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Author Topic: Bigger brakes....?  (Read 6333 times)

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GastronomicKleptomaniac

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #30 on: 15 February 2014, 22:50:14 »

I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...
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chrisgixer

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #31 on: 15 February 2014, 23:06:23 »

I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...

Who? ;D
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GastronomicKleptomaniac

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #32 on: 15 February 2014, 23:26:59 »

I like the initial feel, but I do think they could do with being a bit sharper through the middle of the pedal travel. Having said that, a brake fluid change is on the list of jobs to do when I get Zeke home...

Who? ;D

Haha, force of habit through living with various wimmin* - everything gets a name, my Omega is Zeke, the 190E is Wolfgang... my bike is called Steve, which makes for some interesting text conversations when I tell her I'm out riding Steve for a couple of hours... ;)

*yes, they're all bonkers...
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chrisgixer

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #33 on: 15 February 2014, 23:36:52 »

Does Steve have a nickname? Esta, per chance? ;D
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #34 on: 15 February 2014, 23:59:02 »

There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.

In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.

All things being relative, if there where no cars in the world with more assistance then the omegas brakes would be (.... Still poor. ;D ) ok. Add in some abuse though...thus I know Mr Wood has encountered poor omega brakes. ;)

Yes, but pedal feel, travel and level of assistance is an entirely different aspect of the braking performance than their ability to resist fade in the face of rather more enthusiastic (ab)use. We need to stop confusing the two. The former is an entirely subjective thing, and probably down to the sizing of the master cylinder and servo unit. The latter is simply down to the pad area and that of the metal between them. If the OP's problem is concerned with the former, then bolting on huge disks and calipers won't help (or, if it does, it will be a lucky accident).
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #35 on: 16 February 2014, 00:03:47 »

One thing to consider when comparing with FWD cars is that the weight distribution of a FWD car will be further forward than an Omega's. This may well mean that the braking has to be biased further forwards, making a larger brake setup at the front necessary to provide equivalent resistance to fade.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #36 on: 16 February 2014, 00:35:33 »

There's no shortage of servo assistance on the Omega, IMHO. The pedal has a bit of travel in it, but I find that makes them more progressive and controllable than some cars that have sod all pedal travel yet stand on their nose as soon as you touch the pedal.

In fact, the Omega's brakes are about the same in feel as the brakes on my Westfield, which has disks all round and no assistance. That speaks volumes to me. It's stopping an extra tonne of weight, and needs servo assistance to achieve that, but the servo keeps out of the way in the "feel" department and just delivers assistance.

All things being relative, if there where no cars in the world with more assistance then the omegas brakes would be (.... Still poor. ;D ) ok. Add in some abuse though...thus I know Mr Wood has encountered poor omega brakes. ;)

Yes, but pedal feel, travel and level of assistance is an entirely different aspect of the braking performance than their ability to resist fade in the face of rather more enthusiastic (ab)use. We need to stop confusing the two. The former is an entirely subjective thing, and probably down to the sizing of the master cylinder and servo unit. The latter is simply down to the pad area and that of the metal between them. If the OP's problem is concerned with the former, then bolting on huge disks and calipers won't help (or, if it does, it will be a lucky accident).

Absolutely. Anyone driving my car that knows how to drive, and hence has their own car, complains about the omega brakes. Simply because they are used to their own mostly newer cars. Frankly its a shock to swap around. Even coming back from a two week holiday sees a minor panic at the first junction as the damn thing won't stop. Until I dial back in again.

I wonder if increasing the servo pipe bore size is all that's needed? For those that prefer more servo assistance , that is. (Don't suppose its that simple for one minute)

It's (assistance) something I will be looking at on the project, if things get that far with the rack etc.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #37 on: 16 February 2014, 00:37:25 »

Although didn't someone suggest there is no vacuum on the omega a while back? ;D
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Andy B

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #39 on: 16 February 2014, 01:04:22 »

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chrisgixer

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #40 on: 16 February 2014, 01:40:31 »

Post #1 made me laugh

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyres-and-brakes-13/524251-anyway-to-increase-the-brake-servo-assistance.html

Poster must've driven SWMBO's new C3 ........ definitely on or off  ???

I test drove an Astra, old shape vxr a couple of years ago. Absolutely mental, torque steers like a bitch. Mental power to weight, flat low revs, mental top end.

But on leaving the show room I did explain to the salesman, " ok first off, I'm used to an omega, so brace yourself while I get used to the brakes" first junction nothing behind,  brake early as a test, really gentle, WHAMO. Stopped dead, all three heads flew forward, almost reaching the dash and front seat back. Salesman complains of whiplash, yeah yeah, I did explain. ::)

Quarter of a mile in, totally used to the brakes, nice and progressive, really like them. Powerful, good grip from the sc3's etc etc.

It's just what your used to. But knowing better servo set ups exist.... Take the Mondeo mk1. Massive servo assistance compared to the omega. Trail braking into a turn you can almost make the inside wheel squeal to a tune with your little toe. Power is there. But the capacity to absorb heat is just as lacking as the omega due to disk/calliper size.

To me the omega brakes are pretty shocking tbh. But no, "its a progressive servo set up"  apparently. Oh come off it. They're old and under developed, designed for a car three decades old at release.
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GastronomicKleptomaniac

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #41 on: 16 February 2014, 07:09:45 »

Fond (!) memories of doing the same, when living at home, I used to borrow my mum's Mazda 3 - decent car, but lacking any steering feel... and the brakes were on a hair trigger.
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YZ250

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #42 on: 16 February 2014, 08:17:20 »

The Omega brakes prompt some .......err ..........interesting facial expressions when someone not familiar with them is bringing it to a halt from speed.  ;D
When I swap cars, it takes a couple of miles for me to adjust to the sharpness of the new car, having to apologise to any passenger for flinging them forward at the mere touch of the pedal.  ::)
When my wife drives the Omega she asks if there is something wrong with the brakes.  ::)
In saying that, I'm sure the Omega back wheels have been close to airborne coming to a halt at times so I think it's just a 'feel' thing.
Perhaps I should do actual stopping distance tests to compare the two cars.  :-\
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TheBoy

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #43 on: 16 February 2014, 10:13:59 »

Imagine how I felt when I was unfortunate enough to own an Omega and a Focus at the same time, probably 2 cars at the opposite extremes when it comes to servo assistance. At the first junction, I had to consciously remember which car I was in. Beyond that, I was pretty much tuned in to them - well, as much as you could ever get used to Focus brakes.

I think the Focus was over assisted, ok no effort required to rub you nose on the screen, but no feel/feedback through the brakes (and massive fade after a couple of big stops, but thats not relevant in this conversation). This lack of feel meant under even moderate braking, I found the car in full lockup conditions (no ABS).

The Omega may be considered under assisted, but the feedback is very good (and in good condition, can take a few big stops before fading, but not relevant here). So although more foot effort needed, you can, from very high speed, be teetering on the maximum the tyres have to give.

I guess some prefer a compromise in between.


On a slightly different slant, but related, I find TC pads have no bite on the first application of a journey, which gives the same feeling. Subsequent applications seem OK. EBC pads give the same, worse on the track pads, like Red Stuff, that need a fair amount of heat to get them working. So pads do also have an impact, hence I tend to recommend, for most, TC pads.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Bigger brakes....?
« Reply #44 on: 16 February 2014, 10:24:54 »

Yep, pads certainly have an impact on feel. I put some Mintex 1144s on the Westfield and they vastly reduced the pedal effort required to stop it. Wouldn't last 5 minutes on an Omega, though (and aren't ECE 90 pads, so not a legal fit anyway).

Other than that, you can only tweak the ratios of the master and slave cylinders. Not much mileage in changing the servo. It is what it is, and I'd be very surprised if a drop-in replacement that gives more assistance is available. Less pedal pressure means longer pedal travel, though. :-\
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