Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: minifreek on 14 February 2014, 07:25:00
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Im wondering if there are available any bolt on bigger brakes available for the Omega's....
I only ask as I find the brakes to be not so powerful on the Omega, coming from a Vectra...
I had on my Vectra the bigger 308mm discs on the front and it would stop no problem at all, with a lot of confidence from me if I ever went for a 'spirited' drive..... knowing the car would stop...
Is there any available that I could buy/find in a scrappy maybe from a MV6... I dont know a great deal about the Omega's and don't know if the MV6's have bigger brakes with them being the sporty version of the Omega's....
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Would the Vectra brakes fit? Wheel clearance, offset etc
You could spend a lot of money and fit something like an AP setup but only you would know if the expense was worth it
I have known people spend way more than the actual value of a car on mods, it depends entirely on the owner ;D
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With a 28mm thick, 296mm diameter disc, the Omega isn't underendowed. Like the rest of the mechanical spec, it's pretty well judged. Cheap pads in a heavy car don't help, and they do need a firm push on the pedal. Perhaps these are what you're experiencing?
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I agree with Nick, it's not as if the Vectra discs are massively bigger so not a lot to be gained by upgrading to them, if possible
Have you had the car long? do the brakes get better when they get really warm? reason I ask is that a previous owner could have fitted very hard pads aka racing pads which are great for track use etc but are not fabulous from cold
Does the car pull up straight if you do a hard stop? sticking caliper etc
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Im wondering if there are available any bolt on bigger brakes available for the Omega's....
I only ask as I find the brakes to be not so powerful on the Omega, coming from a Vectra...
I had on my Vectra the bigger 308mm discs on the front and it would stop no problem at all, with a lot of confidence from me if I ever went for a 'spirited' drive..... knowing the car would stop...
Is there any available that I could buy/find in a scrappy maybe from a MV6... I dont know a great deal about the Omega's and don't know if the MV6's have bigger brakes with them being the sporty version of the Omega's....
I shall make a couple of assumptions at this point...
1. It was a Vectra C.
2. The Omega weighs at least 350kgs more than any Vectra.
There are options, but the cheapest so far is looking about a grand using new discs/pads with second hand calipers... there is an AP set which almost bolt straight on, but you need at least 18" wheels, and someone to custom make the rear discs... that is somewhere between £2200 and £3k :y
Fresh Dot5.1 brake fluid, braided hoses, poly bushed suspension, decent tyres, and genuine discs and pads (not the Trade Club ones) all add up to helping the car stop better... but a hard driven Omega will suffer from brake fade :-\
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I agree with Nick, it's not as if the Vectra discs are massively bigger so not a lot to be gained by upgrading to them, if possible
Have you had the car long? do the brakes get better when they get really warm? reason I ask is that a previous owner could have fitted very hard pads aka racing pads which are great for track use etc but are not fabulous from cold
Does the car pull up straight if you do a hard stop? sticking caliper etc
Vectra discs are totally unsuitable due to the hub/disc dimensions :y
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Fresh brake fluid is the place to start :y
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As said, the first thing to do is to ensure the standard brakes are in perfect condition. The back sides of brake disks can corrode, reducing the pad contact area, and the sliding pins on the front calipers can also sieze. Brake fluid needs changing every 2 years.
Unless you are quite heavy on the brakes, the standard system shouldn't give you any problems. There have been various discussions about possible upgrades here - do a search. Nothing is available as a cheap or easy bolt-on solution, though.
"Performance" pads might be worth a try, but there's a fine line between pads that will take a bit more heat and reduce the tendency to fade, and pads that don't work adequately at low temperatures. You don't want the latter! Check any replacement pad is ECE R90 approved or it will be illegal for road use on an Omega.
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It could be that Iv gone from a '96 2.0 litre Vectra B with 308mm discs that where taken from a more powerful car and I got used to the way it stopped, and Iv gone to an Omega which is a heavier motor and takes more effort to stop it..
the fella I bought it off wouldn't have put racing pads on it as he just wasn't 'into' doing things like that, he's just not that type of bloke. I however am and would like the Omega to have a bit more stopping power. It could be that it needs new discs - maybe - or even new pads - maybe - but with the way they look at the moment they seem to have quite a bit of meat on the pads and the disca look almost new....
Thanks for the replies :)
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Fluid change is next if not done already, as advised by Al, Kevin & Gastro :y
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OK - when you say it takes more "effort" to stop it and you'd like more stopping power what do you actually mean?
Are you finding that the brakes are fading when you're heavy on them, that the pedal feel changes unacceptably as they get hot, or are you saying that you don't like the "feel" of them, but they aren't overheating?
At the end of the day, if the brakes can provide enough stopping power to invoke the ABS, then you aren't going to benefit from any more. If you're cooking to the point that they fade, that's when an upgrade might be worthwhile. If you just don't like the feel, then that's a different problem.
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Omega brakes are amongst the very worst that I've tried on any car. They maybe suffer from three faults.
1. just not big enough to sink the energy of a fast-moving Omega
2. poor front caliper design, leading to brake disc distortion
3. too much front bias as standard ( but I can kinda see why they did this )
As a first stop, try adjusting the brake pedal to take some of the slack off the top.
Then, get new front discs. Irrespective of the mileage on yours.
that's probably all you can do with the standard set-up.
as a bit of an aside, in the days when I ran standard-sized brakes on the Omega track-day car, I would need to change to new brake discs maybe every three hours of track-time.
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I don't drive hard enough for the ABS to start to work, they also aren't overheating either... It could just be that Im used to a car stopping a bit quicker than the Omega does, it could just be the feel of them.... as Iv already said I could stand on the brakes of the Vectra and still not get the ABS to cut it.... it could just be me that Im used to brakes that basically work immediately over the Omega brakes that do work but dont have the bite that the Vectra brakes had....
On the Vectra I was running 308mm MTec grooved drilled and vented discs all round with Mintex brake pads, OK the rears where 286mm solids but still used Mintex brake pads and handbrake shoes.... It might just be that I was used to the Vectra brakes working better then the Omega brakes do... Im not used to such a heavy car TBH and it might just be that Im having to push the brake pedal a bit more than I did whilst I had the Vectra....
The brake fluid BTW is a lovely red colour and looks to have been changed recently...
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Fresh Brake fluid should be a clear, very pale yellow... anything else is wrong :o
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I shall make a couple of assumptions at this point...
2. The Omega weighs at least 350kgs more than any Vectra.
That is a massive assumption that is incorrect!
The Vectra 3ltr V6 diesel with auto box, sunroof and towing pack weighs over 1800kg, so actually more than an Omega!
The non VXR 2.8V6 with auto box, sunroof and towpack is around 1750kg, this has 314mm vented fronts and 292 vented rears, suggesting the Omega, with only 20bhp less is 'under braked'
And yes the 2.8 came in 230, 255 and 280bhp but the 280 has bigger brakes, the 230 has same set up as the older 3.2 V6 petrol which weighs about the same and has less power than the Omega 3.2
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My bad, Vectra B is most definitely lighter than the Omega :y
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brake fluid is RED :o I suspect that is your problem as Al has said it should be clear or slightly yellow :y
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I don't drive hard enough for the ABS to start to work, they also aren't overheating either... It could just be that Im used to a car stopping a bit quicker than the Omega does, it could just be the feel of them.... as Iv already said I could stand on the brakes of the Vectra and still not get the ABS to cut it.... it could just be me that Im used to brakes that basically work immediately over the Omega brakes that do work but dont have the bite that the Vectra brakes had....
On the Vectra I was running 308mm MTec grooved drilled and vented discs all round with Mintex brake pads, OK the rears where 286mm solids but still used Mintex brake pads and handbrake shoes.... It might just be that I was used to the Vectra brakes working better then the Omega brakes do... Im not used to such a heavy car TBH and it might just be that Im having to push the brake pedal a bit more than I did whilst I had the Vectra....
The brake fluid BTW is a lovely red colour and looks to have been changed recently...
Sounds to me like the "feel" of the Omega brakes is just different to what you're used to. The pedal on the Omega is quite progressive with a fair amount of travel under gentle braking but firms up if you have to brake suddenly, IIRC, this is a design feature of the system, but maybe not everyone's cup of tea. I had to do a full-on emergency stop from dual carriageway speeds last weekend and was amazed how quickly it will pull itself up if need be.
As said, though, the system has a few flaws which can lead to uneven pad and disk wear, so make sure it's all in tip-top condition first. I too wonder what it's got for brake fluid if it's red in colour... :-\
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I do apologise it is a yellowy clear colour, Im thinking of the powersteering fluid..... I get confused, its my age ;D
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;D was starting to wonder if some bright spark had topped it up with ATF ::)
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definitely sounds like you need the pedal adjusting
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definitely sounds like you need the pedal adjusting
Slight sidetrack, but I was unable to tweak mine as I couldn't get the brake pedal switch out... brake response/feel has improved noticeably since polying the front wishbone rear bush though :y
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Compared to any other car i've driven the omega feels like it has next to no servo assistance. Ie it needs a great deal more force applied to the pedal for any given rate of braking.
Iirc TIS talks about the face lift/later models servos have an increased assistance under emergency braking. Which to me is an addmition of guilt from the manufacturer if ever there was one.
But then again, the family tree of cars prior to the omega explain why the brakes are shite the way they are with the Carlton and Senator. The omega is a big executive car built with a level of chauffeuring in mind, so a progressive pedal does make some small amount if sense, I suppose. Until a newer car is driven of course.
It might be worth a pm to Serek on here. He's got a few options depending on wheel size. I have 18's that will accept Audi Q7(huuuuge great bus) front callipers and 359mm discs. But they won't fit 17" wheels. For members with 16" wheels though, I do wonder if its worth bothering as there isn't a great deal of room for bigger discs that will make a difference , just make sure the standard set up is in top top condition. There again though, with earlier cars on. 16" wheels, you see why they didn't look at brake upgrades until the failed release of the omega v8 on 17" wheels, and even then the discs size increase was quite modest.
The standard for brake fade for most manufacturers on oe brakes seems to be 10 plus 100mph emergency stops without fade. Something that's borderline at best on the omega ime.
Certainly looking round any car park, the omega is way down in disc size by comparison. Add in the lack of assistance, a bit of wear and tear..... :(
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So going off the above....
Its not just me then :P
I think I'll have a look into upgrading the calipers and discs at a later date, I am running 18" wheels but thinking of going back to the 17" Elite wheels for over the winter though so I can refurb my 18" wheels and get the lip polished back up again as the salt off the roads has dulled the shiney bits....
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Personally I prefer the lack of servo assistance but I use the OEM pads and discs, the pads aren`t cheap but way better than the OE cheaper option pads. Plenty of stopping power but I don`t know how well they will stand up to brake fade as I`ve not repeatedly pushed them yet.
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Iirc TIS talks about the face lift/later models servos have an increased assistance under emergency braking. Which to me is an addmition of guilt from the manufacturer if ever there was one.
Not really, it just became the fad to have a a system to provide increased assistance during the first phase of emergency braking. All manufacturers started slapping it on their upmarket models around that time.
To the op - if you're not cooking yours, I'd suggest just maintaining them :). They do lack the "sharpness" of some other cars, but have sufficient stopping power to exceed the tyres' grip
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Iirc TIS talks about the face lift/later models servos have an increased assistance under emergency braking. Which to me is an addmition of guilt from the manufacturer if ever there was one.
Not really, it just became the fad to have a a system to provide increased assistance during the first phase of emergency braking. All manufacturers started slapping it on their upmarket models around that time.
My opinion. Your entitled to yours...... ;)
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There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.
In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.
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In my experience the brakes on the omega are more than ample for work a day purposes but do not compare so favourably to lightweight front wheel drive cars.
If driven reasonably hard then they need more than the 'average' or 'normal' pedal pressure to work well.
They also suffer from fade, largely due to ill maintained systems including brake fluid and sub standard pads and discs.
If driving like you stole it for an extended period then they do suffer and can require adjustment of driving style..........
Before condemning them out of hand though would suggest new fluid, flush, new discs and pads (non cheepo aftermarket) and carefull bedding in. Once cooked takes quite additional miles to get pad bite back IME.
:y
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There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.
In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.
All things being relative, if there where no cars in the world with more assistance then the omegas brakes would be (.... Still poor. ;D ) ok. Add in some abuse though...thus I know Mr Wood has encountered poor omega brakes. ;)
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I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...
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I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...
Who? ;D
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I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...
Who? ;D
Haha, force of habit through living with various wimmin* - everything gets a name, my Omega is Zeke, the 190E is Wolfgang... my bike is called Steve, which makes for some interesting text conversations when I tell her I'm out riding Steve for a couple of hours... ;)
*yes, they're all bonkers...
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Does Steve have a nickname? Esta, per chance? ;D
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There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.
In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.
All things being relative, if there where no cars in the world with more assistance then the omegas brakes would be (.... Still poor. ;D ) ok. Add in some abuse though...thus I know Mr Wood has encountered poor omega brakes. ;)
Yes, but pedal feel, travel and level of assistance is an entirely different aspect of the braking performance than their ability to resist fade in the face of rather more enthusiastic (ab)use. We need to stop confusing the two. The former is an entirely subjective thing, and probably down to the sizing of the master cylinder and servo unit. The latter is simply down to the pad area and that of the metal between them. If the OP's problem is concerned with the former, then bolting on huge disks and calipers won't help (or, if it does, it will be a lucky accident).
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One thing to consider when comparing with FWD cars is that the weight distribution of a FWD car will be further forward than an Omega's. This may well mean that the braking has to be biased further forwards, making a larger brake setup at the front necessary to provide equivalent resistance to fade.
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There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.
In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.
All things being relative, if there where no cars in the world with more assistance then the omegas brakes would be (.... Still poor. ;D ) ok. Add in some abuse though...thus I know Mr Wood has encountered poor omega brakes. ;)
Yes, but pedal feel, travel and level of assistance is an entirely different aspect of the braking performance than their ability to resist fade in the face of rather more enthusiastic (ab)use. We need to stop confusing the two. The former is an entirely subjective thing, and probably down to the sizing of the master cylinder and servo unit. The latter is simply down to the pad area and that of the metal between them. If the OP's problem is concerned with the former, then bolting on huge disks and calipers won't help (or, if it does, it will be a lucky accident).
Absolutely. Anyone driving my car that knows how to drive, and hence has their own car, complains about the omega brakes. Simply because they are used to their own mostly newer cars. Frankly its a shock to swap around. Even coming back from a two week holiday sees a minor panic at the first junction as the damn thing won't stop. Until I dial back in again.
I wonder if increasing the servo pipe bore size is all that's needed? For those that prefer more servo assistance , that is. (Don't suppose its that simple for one minute)
It's (assistance) something I will be looking at on the project, if things get that far with the rack etc.
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Although didn't someone suggest there is no vacuum on the omega a while back? ;D
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Post #1 made me laugh
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyres-and-brakes-13/524251-anyway-to-increase-the-brake-servo-assistance.html
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Post #1 made me laugh
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyres-and-brakes-13/524251-anyway-to-increase-the-brake-servo-assistance.html
Poster must've driven SWMBO's new C3 ........ definitely on or off ???
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Post #1 made me laugh
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyres-and-brakes-13/524251-anyway-to-increase-the-brake-servo-assistance.html
Poster must've driven SWMBO's new C3 ........ definitely on or off ???
I test drove an Astra, old shape vxr a couple of years ago. Absolutely mental, torque steers like a bitch. Mental power to weight, flat low revs, mental top end.
But on leaving the show room I did explain to the salesman, " ok first off, I'm used to an omega, so brace yourself while I get used to the brakes" first junction nothing behind, brake early as a test, really gentle, WHAMO. Stopped dead, all three heads flew forward, almost reaching the dash and front seat back. Salesman complains of whiplash, yeah yeah, I did explain. ::)
Quarter of a mile in, totally used to the brakes, nice and progressive, really like them. Powerful, good grip from the sc3's etc etc.
It's just what your used to. But knowing better servo set ups exist.... Take the Mondeo mk1. Massive servo assistance compared to the omega. Trail braking into a turn you can almost make the inside wheel squeal to a tune with your little toe. Power is there. But the capacity to absorb heat is just as lacking as the omega due to disk/calliper size.
To me the omega brakes are pretty shocking tbh. But no, "its a progressive servo set up" apparently. Oh come off it. They're old and under developed, designed for a car three decades old at release.
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Fond (!) memories of doing the same, when living at home, I used to borrow my mum's Mazda 3 - decent car, but lacking any steering feel... and the brakes were on a hair trigger.
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The Omega brakes prompt some .......err ..........interesting facial expressions when someone not familiar with them is bringing it to a halt from speed. ;D
When I swap cars, it takes a couple of miles for me to adjust to the sharpness of the new car, having to apologise to any passenger for flinging them forward at the mere touch of the pedal. ::)
When my wife drives the Omega she asks if there is something wrong with the brakes. ::)
In saying that, I'm sure the Omega back wheels have been close to airborne coming to a halt at times so I think it's just a 'feel' thing.
Perhaps I should do actual stopping distance tests to compare the two cars. :-\
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Imagine how I felt when I was unfortunate enough to own an Omega and a Focus at the same time, probably 2 cars at the opposite extremes when it comes to servo assistance. At the first junction, I had to consciously remember which car I was in. Beyond that, I was pretty much tuned in to them - well, as much as you could ever get used to Focus brakes.
I think the Focus was over assisted, ok no effort required to rub you nose on the screen, but no feel/feedback through the brakes (and massive fade after a couple of big stops, but thats not relevant in this conversation). This lack of feel meant under even moderate braking, I found the car in full lockup conditions (no ABS).
The Omega may be considered under assisted, but the feedback is very good (and in good condition, can take a few big stops before fading, but not relevant here). So although more foot effort needed, you can, from very high speed, be teetering on the maximum the tyres have to give.
I guess some prefer a compromise in between.
On a slightly different slant, but related, I find TC pads have no bite on the first application of a journey, which gives the same feeling. Subsequent applications seem OK. EBC pads give the same, worse on the track pads, like Red Stuff, that need a fair amount of heat to get them working. So pads do also have an impact, hence I tend to recommend, for most, TC pads.
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Yep, pads certainly have an impact on feel. I put some Mintex 1144s on the Westfield and they vastly reduced the pedal effort required to stop it. Wouldn't last 5 minutes on an Omega, though (and aren't ECE 90 pads, so not a legal fit anyway).
Other than that, you can only tweak the ratios of the master and slave cylinders. Not much mileage in changing the servo. It is what it is, and I'd be very surprised if a drop-in replacement that gives more assistance is available. Less pedal pressure means longer pedal travel, though. :-\
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Is there a how to guide for adjusting the brake pedal?
There's not much that really bothers me about driving Herman, but his brakes make me think the seals in the master cylinder are permanently on their last legs. I changed the master cylinder for good measure when the originals were showing a sinking pedal under continuous pressure, but that's the only difference between the old (knackered) and the new cylinder. It's not that they don't work, it's that the travel is way way too long and soft. The front discs and pads are uprated but not high temp items and the fluid is new.
I don't know why they bothered with ABS as I don't see the brakes ever exceeding the limit of mechanical grip from good tyres. Unlike my SD1, a car with notoriously c**p brakes, fitted with V12 Jag front calipers that could seriously stop and lock up if you didn't concentrate (4 pot dual circuit with pistons about 3" diameter on a car weighing 1400kg or so). Never did you feel a lack of confidence in that car.
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I don't know why they bothered with ABS as I don't see the brakes ever exceeding the limit of mechanical grip from good tyres. Unlike my SD1, a car with notoriously c**p brakes, fitted with V12 Jag front calipers that could seriously stop and lock up if you didn't concentrate (4 pot dual circuit with pistons about 3" diameter on a car weighing 1400kg or so). Never did you feel a lack of confidence in that car.
That is just proof that your brakes are not working properly! And it would suggest a master-cylinder fault, whether it's faulty or not bled correctly warrants further investigation.
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I don't know why they bothered with ABS as I don't see the brakes ever exceeding the limit of mechanical grip from good tyres.
Which shows your brakes are not working as they should - I can get my ABS to fire at any speed one premium branded tyres in the dry ???
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It might be worth a pm to Serek on here. He's got a few options depending on wheel size. I have 18's that will accept Audi Q7(huuuuge great bus) front callipers and 359mm discs. But they won't fit 17" wheels.
I have them installed under 17" wheels here
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One thing to consider when comparing with FWD cars is that the weight distribution of a FWD car will be further forward than an Omega's. This may well mean that the braking has to be biased further forwards, making a larger brake setup at the front necessary to provide equivalent resistance to fade.
the last time I weighed an Omega I got 885kg front axle, 585kg rear axle - which was a bit of a surprise to me !
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It might be worth a pm to Serek on here. He's got a few options depending on wheel size. I have 18's that will accept Audi Q7(huuuuge great bus) front callipers and 359mm discs. But they won't fit 17" wheels.
I have them installed under 17" wheels here
Woo, fair play. Didn't think they'd fit. Good stuff. :y
Got a spare pare of calliper adaptors? If needed?
Did they need longer hoses, or hub machining?
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got a drawing of adaptors.
no machining needed
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....... and I made the hoses