Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: terry paget on 07 January 2015, 11:32:03
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My daughter in law has a Rover Streetwise. It last ran mid November when she had a baby. At Christmas she mentioned it would not start. I said I would sort it out. I tried a jump start - engine did not turn. I put in an Omega V6 battery - would not turn. Today I tried to tow start it, engine still would not turn, front wheels just skidded when I dropped the clutch.
What could be wrong with it? Engine could not have seized could it? Could it be a jammed starter? I have heard of it happening, but never known it.
Any suggestions gratefully received. I have towed the car 6 miles back to my place, hopefully to repair it.
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No crank, no start with good battery. Starter be the first place i'd look. And check the engine turns over by hand.
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Take off timing cover,unlikely but cambelt might be snapped,also check clutch cable at gearbox end.I had that with the truck when headgasket went,wouldnt turn over by hand seized solid.
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I would pull spark plugs out and have a good look into bores for water ingress :y
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Yeah I'll go with locked solid - and by tow starting, probably now knackered :(
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Yep, remove the plugs and see if it contains water / will now turn over. If wet, spin it on the starter to remove any water. If not, squirt a bit of plus gas into each cylinder and replace plugs.
Next, I'd remove the starter and check this hasn't jammed, and see if it runs unloaded.
Clutch sounds OK if it will tow with clutch disengaged.
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Thinking water ingress due to rovers dodgy HG's?
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Thinking water ingress due to rovers dodgy HG's?
Possible if the HG had already failed when it was parked up. Thing is, it's not been parked up that long, in the scheme of things. 2 Months? Ok, I can understand that the battery would be flat...
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Thats why i was thinking starter if battery definitely good
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Thanks for all the advice chaps. Keep it coming.
A used starter has just arrived, ordered yesterday in anticipation. To my surprise, it looks like the old inertial engagement sort, not the Omega style pre-engaged starter. I thought inertial engagement had gone out of fashion. That's the sort that used to jam on engagement, isn't it? I recall the advice of putting car into gear and rocking it, but never done it.
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I recall the advice of putting car into gear and rocking it, but never done it.
That used to work on my Allegro when the starter got stuck..
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A few facts. Head gasket was changed at 54626 miles; mileage now is 71929. When I last serviced it, it needed coolant. Today header tank level is low again.
Haynes says starter is pre-engaged type, so I was wrong there.
Car was running fine before baby. Birth was Caesarean section, Emma was advised not to drive for a month, so did not.
Will advise developments
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Might be worth getting the inlet manifold gasket and change that while your under the bonnet,as they can let coolant past.
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I removed all the plugs. the driver's side end plug came out wet, I could see a liquid in the hole. I sucked it out, no smell, tastes like coolant, clear, I got out quite a lot.
I then, with plugs out, tried to crank the engine. It did not turn. I put headlights on, tried again, headlights did not dim, engine did not turn.
Looks to me like head gasket leaking coolant into end cylinder, also starter faulty. Please comment.
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Can you turn it over by pushing it in gear with the plugs out, or is it still siezed?
But yes, a cylinder full of coolant sounds like the head gasket, or that coolant passage that goes into the intake manifold on the K.
Oh, and no dimming of the lights suggests that the starter isn't even trying, so something wrong there too.
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If this is the head gasket on a K series I'll be very surprised.
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Can you turn it over by pushing it in gear with the plugs out, or is it still siezed?
But yes, a cylinder full of coolant sounds like the head gasket, or that coolant passage that goes into the intake manifold on the K.
Oh, and no dimming of the lights suggests that the starter isn't even trying, so something wrong there too.
Engaged 4th gear, pushed car, it moves easily and RH cylinder gurgles. So engine is not seized, and presumably water in cylinder was what prevented it turning before.
Reading Haynes changing the HG sounds horrific, bit too much for me. You mention a coolant passage into the inlet manifold on the K. I am not aware of that, and do not understand it, but it gives me hope! Meanwhile I am tempted to change the starter, as I have bought a spare.
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Can you turn it over by pushing it in gear with the plugs out, or is it still siezed?
But yes, a cylinder full of coolant sounds like the head gasket, or that coolant passage that goes into the intake manifold on the K.
Oh, and no dimming of the lights suggests that the starter isn't even trying, so something wrong there too.
Engaged 4th gear, pushed car, it moves easily and RH cylinder gurgles. So engine is not seized, and presumably water in cylinder was what prevented it turning before.
Reading Haynes changing the HG sounds horrific, bit too much for me. You mention a coolant passage into the inlet manifold on the K. I am not aware of that, and do not understand it, but it gives me hope! Meanwhile I am tempted to change the starter, as I have bought a spare.
Head gasket job is quite easy on a K series lump,its more important to check liner heights when the head is off to determine what time of gasket is needed,lots of folk fit the multi layer steel gasket thinking its a miracle cure but if liner heights are low it won't work and the latest elastomer type is required
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Head gasket is easy,will need a cam locking kit tho,and change waterpump aswell.
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Even i have changed a HG on a k series. so if i can, anyone can lol :)
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Head gasket job is quite easy on a K series lump,its more important to check liner heights when the head is off to determine what time of gasket is needed,lots of folk fit the multi layer steel gasket thinking its a miracle cure but if liner heights are low it won't work and the latest elastomer type is required
Yes, all the more so given that it's had a (relatively) recent HG change.
Memories are vague, but I believe there's a water jacket around the intake manifold that pre-heats it, and there's a connection through the intake manifold gasket that connects up with a water gallery in the head. This can leak and give similar symptoms. If that cylinder stopped with the intake valves open, and the water connection was leaking into the intake manifold...
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Head gasket job is quite easy on a K series lump,its more important to check liner heights when the head is off to determine what time of gasket is needed,lots of folk fit the multi layer steel gasket thinking its a miracle cure but if liner heights are low it won't work and the latest elastomer type is required
Yes, all the more so given that it's had a (relatively) recent HG change.
Memories are vague, but I believe there's a water jacket around the intake manifold that pre-heats it, and there's a connection through the intake manifold gasket that connects up with a water gallery in the head. This can leak and give similar symptoms. If that cylinder stopped with the intake valves open, and the water connection was leaking into the intake manifold...
IME when the inlet manifold gasket leaks, its usually nearer No1, not No4. And it leaks externally.
Been a long time since I've had one apart, so I may be talking 'dangle berries' of course
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Were liners a real issue on this engine?
I remember a story our teacher told us about going round in circles with coolant in the oil. Did HG job and still doing it lol ended up with the sump off to view coolant dripping from liner.
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Ps, that was on a Rover but unsure if K series.
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The switching wire on Rover starters often makes a very poor electrical and mechanical connection.Having been standing in wintry weather will not have helped. Replace the large spade connector and clean the terminal with some emery cloth(or similar).
This also affects the smaller Renault engines, especially in clits.
Coolant in the cylinders isn't a good sign, and your rather brutal treatment is unlikely to have helped.
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Were liners a real issue on this engine?
I remember a story our teacher told us about going round in circles with coolant in the oil. Did HG job and still doing it lol ended up with the sump off to view coolant dripping from liner.
Iirc if you turn crank when head is off your meant to use a locking device to stop liners moving up.
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Were liners a real issue on this engine?
I remember a story our teacher told us about going round in circles with coolant in the oil. Did HG job and still doing it lol ended up with the sump off to view coolant dripping from liner.
Iirc if you turn crank when head is off your meant to use a locking device to stop liners moving up.
Got ya!
Either he negated to use the tool or that was the original problem all along but didn't present itself to the naked eye.
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with car standing still ,,if you put clutch down will it select all gears if it does not then possibly clutch plate stuck to flywheel due to dampness although normaly by towing it and dropping the clutch pedal normaly un-jams it...however if it does select all gears then may be problem with engine....water in bores which will cause hydraulic compression....thus will not turn over,,,take out plugs and inspect the bores for water. :-\ :-\
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Were liners a real issue on this engine?
I remember a story our teacher told us about going round in circles with coolant in the oil. Did HG job and still doing it lol ended up with the sump off to view coolant dripping from liner.
Iirc if you turn crank when head is off your meant to use a locking device to stop liners moving up.
Got ya!
Either he negated to use the tool or that was the original problem all along but didn't present itself to the naked eye.
From your comments when you were on the course, I'm not sure I'd trust your tutor with my car ;)
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Were liners a real issue on this engine?
I remember a story our teacher told us about going round in circles with coolant in the oil. Did HG job and still doing it lol ended up with the sump off to view coolant dripping from liner.
Iirc if you turn crank when head is off your meant to use a locking device to stop liners moving up.
Got ya!
Either he negated to use the tool or that was the original problem all along but didn't present itself to the naked eye.
From your comments when you were on the course, I'm not sure I'd trust your tutor with my car ;)
Haha! Me neither! ;D
Not wanting to hijack the thread but if I had to hand on heart sum up the tutors....
One was a classic flat rate tech. One was a bloody good mechanic but a bit mad. And the last...always questioned what he said. :-X
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I have changed the starter. I checked the original starter with jump leads, it fizzed a bit, but did not engage or turn. The one I had bought off e-bay engaged and turned. When fitted to the car it turned the engine (plugs still out) and right hand cylinder sprayed water all over the shop.
The external water pipe goes enters the inlet manifold in line with the right hand cylinder (driver's side, is that 1 or 4?) I can imagine if the inlet valves on that pot were open for six weeks and the manifold gasket was leaking between water channel and air channel at that point water would leak into the cylinder. I presume at the other end the water enters the head through the gasket, and could again leak into the cylinder.
I am hoping that is my leak, not in the head gasket. It being in only one cylinder, and an end cylinder, is encouraging. Is there any way I could check this?
Please advise.
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Hard to say really,could be worth changing gasket and be done with it,at least you know it will give a few more years service.
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Head gasket job is quite easy on a K series lump,its more important to check liner heights when the head is off to determine what time of gasket is needed,lots of folk fit the multi layer steel gasket thinking its a miracle cure but if liner heights are low it won't work and the latest elastomer type is required
Yes, all the more so given that it's had a (relatively) recent HG change.
Memories are vague, but I believe there's a water jacket around the intake manifold that pre-heats it, and there's a connection through the intake manifold gasket that connects up with a water gallery in the head. This can leak and give similar symptoms. If that cylinder stopped with the intake valves open, and the water connection was leaking into the intake manifold...
IME when the inlet manifold gasket leaks, its usually nearer No1, not No4. And it leaks externally.
Been a long time since I've had one apart, so I may be talking 'dangle berries' of course
Haynes calls the timing belt end cylinder no. 1. That is the driver's side end, the one that is full of water. It is this end that has the water pipe into the inlet manifold. That surely means that the water leaves the inlet manifold at no. 4 end, and it will be here that it passes through the inlet manifold gasket, so nowhere near my cylinder full of water. So my leak must be in the cylinder head gasket. Please tell me I am wrong.
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Will you swap it for a diesel Zafira... :-X
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Will you swap it for a diesel Zafira... :-X
Would that be a rather pedestrian example?
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Will you swap it for a diesel Zafira... :-X
Would that be a rather pedestrian example?
Might be... ::)
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I thank you all for your help, gentlemen. It looks like the head gasket is leaking into no. 1 cylinder, has been for a while, possibly ever since her home mechanic in Chippenham replaced it. As long as she ran it every day it was OK, just needed regular coolant topping up. Leaving it standing for 6 weeks allowed no.1 to fill with coolant, blocking rotation.
I may have damaged it with my attempted tow start. I am tempted to blow all all the coolant by cranking it, replace the plugs, add some coolant, and see how it runs. Please advise.
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Yep, see if it runs. Nothing to lose.
Had it hydraulic locked while running it would almost certainly have bent a rod, but it has only had the force of the starter motor on it, which won't have damaged it, by my reckoning.
I'm guessing the head gasket was swapped without checking the liner heights, and has failed again.
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Yep, see if it runs. Nothing to lose.
Had it hydraulic locked while running it would almost certainly have bent a rod, but it has only had the force of the starter motor on it, which won't have damaged it, by my reckoning.
I'm guessing the head gasket was swapped without checking the liner heights, and has failed again.
Think Terry said he's tried a pull start too :-X,worth firing it up and see if all cylinders present and correct or compression test if it won't run :y
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Think Terry said he's tried a pull start too :-X,worth firing it up and see if all cylinders present and correct or compression test if it won't run :y
front wheels just skidded when I dropped the clutch
Ahh! Right you are. :-[ Still worth a try IMHO.
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Think Terry said he's tried a pull start too :-X,worth firing it up and see if all cylinders present and correct or compression test if it won't run :y
To quote from the original post:
Today I tried to tow start it, engine still would not turn, front wheels just skidded when I dropped the clutch.
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My daughter in law has a Rover Streetwise. It last ran mid November when she had a baby. At Christmas she mentioned it would not start. I said I would sort it out. I tried a jump start - engine did not turn. I put in an Omega V6 battery - would not turn. Today I tried to tow start it, engine still would not turn, front wheels just skidded when I dropped the clutch.
What could be wrong with it? Engine could not have seized could it? Could it be a jammed starter? I have heard of it happening, but never known it.
Any suggestions gratefully received. I have towed the car 6 miles back to my place, hopefully to repair it.
That could turn out to be an expensive mistake :-\
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Never, ever ignore topping up coolant on a K series. The system cannot loose enough without eating the HG.
No1 is cambelt end, 4 is gearbox end
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I put in the plugs, but it would not start.
I checked compression. No. 1 - 10 bar
2 - 1 bar
3 - 3 bar
4 - 10 bar
Looks like head gasket to me.
Still getting a bit of water in no. 1
Comments please.
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I would say youre right but if you can get a leak down test done then that'll confirm it 100%.
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Head gasket shot,just change it,days work if not skimming head,also best time to flush rad out incase its got sealent in it from previous hgf's
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Even i have changed a HG on a k series. so if i can, anyone can lol :)
Thanks Webby. I am tempted to have a go. Are there any major difficulties, or special tools required?
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Cam locking kit needed. And as above there appears to be a tool to stop the liners coming out. But as mine was done on a college heap I didn't bother . . . . Wouldn't have had that available anyways ::)
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Can locking kit from amazon,ebay,local motorfactors ,so long as you dont move pistons after head is of you wont need to worry about the liners,but you do need to measure the height to use correct head gasket,also used the correct coolant which is pink and contains oat.
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
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I put in the plugs, but it would not start.
I checked compression. No. 1 - 10 bar
2 - 1 bar
3 - 3 bar
4 - 10 bar
Looks like head gasket to me.
Still getting a bit of water in no. 1
Comments please.
Cylinders 2 & 3 are doing sod all
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Porridge isn't going to help the cooling system is it ! ;)
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Porridge isn't going to help the cooling system is it ! ;)
It should stop the leaks. A vegan alternative to cracking an egg in the rad. ;) :y
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I put in the plugs, but it would not start.
I checked compression. No. 1 - 10 bar
2 - 1 bar
3 - 3 bar
4 - 10 bar
Looks like head gasket to me.
Still getting a bit of water in no. 1
Comments please.
Cylinders 2 & 3 are doing sod all
With compression that low I'd be wondering if more than just the HG was knackered..
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Snap, although its possible the coolant has blown the fire rings between the two cylinders.
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Snap, although its possible the coolant has blown the fire rings between the two cylinders.
What and where are the fire rings?
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I put in the plugs, but it would not start.
I checked compression. No. 1 - 10 bar
2 - 1 bar
3 - 3 bar
4 - 10 bar
Looks like head gasket to me.
Still getting a bit of water in no. 1
Comments please.
Cylinders 2 & 3 are doing sod all
With compression that low I'd be wondering if more than just the HG was knackered..
I imagined it was a leak between 2 and 3 in the HG. What else might it be?.
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Snap, although its possible the coolant has blown the fire rings between the two cylinders.
What and where are the fire rings?
Look at a head gasket .... the area around the "holes" that are the cylinders are reinforced - looks like a few layers of "folded metal" .. those circular reinforcements are actually the "fire rings" .. they take the brunt of the forces trying to sneak out between the block and the heads !!
If the burn through at the closest point then the comprsing cylinder is directly connected to an exhausting one ... hence no compression ...
crap description but I HTH :)
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Other options would be rings (but it would have been smoking like a train) or valve seats..
A leak down test with all the plugs out should give you a good idea, along with a wet compression test. If the leak down test had air coming out of the intake or exhaust then valve seats, if it's coming out of the adjacent spark plug hole then it's the HG gone between cylinders.
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Can I buy a flywheel lock, or perhaps make one? Would it go in the starter hole?
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Can I buy a flywheel lock, or perhaps make one? Would it go in the starter hole?
The cam lock is all you need for the K Terry,it slots between the cams to stop them turning,the crank is well marked at the pulley end,just bear in mind that this engine is timed at 90 degrees btdc :y
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Can I buy a flywheel lock, or perhaps make one? Would it go in the starter hole?
Possible to improvise. There is an access plate to flywheel. Flywheel needs locking to undo crank pulley
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Although not absolutely essential, a flywheel lock makes life easier.
4x4, my K ran fine on GM red, which isn't OAT. Just ensure all OAT is flushed out
Can I buy a flywheel lock, or perhaps make one? Would it go in the starter hole?
Possible to improvise. There is an access plate to flywheel. Flywheel needs locking to undo crank pulley
Thanks TB. I have Streetwise Haynes open before me, 2A5.5. It depicts the home made crankshaft locking device, tells me to 'with the flat bar on the bolt, pass the bolt through the empty hole in the flywheel housing. Fit and tighten the nut so that the bar is protruding in front of the teeth on the flywheel ring gear.' Does he mean use one of the holes that held the screws that held the cover? I see no other holes in the flywheel housing.
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I've just checked the crankshaft pulley bolt torque - 205Nm! How do I get that off? All the while holding the crankshaft stationary with a screwdriver in the starter gear.
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Use the force young jedi
Well the starter,long breaker bar,impact socket,wedge it so it will undo the bolt,and then turn over the engine which should then crack the bolt free,failing that put it in 5th gear,get some1 to apply brakes very hard and then undo :y
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I've just checked the crankshaft pulley bolt torque - 205Nm! How do I get that off? All the while holding the crankshaft stationary with a screwdriver in the starter gear.
A. 3/8" ratchet would undo that ;D seriously, a breaker bar will be fine :y it's about half the torque of an Omega front hub nut... ::)
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I've just checked the crankshaft pulley bolt torque - 205Nm! How do I get that off? All the while holding the crankshaft stationary with a screwdriver in the starter gear.
That's only about wheel nut tight for tyre monkeys. :-X
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Use the force young jedi
Well the starter,long breaker bar,impact socket,wedge it so it will undo the bolt,and then turn over the engine which should then crack the bolt free,failing that put it in 5th gear,get some1 to apply brakes very hard and then undo :y
Haynes tells me to lock the crankshaft with a screwdriver in the starter gear supported by a made up tool mounted somehow. Meanwhile I have locked the camshaft sprockets and the cam belt is still on, so the crank must not turn. You reckon 5th gear and brakes hard on would do, would not break anything. Sounds much easier to me.
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Woops! Car is front wheel drive, and the front of the car is on axle stands. I suppose the brakes should hold it, though.
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Woops! Car is front wheel drive, and the front of the car is on axle stands. I suppose the brakes should hold it, though.
If it all goes pear shaped, you will take pictures, won't you? ;D
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Dont use cam lock while trying to undo crankbolt :y
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Dont use cam lock while trying to undo crankbolt :y
Good advice, thank you. I am just following Haynes. He says 5. align timing marks on camshafts; 6 Fit camshaft locking too; 7 Remove crankshaft pulley. I am working at 90 degrees BTDC so all pistons half way up bores, nice and safe. Later on he says remove camshaft locking tool and turn camshafts to reveal head bolts. Like you say, do not insert cmashaft locking tool.
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Use the force young jedi
Well the starter,long breaker bar,impact socket,wedge it so it will undo the bolt,and then turn over the engine which should then crack the bolt free,failing that put it in 5th gear,get some1 to apply brakes very hard and then undo :y
Haynes tells me to lock the crankshaft with a screwdriver in the starter gear supported by a made up tool mounted somehow. Meanwhile I have locked the camshaft sprockets and the cam belt is still on, so the crank must not turn. You reckon 5th gear and brakes hard on would do, would not break anything. Sounds much easier to me.
Might the clutch slip?
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Any access to a nut gun Terry?,one of them(decent one) will undo crank pulley easily but as has been said do not insert cam locks until after pulley has been loosened.
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Any access to a nut gun Terry?,one of them(decent one) will undo crank pulley easily but as has been said do not insert cam locks until after pulley has been loosened.
Yes, I have a compressor and a big (3/4") impact wrench. I bought it to undo the crankshaft nut on my last Senator, but it failed. So you recommend 5th gear engaged, footbrake hard on (wife) and wrench on max torque, camshft tool not in place. Sounds good to me.
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Any access to a nut gun Terry?,one of them(decent one) will undo crank pulley easily but as has been said do not insert cam locks until after pulley has been loosened.
Yes, I have a compressor and a big (3/4") impact wrench. I bought it to undo the crankshaft nut on my last Senator, but it failed. So you recommend 5th gear engaged, footbrake hard on (wife) and wrench on max torque, camshft tool not in place. Sounds good to me.
Three quarter gun should make very light work of that,I have a Snap on half inch electric gun and it undoes K pulley nuts very easily
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Woops! Car is front wheel drive, and the front of the car is on axle stands. I suppose the brakes should hold it, though.
If it all goes pear shaped, you will take pictures, won't you? ;D
Oh yes. I think it has gone pear shaped, those compression figures were worrying. When I drained the coolant it had little colour to it. I wonder if she has been topping it up with water, it got very dilute, and in the frosts before Christmas it froze. I shall find out when I get the head off. Head could be cracked, may need planing, who knows.I expect it to be not worth repairing, this is why I am doing it myself.
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This is why I said get a crank locking tool, as I found it 2 person job to lock crank with improvised tool and undo bolt.
Crank imagine that expensive ? Or Google image of one, and fabricate
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This is why I said get a crank locking tool, as I found it 2 person job to lock crank with improvised tool and undo bolt.
Crank imagine that expensive ? Or Google image of one, and fabricate
Yes. That is the course I was following. Haynes depicts the tool. I have removed the plate opposite the starter. I could fabricate the tool Haynes describes. I cannot see how to ayttach it. Anyway I would have to lie under the car holding a screwdriver between starter ring teeth while a gorilla heaves on a breaker bar. Wife refuses since she pulled a muscle heaving down an Omega wishbone for me. Nut gun sounds easier, doesn't it! Cam belt is still on, I have removed sprocket locking tool. I cannot see why I should bother to lock crankshaft, can you? I am puzzled why Haynes says lock cams with tool, then remove pulley, in that order.
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Nut gun failed! Gun is a Campbell Hausfield 3/4" impact wrench, max torque 1,000 ft.lbs. Set on max torque, still failed to turn nut. I give up. Is it worth applying heat?
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Even my Makita 1/2" would undo that. I once used a 3/4" breaker bar and remarked how industrial it looked.
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Nut gun failed! Gun is a Campbell Hausfield 3/4" impact wrench, max torque 1,000 ft.lbs. Set on max torque, still failed to turn nut. I give up. Is it worth applying heat?
You were using an appropriately sized compressor, hose and connectors for such a large gun? As you won't get anywhere near that torque without.
Even the cheap 1/2" ones benefit from large bore hose.
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Nut gun failed! Gun is a Campbell Hausfield 3/4" impact wrench, max torque 1,000 ft.lbs. Set on max torque, still failed to turn nut. I give up. Is it worth applying heat?
You were using an appropriately sized compressor, hose and connectors for such a large gun? As you won't get anywhere near that torque without.
Even the cheap 1/2" ones benefit from large bore hose.
Good point, Nick W. Compressor is a decent size, claims to be 12cfm at 100PSI, gun demands 36SCFM continuous but average 6.1CFM, air inlet is 1/4", ok so far. However supply is via a coil of 20m plastic hose, 14mm OD, ID unknown, sounds too long and this, don't it? I have found on a shelf a never used 10M length of 10mm 2MPA hose, sounds worth a try. Tried it. Air gun turned engine slowly. Put wife in car engage 4th gear, put foot hard on brake pedal, applied air to gun - nut did not turn. I give up. Should I try heat?
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If a breaker bat and scaffold pole are man enough to shift an Omega hub nut, then that should be your first choice :y
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If a breaker bat and scaffold pole are man enough to shift an Omega hub nut, then that should be your first choice :y
Danger here is lifting the car off its axle stands, Al. It's a fairly light car, access to the crankshaft pulley is only possible with the front of the car on axle stands and the offside wheel off. Give me a scaffolding pole and even I could heave the car over. Also it needs a 5" extension to get the socket on the nut. That would make the scaffolding pole liable to twist off the nut. I think nut gun is the best route. I cannot understand why mine fails.
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Fair dos, but you only need to crack it ;)
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I would try a little bit of heat on the nut and give it another go with the impact gun. As it`s been pretty cold and your car has been stood a while everything will be as tight as a submarine door, you can`t drive it to warm the block up so try a blow torch just to try and expand the nut a little.
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Sod the bottom pulley, whip the head off, you only need the pulley off to refit and time everything.
Just set the crank to 90 before/after TDC and pull the belt.
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Sod the bottom pulley, whip the head off, you only need the pulley off to refit and time everything.
Just set the crank to 90 before/after TDC and pull the belt.
Thanks Mark. I think that explains how the guy did it before. There is a paint mark on the lower pulley which is probably how he retimed it. After pulling the cam belt and removing the head there is no reason to turn the crank, in fact it sounds wery unwise. So I can then remove bits from the head, expose the head bolts, slacken the central bolts, then turn the cams to reveal the rest, remove the cam sprockets, remove head bolts and remove head. Inspect head, and if good, replace hed gasket, replace head, replace cam sprockets, turn cams to allow insertion of locking tool, replace belt. Turn engine two turns; if lines still aligned, Job done. Does that sound right to you?
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All the above, having first set the engine at 90 degrees BTDC by aligning and locking the cam sprockets.
Having done this, I am tempted to attach n/s front wheel and lower car to ground. Then chock front wheels and put car in 5th gear to ensure crank does nor turn, and facilitate jobs on head, all done from above. Is this a good idea?
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All the above, having first set the engine at 90 degrees BTDC by aligning and locking the cam sprockets.
Having done this, I am tempted to attach n/s front wheel and lower car to ground. Then chock front wheels and put car in 5th gear to ensure crank does nor turn, and facilitate jobs on head, all done from above. Is this a good idea?
I wouldn't bother with the in gear chocking wheels bit as there's too much gear lash to keep crank locked,better to just mark it well with tipped or similar to give you a reference point,onecams are locked.
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All the above, having first set the engine at 90 degrees BTDC by aligning and locking the cam sprockets.
Having done this, I am tempted to attach n/s front wheel and lower car to ground. Then chock front wheels and put car in 5th gear to ensure crank does nor turn, and facilitate jobs on head, all done from above. Is this a good idea?
I wouldn't bother with the in gear chocking wheels bit as there's too much gear lash to keep crank locked,better to just mark it well with tipped or similar to give you a reference point,onecams are locked.
Thanks. Will do in the morning
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I rang the man who changed the head gasket June 2012. He agrees with me that the car is probably not worth repairing. However I would like to get the head off and confirm this. I will advice of progress.
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If your going to go to all the effort of taking the head off, then surely it must be worth a bit more effort to put it back together with a new gasket.... :-\
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If your going to go to all the effort of taking the head off, then surely it must be worth a bit more effort to put it back together with a new gasket.... :-\
If the head is all right I shall of course rebuild the engine. It's just that the symptons and the car's history have braced me for the worst. Emma would have scrapped it two weeks ago, I said I would have a look at it and see if it could be saved.
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Sod the bottom pulley, whip the head off, you only need the pulley off to refit and time everything.
Just set the crank to 90 before/after TDC and pull the belt.
Thanks Marks DTM, that is what I shall do. I have removed exhaust manifold and most things connecting head to car. I have removed the head bolts. I am having trouble removing the cam sprocket bolts, holding the sprockets with my home made tool. There is no reason why I should not use my big nut gun, is there?
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Nut gun no good due to access. I have mde the Haynes tool, basically a fork with two prongs (bolts) to one side that engage in holes in the sprockets to stop it turning, but it bent before the nut loosened. Nut torque is 65Nm, quite tight. So I cannot remove the cam sprockets at the moment. I could make a more robust too, boring. I wonder if there is a tool in my tool box that would do the job. Any suggestions?
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65nm isn't that tight :-\
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Maybe not, but that's the torque it was tightened to in 2002. 12 years rust makes it harder to undo today. Bit like the crankshaft pulley not. Some men would put in the crankshaft locking tool to lock the sprockets, but that seems unwise and Haynes advises against it.
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Is there a hex on the shaft to accept a spanner?
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Is there a hex on the shaft to accept a spanner?
No, but there are what Haynes calls 'reluctor segments'. I had to turn the camshaft before loosening head bolts 3 & 4 because they were in the way. They seem to be part of the camshaft, they are not cams, and their function is not clear. I can nearly get a 24mm spanner on them ( bit tight). I cannot see why I should not hold the camshaft with a spanner on them. Only mystery is why Haynes does not recommend it, and what 'reluctor segments' do. Great idea, Al.
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I have looked at again. 'The reluctor segment' is in the middle of camshaft, is cast into it, and has no obvious function. A 24mm spanner will not quite go on, a 1" spanner goes on easily and I reckon should hold it. 15/16" would be too small. I googled the defintion of 'reluctor' and nothing came up, only reluctant.
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Brilliant, Al. Fitting a 1" spanner on the reluctor, shimmed with a 3 point (I am a printer) shim held it firmly, then I easily loosened the nut holding on the camshaft sprocket.
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I have looked at again. 'The reluctor segment' is in the middle of camshaft, is cast into it, and has no obvious function. A 24mm spanner will not quite go on, a 1" spanner goes on easily and I reckon should hold it. 15/16" would be too small. I googled the defintion of 'reluctor' and nothing came up, only reluctant.
I have an idea that a reluctor is 'usually' a rotating segmented ring used for signalling speed of rotation via a pickup, as per ABS for example, although I'm probably talking through my hat as usual. :-X
http://www.reluctorrings.com/
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Head is off, thanks to all for help. There appears to be a clean track from water channel to cylinder no. 1, which fits the sympton. Pic follows.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3yhk6ou1gat494s/gasketTRACK.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3yhk6ou1gat494s/gasketTRACK.jpg?dl=0)
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Could be a cheap gasket used,might be worth just refitting new gasket and go from there
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Wow, that is an impressively clean 'washed' track! I don't think I've ever seen a tell-tale quite that obvious when I've pulled a HG off.
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Gentlemen, I know it's asking a lot of Omega men, but have you by any chance any idea which head gasket I should fit to a 2004 Streetwise 1.4? It seems that originally it was fitted with a steel elastomer gasket. I read the K engine fitted to the Freelander was fitted with a stainless steel laminated gasket after 2006. The gasket which came off was a laminated stainless steel gasket. The Rover Forum is unclear on this matter, they say use the elastomer gasket unless the cylinders are more than 003" proud of the block.
Haynes says I must measure the length of the head bolts. Screwed hand tight into the block their heads should be no more than 97mm above the block; if longer, they should be replaced.
Please advise!
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If in doubt use the latest version of the elastomer gasket,its much more tolerant of low liner height,Payen BW750 is the one you need if going that route.
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If in doubt use the latest version of the elastomer gasket,its much more tolerant of low liner height,Payen BW750 is the one you need if going that route.
The older versions are red,latest is blue :y
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Be safe use new stretch bolts :y
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Thank you gentlemen. I have ordered a BW750 gasket, blue, and a set of 10 new head bolts.
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Thank you gentlemen. I have ordered a BW750 gasket, blue, and a set of 10 new head bolts.
Good luck with it Terry,hope it all ends well.
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Thanks for the advice and encouragement.
This engine is not so primitive as I expected. I used to run BMC A series cast iron lumps. This Rover has an alloy head and block, 16 valves and a plastic inlet manifold. It also has an oil rail, which resides in the sump above the oil, and I think contains the threads for the head bolts. This has been updated for a stiffer item. The exhaust manifold is a tubes and plate affair, not the cast lump on Omegas that eventually cracks. Pics follow.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bsud94yfw7a7asc/block50%25.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bsud94yfw7a7asc/block50%25.jpg?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hvadq6u1jpe2i4w/manifolds50%25.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hvadq6u1jpe2i4w/manifolds50%25.jpg?dl=0)
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Pay close attention to the head mating surface Terry,make sure that the gasket fire rings haven't left an imprint in the surface,if it has then have it skimmed but then fit a stainless steel head saver shim as the skimming will leave the head surface "soft",the shim is glued to the head with Wellseal jointing compond and restores the hard surface for the fire rings to bear against.
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Thanks Henryd. I can detect no deformation of the head where the fire rings were, using a straight edge. In fact, the head seems impressively level.
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Thanks Henryd. I can detect no deformation of the head where the fire rings were, using a straight edge. In fact, the head seems impressively level.
Thats good news although if the head has been skimmed in the past I would still be tempted to use a head saver,they aren't very expensive and come in a couple of different thicknesses
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-K-SERIES-ALL-ENGINE-SIZES-CYLINDER-HEAD-SAVERS-/171044945417?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27d312be09
Not that cheap I know but the tube of sealer is a tenner's worth :y
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Thanks again. I have just rung the man who did the previous head gasket job, and he did have the head skimmed. He was surprised at my question, seemed a bit shirty, said of course he did, that's what they were taught in college. He used the most up to date gasket too, the stainless steel multilayer one. He enquired whether I was a mechanic, no, I said, I am a printer, last did a head gasket in 1975 on a Ford Escort. He said things had changed a lot since then.
Head still looks dead flat, you say it may have gone soft where the fire rings sit and would benefit from the applied 0.5mm shim. It says apply to the block except on K class Rovers, where it should be applied to the head. Have you experience of these shims?
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Thanks again, henryd. I tossed your suggestion on the small Rover Streetwise Forum. Kayleigh, a company that changes K series head gaskets for a living, discouraged following the head saver route. It seems important that the cylinders remains 0.003" proud of the block; if less the Elastomer gasket should be used, not the newer laminated stainless steel one. If the liners sink below block level the engine should be replaced. Now I wonder how the liners sink? There is talk of a new inproved oil rail. I gather the oil rail resides in the sump, and contains the threads for the head bolts. I wonder if the oil rail supports the cylinders, and it slowly deforms, allowing them to sink. Any thoughts?
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Woops! Car is front wheel drive, and the front of the car is on axle stands. I suppose the brakes should hold it, though.
If it all goes pear shaped, you will take pictures, won't you? ;D
Not gone pear shaped yet. Without removing the crankshaft pulley nut I removed the cam belt, camshaft pulleys, and removed the head. Took advice, found liners barely above block so bought Payen 750 blue Elastomer gasket and new head bolts. Reassembled everything, put water in radiator, put in battery, turned key, and engine started . Warmed it up, took for test drive, all OK. Allowed to cool, drained water and put in ethylene glycol OAT antifreeze. Engine idling fast when hot, so something wrong there, I suspect air idle control valve, so will replace that.
Everything looks good. I worry that the man who changed HG 2 years ago and also changed cambelt must have got off the crank pulley nut, while now I cannot remove it. Strange.
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Well done Terry, good result. :y :y :y
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Yep,nice one Terry :y
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Good work,glad you got there and all sorted :y
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Sounds a good result after all your hard work,well done.
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Thanks for the kind words, chaps, and thanks for all the advice and encouragement.
I now have replaced the AICV with a good used one, and the car is going well. For £100 this car is back on the road, hopefully for a few more years. Here she is, in front of a local landmark.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5yqml7p5d7y3vi/Rover50%25.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5yqml7p5d7y3vi/Rover50%25.jpg?dl=0)
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Well done Terry :y