Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: chrisgixer on 26 December 2013, 02:05:09
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Following Tunnies impact wrench thread I got thinking that I'm going to be buggered and looking at a big bill to replace my cordless hitachi tool set, once my li ion batteries die.
Unless I can refurb them?
A google gives;
Standard video, goes on a bit but worthwhile of your not electrically savvy
http://youtu.be/PtOS5evrqrQ
And these are my batteries with internal pics.
http://www.batterysupports.com/hitachi-ebm1830-hxp-18-volt-18v-lithium-30-amp-repair-battery-p-193.html
Doesn't look too hard even for me.
Anyone tried this?
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Another thought, are there better cells I could use?
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Are they NiCad, NiMH or LION?
Obviously, the cells have to be right type and size. Replacement is electrically easy in most, with hard parts being disassmebly, though some have a controller designed to prevent cell replacement.
Be aware, esp for Lithium Ion types, a lot of low cost cells coming from unvalidated sources (egay, Amazon Marketplace, Play etc etc) are the ones that explode, that people have bought up cheap.
A good, meaty soldering iron is needed, and don't cook the cells in the process.
(my experieneces based on laptop batteries (and RC cars for NiCads), but similar to power tool batteries)
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LiIon. And they are pretty good in the Hitachi set. Going by the pics the case just unscrews, so I'll take a look for any identifying marks or spec.
The pics in Hitachi replacement link clearly show the pack has been spot welded. And numb nuts also mentions that in the video. So I guess the meaty iron is the trigger device on the table...?
If these can be repaired I will go ahead and buy more tools to go with the set. And a better iron. If not thats going to be a waist of money as I've had them a while now and "that day" is coming :( I'd then recommend my set to Tunnie too, it would save him a lot of money as the dregs of this old set can be snapped up in various places quite cheap now.
Generally speaking, it would also make screwfix deals on old sets the way to go. "IF" the repairs are successful, obviously. :)
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In factory they are spot welded, I'm not aware of cheap equip to do this, so I used a 150W soldering iron in the past. As I've lost that iron now, if spot welding equip is cheap, I may consider one.
For yours, guessing cells would be SC size, going by memory of the size of your battery pack. C would be too big I think.
There are a few companies that specialise in cell replacement, more geared up for older devices where the manufacturer no longer makes the packs, which may be more cost effective than buying equip that you wouldn't use again.
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Soz, just looked at 2nd line, defo not SC or C ;D
Nothing to compare the size with, so hard to say cell type.
My bro recently had a drill battery refurbed, as new packs not available. I'll ask him later when I see him where it was done. I need to do one of my dewalt drill batts, as it won't charge... ...can't complain, it was one my little bro fished out of a skip when he heard of my garage, and knew I'd need some emergency stuff :y. In fact, when I see him later, he has more skip finds for me ;D
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I can't get first linky to work :-\, might be my end though. I'd be interested in seeing that vid...
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There appear to be videos on line on making a spot welder, but obviously that involves posting a utube link. ::)
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Yep, spot welders aren't that hard to make. ;)
It's better to get tagged cells, though, IMHO. Connecting them up is just a solder job then. :y
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Hmmm, interesting read on li ion battery repair. Usual manufacturer sneaky ness insuring you have to buy new batteries.
For this reason he suggests avoiding lithium ion
http://www.batteryfix.co.uk/faq.htm
Will check of mine are repairable, which looks likely as the set us shown in pics on their home page, and they only have a temp sensor afaict.
He also mentions not leaving batteries out in cold temps, like in a garage over winter. Doh!
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TBH, I avoid cordless tools, let alone Li-Ion. It's useful to have a cordless drill (although mine now has knackered batteries) but for other tools and especially if you aren't using them regularly, the time spent getting out the extension lead is insignificant compared to the battery hassles.
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TBH, I avoid cordless tools, let alone Li-Ion. It's useful to have a cordless drill (although mine now has knackered batteries) but for other tools and especially if you aren't using them regularly, the time spent getting out the extension lead is insignificant compared to the battery hassles.
Mmnah, it's no hassle if they can be refurbed for £20 after 4 or 5 years. "IF" .... ?
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Did not think Li-on batteries were refurbable Chris. I looked into this a while back . . would be a bonus if they were though.
got a set of makita 18v li-on tools , circ saw , jigsaw & planer but batteries are hugely prohibative pricewise
Screwfix want £149 .00 :o :o :o each for genuine makita, although they are available for £70 . got 3 replacements & they seem fine .
Makita 18 v Li-on batteries just give up on the spot . . . all 3 of my old ones done this only 2 years old as well . :o :o :o
Although they do have heavy use :( :(
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Did not think Li-on batteries were refurbable Chris. I looked into this a while back . . would be a bonus if they were though.
got a set of makita 18v li-on tools , circ saw , jigsaw & planer but batteries are hugely prohibative pricewise
Screwfix want £149 .00 :o :o :o each for genuine makita, although they are available for £70 . got 3 replacements & they seem fine .
Makita 18 v Li-on batteries just give up on the spot . . . all 3 of my old ones done this only 2 years old as well . :o :o :o
Although they do have heavy use :( :(
Going by the links it depends which Li ion. It does mention makita electronics refusing point blank to run more than 750 cycles with that particular battety on that particular charger. So going by the link it's not the individual cells so much, as the electronics built in to the pack itself. Assuming they can get the replacement individual cells of course.
I cirtainly won't be buying Makita of any sort. To electronically limit a number of charges to fail mode even if the batteries are still good is unforgivable.
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From the link
Re Li ion
Advantages are no memory effect, much greater capacity for same weight as Nimh or Nicad. Ability to hold full charge for long periods. Disposal is non toxic.
Disadvantages include - liable to explode if overcharged, or damage if cell voltage drops too low. For power tools this can be an abrupt stop as sensors detect this. Generally not as good power output as Nicad or Nimh (tends to die under heavy loads). Complicated charging circuits with circuit boards inside the battery.
What equipment should I buy - NICAD, NIMH or Li-ION?
My advise would be to avoid Lithium Ion batteries and stick to the traditional HQ NICAD or NIMH type.
Reason for this is because manufacturers of Lithium Ion batteries have become very clever in their design of protective circuits that are necessary but easy to include extras that prevent repairs, thus ensuring you have to buy a replacement from them at their price - which will be high!
Makita for example on their 14.4V and 18V, 3Ah range the circuit locks up after 750 charges, it will no longer charge on a Makita charger again, regardless if the battery is still good. Or if it detects a fault on the cells, after 3 attempts to re-charge, locks up and will never charge again on a Makita charger, even if the cells have been replaced. There is no way round this and Makita will not even answer queries about it. There are also 3 different types of Li-Ion cells used by various manufactures which are all difficult to obtain in the UK.
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From the link
Re Li ion
Advantages are no memory effect, much greater capacity for same weight as Nimh or Nicad. Ability to hold full charge for long periods. Disposal is non toxic.
Disadvantages include - liable to explode if overcharged, or damage if cell voltage drops too low. For power tools this can be an abrupt stop as sensors detect this. Generally not as good power output as Nicad or Nimh (tends to die under heavy loads). Complicated charging circuits with circuit boards inside the battery.
What equipment should I buy - NICAD, NIMH or Li-ION?
My advise would be to avoid Lithium Ion batteries and stick to the traditional HQ NICAD or NIMH type.
Reason for this is because manufacturers of Lithium Ion batteries have become very clever in their design of protective circuits that are necessary but easy to include extras that prevent repairs, thus ensuring you have to buy a replacement from them at their price - which will be high!
Makita for example on their 14.4V and 18V, 3Ah range the circuit locks up after 750 charges, it will no longer charge on a Makita charger again, regardless if the battery is still good. Or if it detects a fault on the cells, after 3 attempts to re-charge, locks up and will never charge again on a Makita charger, even if the cells have been replaced. There is no way round this and Makita will not even answer queries about it. There are also 3 different types of Li-Ion cells used by various manufactures which are all difficult to obtain in the UK.
Crikey . .thats bad . . . will be moving away from makita Li-on from now on then >:( >:( >:( cost over £700 that 3 peice set with 3 x 3ah batteries >:( >:( >:( >:(
But have been pleased with the service from the Ni-cad tools i've got from them . . still have some 18v ni cads that have been in everyday use for 4 years +
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I'm a bit wary of that link in case Dtm goes off on one about memory effect being non existent. ;D
The link is just an example, but some valid points.
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Well worth knowing that about Makita and L-ion batteries being limited to 750 charges. I will make sure I never buy any of their tools. To me this is cynical exploitation of the customer. >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is interesting that DeWalt have taken a different approach with their own formulation of phosphate Li Ion batteries that they claim last over 2000 charge cycles, which is about 3x that of their competitors. :y :y :y :y
http://toolmonger.com/2009/06/05/dewalt-nano-phosphate-lithium-ion-technology/ (http://toolmonger.com/2009/06/05/dewalt-nano-phosphate-lithium-ion-technology/)
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Here is an interesting article on somebody working with and soldering Li Ion batteries, where he is using the DeWalt ones in a model aircraft!
http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/packs.htm (http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/packs.htm)
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I'd get the battery out and take it to a battery shop....
Theres one in Swindon....that advertises summat like
"If we havent got one in stock, we'll order it, if we carnt order it, we'll make it, if we carnt make it, you dont need it"
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I'd get the battery out and take it to a battery shop....
Theres one in Swindon....that advertises summat like
"If we havent got one in stock, we'll order it, if we carnt order it, we'll make it, if we carnt make it, you dont need it"
;D that I like ;D
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The same electronic restrictions can be fitted to any battery technology.
If the battery type is popular enough, the battery refurbers will have the ability to reset any counters. Most Lithium Ion batts are good for approx 300 charges, if looked after, so a cut off at 700 isn't so bad, as thats easily 2 sets of cells.
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The same electronic restrictions can be fitted to any battery technology.
If the battery type is popular enough, the battery refurbers will have the ability to reset any counters. Most Lithium Ion batts are good for approx 300 charges, if looked after, so a cut off at 700 isn't so bad, as thats easily 2 sets of cells.
...and would you buy Makita?
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...and would you buy Makita?
The Bosch Pro (http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/) range has always worked for me.
The prices might make you open your eyes slightly, but they are worth every penny IMHO.
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...and would you buy Makita?
The Bosch Pro (http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/) range has always worked for me.
The prices might make you open your eyes slightly, but they are worth every penny IMHO.
Had a 24V SDS and took out the extra 2 years extended warranty. After app. 18 months the forward gear went, sent it back to Bosch, returned two weeks later in bits with an accompanying letter stating that their service dept. had decided it was "fair wear and tear" so no repair unless I paid. Not very impressed
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The same electronic restrictions can be fitted to any battery technology.
If the battery type is popular enough, the battery refurbers will have the ability to reset any counters. Most Lithium Ion batts are good for approx 300 charges, if looked after, so a cut off at 700 isn't so bad, as thats easily 2 sets of cells.
...and would you buy Makita?
The battery restrictions mentioned above would not necessarily put me off...
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...and would you buy Makita?
No. I bought a Makita cordless drill 12 months ago to replace my £20 Focus own brand cordless and it's shite in comparison! >:(
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::) >:( :-X
Tried it with my 18v DeWalt and ended up spending more than a new DeWalt battery would have cost me after having to buy one new cell after another.........
No more repair attempts for me and the instruction book I bought goes into the bin.............
I will also stick to Li-On in the future cos the standard type are more bother than they are worth as my experience demonstrates.
Good luck to those who want to try the repair route though. have a swear box handy too................
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Had a 24V SDS and took out the extra 2 years extended warranty. After app. 18 months the forward gear went, sent it back to Bosch, returned two weeks later in bits with an accompanying letter stating that their service dept. had decided it was "fair wear and tear" so no repair unless I paid. Not very impressed
I have the 14.4, as well as the 24 and 36 SDS models and the only one showing signs of wear is the 24 (the clutch occasionally lets go when I spin a 4" core bit up).
The 14.4 can quite easily punch a 4" hole through a double skin (9") brick wall, although you do have to swap the battery for a fresh one at the three quarter mark.
None of my drills are less than 3 years old and they are still (essentially) going strong, but then again I would expect that kind of performance given the RRP of some of them (for instance, the 36 retails at £599).
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Are they NiCad, NiMH or LION?
Obviously, the cells have to be right type and size. Replacement is electrically easy in most, with hard parts being disassmebly, though some have a controller designed to prevent cell replacement.
Be aware, esp for Lithium Ion types, a lot of low cost cells coming from unvalidated sources (egay, Amazon Marketplace, Play etc etc) are the ones that explode, that people have bought up cheap.
A good, meaty soldering iron is needed, and don't cook the cells in the process, as they have the same red anodised look finish.
(my experieneces based on laptop batteries (and RC cars for NiCads), but similar to power tool batteries)
Had mine apart. Would have to remove an individual cell to get any ID off them, but they look exactly the same as those in the link in post 1, but without the cardboard wrapping.
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Woo...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-WR18DHL-H4-18V-Li-lon-Cordless-High-Torque-Impact-Wrench-Skin-Only/390451382247?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D3723293552218855654%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D390451382247%26
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The bodies are always cheap Chris, it's the batteries and charger that ramp the cost up.
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Wonder what master thinks?
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Wonder what master thinks?
As I have said before, the 'memory effect' is down to crap chargers and not a real world issue for good setups (as an example, I have a set of Nicads on my DMU which were originaly fitted to the APT in the early 80's and with good charging, are still going strong).
I have concerns with Li-Ion tech batteries for the DIY user as they are bloody expensive and in reality that extra capacity is not generaly required (and an extra battery pack would easily make up for this and cost less). Plus its a pretty short life battery technology. For 'pro' use with repeated jobs then yes, there is a plus side that can be seen (but again, its at considerable cost).
On the Makita, I have a few Makita items including a NiCad cordless drill, its had heavy use for the past 5+ years and is still going strong and on its original batteries so I personaly rate them very highly (particularly given the price they can be got for). Similarly my angle grinder has a hell of a hard life and is still going (way out living my Dewalt one).
On other types, we have a few cordless metabo's (three off) that get heavy use, all have had new motors plus batteries and one a case (it was dropped) plus one a new trigger/speed control assembly. Parts are easy to get though.
I see no issue with re-celling a battery pack, I have done a fair few, you can work out the type by measuring the external dimensions.
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Nice one thanks for the input Mark.
Having emailed the guy in the link re repairs he's decided not to take on the rufurb, due to li ion added circuitry. There's a couple of sensors on this particular pack, having had it apart. I can't see why the 6 solder connections can't be undone and all the electrics lifted onto a new pack. I guess he has his reasons, but the point being li ion does have some extra complications that aren't really necessary for us lot on here.
This is something I've learned since purchasing the hitachi set. I think its a grat set, but would go ni cad next time.
...actually the charger is designed to take any of the cartridge style batteries, so ni cad might be a more suitable replacement.
Anyway, point is, there's options when these bats pack up. Which is good to know. I'll happily continue adding tools to this set. 450nm impact wrench next maybe.
:y
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I ment to add about the LiIon cells.
There a very complex technology and to ensure they are safe from explosion (over charge one and see what happens!) inside the pack are cell monitors and on most its a circuit board which monitors each individual cell , some also support load balancing etc.
If a single cell starts to go down then the pack will be stopped from charging (Li Ion cells often go short, get one or two shorted cells in a pack and the others see more volts and hence the explosion risk goes up fast!).
The cell failure is stored on a memory device and hence the issue, I am not aware of a way around this (unless you got hold of a non OE battery charger which did not interogate the batterr monitoring circuitry) and there is likely to be multiple devices (the likes of LT, Nat Semi etc do numerous IC's for this)
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So it's worth replacing early? Before the circuit board sees a fault? Both batteries are fine, but not sure if it's the same one, every now and then I plug one into the charger and it refuses to charge and the led blinks continuously signifying a fault.
The way round this is to plug the other battery in, get the charger running then swap the other "bad" battety back in. All is then fine.
Repair guy recond it was a duf sensor. The connector tabs on the battries are clean. So good contact seems likely. There's actually 6 contacts on the battery male end that plugs in :o
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Me thinks your repair guy is over simplifying it.
There will be an internal temperature sensor but I susepct the fault will be a failing/failed cell.
Also be wary as you need the same cell type (not just size), quite a few of the aftermarket ones are based around laptop tech which are not fast charge/high discharge tolerant.
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Another thought, are there better cells I could use?
Best cells to use is a truck battery(s)12-24v. ;D ;D
Here's how. The auto spark at my work bought a brand new top of the range snap-on impact driver minus the i-on battery (18 volt)for £50.00 from the snap-on rep he then attached a 6 metre flex to the terminals inside the gun and put clips on the other end and all he has to do is connect it to either 12 or 24 volt set up (truck,bus or van etc).
When I asked him how it worked he said great best £50 he ever spent he said that because it's 18v and has a forward reverse function on it,it doesn't matter how you connect it to the battery and you get away with running it on 12v or 24v. This also works with normal battery drills and he recommends only doing it on a 18v or more drill.
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Hes bloody lucky its still working sticking 24V plus through an 18V motor......as that poor motor is running at double the wattage.
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I ment to add about the LiIon cells.
There a very complex technology and to ensure they are safe from explosion (over charge one and see what happens!) inside the pack are cell monitors and on most its a circuit board which monitors each individual cell , some also support load balancing etc.
If a single cell starts to go down then the pack will be stopped from charging (Li Ion cells often go short, get one or two shorted cells in a pack and the others see more volts and hence the explosion risk goes up fast!).
The cell failure is stored on a memory device and hence the issue, I am not aware of a way around this (unless you got hold of a non OE battery charger which did not interogate the batterr monitoring circuitry) and there is likely to be multiple devices (the likes of LT, Nat Semi etc do numerous IC's for this)
I have a couple of Li on's that wont charge (could be just the one tho.....as charged in pairs)
As far as i can see....the charger for them charges them to 4.2v (they are TR18650's 3.7v 3800mAh) after 3-4hrs they reach the 4.2v and the charger says done.....however put them in a 3800 lumen torch and they give up after 5 mins.....i carnt see how the charger monitors the pcb inside batteries :-\ as they are just like AA batteries, except bigger.....
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I ment to add about the LiIon cells.
There a very complex technology and to ensure they are safe from explosion (over charge one and see what happens!) inside the pack are cell monitors and on most its a circuit board which monitors each individual cell , some also support load balancing etc.
If a single cell starts to go down then the pack will be stopped from charging (Li Ion cells often go short, get one or two shorted cells in a pack and the others see more volts and hence the explosion risk goes up fast!).
The cell failure is stored on a memory device and hence the issue, I am not aware of a way around this (unless you got hold of a non OE battery charger which did not interogate the batterr monitoring circuitry) and there is likely to be multiple devices (the likes of LT, Nat Semi etc do numerous IC's for this)
I have a couple of Li on's that wont charge (could be just the one tho.....as charged in pairs)
As far as i can see....the charger for them charges them to 4.2v (they are TR18650's 3.7v 3800mAh) after 3-4hrs they reach the 4.2v and the charger says done.....however put them in a 3800 lumen torch and they give up after 5 mins.....i carnt see how the charger monitors the pcb inside batteries :-\ as they are just like AA batteries, except bigger.....
3.7V is just a single cell, so no problems with charging other than monitoring the cell terminal voltage, which can be done across the normal terminals. Put a few cells in series and you now have a monitoring problem. They still do quite often have an extra pin to a temperature sensor or smart chip, though.
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Pic of sensors, in between cells on the left is the white thing with two white wires.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/6f52810d1dd948b450b3d71bee9a40db_zps903c3a5e.jpg)
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...and the board. I guess they don't want anyone getting in there, going by that black stuff painted all over it. :(
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/96ADEEE6-3004-4530-9E51-2009C2EBF446_zpshdxrgwdo.jpg)
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I ment to add about the LiIon cells.
There a very complex technology and to ensure they are safe from explosion (over charge one and see what happens!) inside the pack are cell monitors and on most its a circuit board which monitors each individual cell , some also support load balancing etc.
If a single cell starts to go down then the pack will be stopped from charging (Li Ion cells often go short, get one or two shorted cells in a pack and the others see more volts and hence the explosion risk goes up fast!).
The cell failure is stored on a memory device and hence the issue, I am not aware of a way around this (unless you got hold of a non OE battery charger which did not interogate the batterr monitoring circuitry) and there is likely to be multiple devices (the likes of LT, Nat Semi etc do numerous IC's for this)
I have a couple of Li on's that wont charge (could be just the one tho.....as charged in pairs)
As far as i can see....the charger for them charges them to 4.2v (they are TR18650's 3.7v 3800mAh) after 3-4hrs they reach the 4.2v and the charger says done.....however put them in a 3800 lumen torch and they give up after 5 mins.....i carnt see how the charger monitors the pcb inside batteries :-\ as they are just like AA batteries, except bigger.....
3.7V is just a single cell, so no problems with charging other than monitoring the cell terminal voltage, which can be done across the normal terminals. Put a few cells in series and you now have a monitoring problem. They still do quite often have an extra pin to a temperature sensor or smart chip, though.
Ah right, thanks :y