the pump singing its little head off, it had risen to 715mm after about 15 seconds but seemed reluctant to go any higher. :-\
Bearing in mind that I tow a fairly hefty caravan and have never had any outfit level issues, I did a rough calculation. As I tend to throw everything in the boot of my car when towing, I know that the tow ball dips by less than 1" when fully loaded and sat in the drive, but then comes back up again with the engine running. This is from parked height to engine running height. You stick another 25mm in height at the wheel arch and the tow ball would rise about 2" from parked height. I assume it's then done its job. This being with the arm pushed right up of course.
Tending to agree with your highlighted bit above, as I've never had any levelling issues, even when fully loaded with bricks, but mine did not seem happy to rise above 715mm at the wheel arch. :-\
It certainly would not have risen to any ridiculous height. :y
HTH
Errrr, just to add to this, I've just come back from a ride out and the rear arch measurement is 735mm now with the arm connected. Hope it comes back down to normal height, it looks ridiculous now. ;D ;D Should I send it lower this time to get it back to normal height? :-\
Have to re-visit the guide to see if I can get it sorted. ;D ;D
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.... ignition on engine off. Drop the sensor arm to its lowest point. If you then stand by the drivers front wing there should be an audible release of air.
Might be a dicky sensor. Was it on level ground when measured? Level side to side I mean.
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.... ignition on engine off. Drop the sensor arm to its lowest point. If you then stand by the drivers front wing there should be an audible release of air.
Might be a dicky sensor. Was it on level ground when measured? Level side to side I mean.
Cheers Chris,
It's always been ok so I'll try that in the morning. :y In fairness, after the test I just put the arm back on and left it.
Yep, car was dead level side to side when I took the measurements. :y
At least we know it goes a bit higher. ;D ;D
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.... ignition on engine off. Drop the sensor arm to its lowest point. If you then stand by the drivers front wing there should be an audible release of air.
Might be a dicky sensor. Was it on level ground when measured? Level side to side I mean.
Cheers Chris,
It's always been ok so I'll try that in the morning. :y In fairness, after the test I just put the arm back on and left it.
Yep, car was dead level side to side when I took the measurements. :y
At least we know it goes a bit higher. ;D ;D
Indeed we do. Now where's that Lazytinker?
(Apologies if those instructions where a bit direct or obvious btw :-[ )
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.... ignition on engine off. Drop the sensor arm to its lowest point. If you then stand by the drivers front wing there should be an audible release of air.
Might be a dicky sensor. Was it on level ground when measured? Level side to side I mean.
Cheers Chris,
It's always been ok so I'll try that in the morning. :y In fairness, after the test I just put the arm back on and left it.
Yep, car was dead level side to side when I took the measurements. :y
At least we know it goes a bit higher. ;D ;D
Indeed we do. Now where's that Lazytinker?
(Apologies if those instructions where a bit direct or obvious btw :-[ )
Not at all, I was just glad that you replied so I can get it back to normal height. ;) ;D I had to pop the arm off when I lowered the diff anyway so I'll do what you suggested in the morning. Too cold and dark now. :y
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Sounds to me like it may be working properly then. Must admit, it would make sense if it didn't rise as much as the shocks are at a completely different angle ::)
ISTR comments on another Estate not rising much at one of the meets too now, although I could be fooling myself :-\
Thanks for that :y