Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tunnie on 25 October 2015, 16:29:07
-
Just want to double check, how far you compress these. As they don't tighten up so to speak, I've just been guessing, looking at the 3.2 for reference ;D
I just swapped the top mounts back to the GM's - I think they are quieter, not sure, will have to wait until my morning commute.
But for reference this is how I've currently done them....
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Suspension/Bush/20151025_154809388_iOS.jpg)
About right? :-\
-
Don't they have a steel spacer that goes right through the rubber bushes, I tightened mine till they locked up.
Looks about the same as yours though.
-
Spacer only on Estate I thought?
-
Spacer only on Estate I thought?
Nope...
Fit the spacer suggested with all the other parts and your knock will go away... Assuming you haven't already 'dangle berries'ed the lower half of the upper mount ::)
At least you now know why it was knocking :-X
-
Spacer definitely part of the necessary. Not sure if they're available separately to the rubbers - £29 for the set I got from VX, IIRC.
-
Oh. :-[ :-[
Spacers were not on the ones I took off :-\ - They have been fine for 4/5 years. Changed them with a fatty admin ages ago.
-
Cause the guide for the Saloon does not mention the spacer...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90587.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90587.0)
I knew Estates had them, cause I did the guide on that...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=103210.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=103210.0)
-
Never mind the guides... There's at least two recent threads detailing the parts, part numbers and differences... With pics...
Still should be a nice easy fix ;)
Don't forget you need the spacers to suit the mounting kit you fitted... Saloon ones are longer.
-
Guide needs updating then, but it is an easy fix. I swapped the top mounts over in mins, might do it before work in the morning.
All kits I have are saloon, nothing Estate.
Searching find this thread...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=43169.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=43169.0)
Saloon fitting is identical to estate, then?
Lower metal disc + spacer insert + large lower rubber bush, insert shock into boot.
Lower bush + disc + nut.
Current Saloon guide references none of that, just to put the large rubber washer on and insert into the boot.
-
Guide needs updating then, but it is an easy fix. I swapped the top mounts over in mins, might do it before work in the morning.
All kits I have are saloon, nothing Estate.
Searching find this thread...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=43169.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=43169.0)
Saloon fitting is identical to estate, then?
Lower metal disc + large lower rubber bush + Spacer sleeve, insert shock into boot.
UPPER bush + disc + nut.
Current Saloon guide references none of that, just to put the large rubber washer on and insert into the boot.
Corrected to avoid ambiguity ;)
Note the following image...
Parts, in order of fitment, left to right... saloon below, estate above.
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/IMG_20150426_132411_zpsntty7br9.jpg) ::)
Cba to link to the thread it's in as I will be up again at 02:40 :-X
-
Ta. :y Get some kip :)
I'll try and fit them right in the morning. If I run out of time, I'll take the 3.2 ;D
-
You're welcome :y
-
I thought to ensure correct fitment and compression of the rubber, there was a measurement from the top off the shaft to the top of the nut? :o
-
Well no time like the present, I just popped out now and re-done the whole top mount on both sides. Including getting tools out, 20 mins all done.
Looking forward to drive in tomorrow, see how it is. :)
-
Well, worse than it's ever been now. Rattling like a good-un down the industrial estate road near me. :( >:(
Pushed shock down last night, on went the disc, I pre fitted the space saver sleeve in the lower large bush, refitted. Making sure it popped up nicely in the boot, so that the top lip of the large bush poked through nicely and made sure the thread part was not touching any of the body.
See here with disc on and bush on...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Suspension/Bush/20151026_082417876_iOS.jpg)
Up top, the other round bush is on, then disc then tightened it up. I did not torque it up, just did it up 'tight'
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Suspension/Bush/20151026_082452800_iOS.jpg)
Could I have done it too tight? - I felt it lock up. :-\ - Sounded as if something was really loose, smooth roads fine, but anything rough un-even and it's rattling.
-
I'm no expert on this, but could it be that if fitted without the bush before the rubber is now compressed?
-
Should add I inspected the condition of the lower bush, looked and felt same as day I took it out of the bag. Somehow the top threaded part must be banging against the spacer sleeve. :-\
Tempted to wrap the threaded part in something, to cushion it in the sleeve as a test. :-\
-
I'm no expert on this, but could it be that if fitted without the bush before the rubber is now compressed?
It always had the bush on both ends, but as per the current Saloon guide states, no mention was made of the lower disc. So that was not fitted before, nor was the spacer. When inspecting it when re-fitting, it felt/looked no different that before.
It's not the upward compression that makes the noise, over a speed bump it's silent. :-\
It's only rough bouncy roads it does it. :-\ - Even on a rough surface on the motorway I can hear it's not right
-
Summat in your top pick looks wrong... But basically you tighten it down so that the spacer is almost squashed between the two washers... If both top and bottom washer are indeed present tighten it down solid ;)
-
Summat in your top pick looks wrong... But basically you tighten it down so that the spacer is almost squashed between the two washers... If both top and bottom washer are indeed present tighten it down solid ;)
That's what I did. :-\
It sounds almost like the door pin type noise, but on a bigger scale.
Sounds to me as if the shaft at the top of the shock is moving around, inside the spacer?
But you say "almost squashed" between the spacers, I popped the spacer inside the bush first, so the spacer is resting on the bottom washer. Should that not be the case?
-
Spacer should be jammed between the washers so no movement at all... Unless the lower rubber is fooked... This is moulded with a plastic collar in it... Spacer should be an interference fit within both the rubbers... Also the lower washer is in addition to the washer at the top of the dust cover.
Difficult to see what you have done, or not without physically seeing it, but fitted correctly there should be limited give and certainly no play :-\
-
Popped out to the car park, put the top nut as tight as it would go. Feels spongey, but guess that's cause I'm tightening it against the bush and it's 'bouncing back'
Also grabbed the shock from underneath, right at the top before it goes into the boot. Giving it a wiggle, getting whole car to wobble, no sounds, no noises, all good.
Bounce the rear of the car up and down, again all smooth and good. No noises. Made sure both top nuts are super tight, will see what it's like on the drive home.
Otherwise I'll re-fit them again and take a picture, bit by bit as I go. :-\
-
I fear this is what ill be doing to mine soon :( Please make the noise go away , watching with anticipation :)
Although i fear mine sounds like a spring :(
-
Popped out to the car park, put the top nut as tight as it would go. Feels spongey, but guess that's cause I'm tightening it against the bush and it's 'bouncing back'
Also grabbed the shock from underneath, right at the top before it goes into the boot. Giving it a wiggle, getting whole car to wobble, no sounds, no noises, all good.
Bounce the rear of the car up and down, again all smooth and good. No noises. Made sure both top nuts are super tight, will see what it's like on the drive home.
Otherwise I'll re-fit them again and take a picture, bit by bit as I go. :-\
I know what you mean... Spongy sensation is, I think, where the torque is trying to twist against the lower bolt rubber...
Basically you're aiming to tightening it as much as you can without actually shearing the thread :D
Sounds like you might have licked it though so fingers crossed for the trip home :y
-
Well the top 6mm spanner was slipping off, so about as tight as I can get it. ;D - Thing is it was like that before, maybe it's a tad tighter, but not much. :-\
Indeed, fingers crossed for the drive home! Have a guest staying tonight, so no work tonight if it is still playing up.
-
Figured out what was visually wrong... The washers are inverted. Both are upside down by the look of it... :y
-
The kit from MaxTrac does have different looking discs. Note that there is no "recess' or dip in the middle, you can see an old GM one in the background...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Suspension/20150919_134318952_iOS.jpg)
The discs bottom left, I've fitted them same way for the upper mount. Giving flat surface down on the bush, rounded up top. (same way as shown in picture)
For the lower mount, I put that smoother, rounded side facing down. That gives a flatter surface for the larger lower bush. (not way shown in picture, other way up)
I thought that made sense as best way?
-
As using them other way, leaves a rather sharp edge on the top mount. :-\
-
Ah ok, that kit looks like a decent impression of the genuine parts, but does explain the visual difference :y
As long as the spacer is the same lenght, or a smidgen less than the original then you should be ok :y
-
My issue is the last shocks which came off, did not have the kit. No spacer, no disc on lower mount.
So I can't compare the spacer length :(
-
Sometimes the spacer rusts onto the rod, likewise the lower washer...
Does explain why it was knocking like a bastid though...
-
Fact it was not there? But old shocks had nothing on them on the lower part, I'll take some pics later in the week.
But until last few weeks, it's been sweet. Silky smooth as all Omega's should be. It never had kit since about 130k :o (can't remember what 130k shocks were like, either old or new)
With it all tight now as much as it will go, it had better not knock/rattle on the way home. >:(
-
The rubber bushes that's visible from inside the boot on the top of rear shocks.. I have 3 new GM ones if any use to someone?. I needed 2 but had to buy 5 as that's the quantity they came in... Free to a good home...
-
Fact it was not there? But old shocks had nothing on them on the lower part, I'll take some pics later in the week.
But until last few weeks, it's been sweet. Silky smooth as all Omega's should be. It never had kit since about 130k :o (can't remember what 130k shocks were like, either old or new)
With it all tight now as much as it will go, it had better not knock/rattle on the way home. >:(
;D
(http://newsthump.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/basil_fawlty_carthrash.jpg)
-
Not far off EMD, still bl00dy doing it >:(
Knew straight away, the car park at work is brand spankers. It has a rough ish concrete floor, I could hear the vibration through the shock at sub 10mph >:( :-\
It's the vibration that's making the noise, rather than the compression. 70+ on the motorway or dual carriage way with car bouncing at speed, so fair bit of shock movement it's fine.
Yet 10mph in a car park is rubbling/vibrating from the rear.
I wonder if the disc hole is too large? is that moving around while on top of the shock, or the shaft/thread of the shock is moving inside sleeve :-\
Why else would it do it at 10mph on a rough surface, but not at 70mph... :-\
-
Only solution then is to fit the genuine kit as summat is clearly off with that one...
It's not a complicated assembly, so if it isn't working then summat is clearly wrong... I suspect the issue is with the spacer length. Trouble is that if the assembly is loose enough to knock, then you'll be either wearing the lower bush or the turret, if not both :-\
-
You need someone small and willing to go in the boot to make sure it is the mountains rattling.
I've done it before on my vRS, convinced myself part A was at fault when it was actually the much cheaper, if harder to fit, part B.
-
(Yes, mountains. Not like Shakiras breasts...)
-
I've got a genuine kit in the garage. I'll swap kits over tommorow night. :)
-
And given these shocks are being fitted onto a Saloon,is the mounting kit you are now going to fit originally listed for an Estate or Saloon,as I assume it direct from GM...just for my own peace of mind :y
-
Ordered kit for Saloon. Not had an Estate for few years :y
-
Thought school of thoughts was that the Estate fixing kit needed to be fitted with anything other than GM shocks .....or am I reading all these previuos post incorrectly ::)
-
And given these shocks are being fitted onto a Saloon,is the mounting kit you are now going to fit originally listed for an Estate or Saloon,as I assume it direct from GM...just for my own peace of mind :y
At risk of repeating myself, again... ::)
Compare the new shocks side by side with the old ones... paying particular attention to the overall length of the rod and also it's threaded length. If these two measurements are within a mm of the original ones, then fit the relevant kit for your body type... however if the threaded portion is notably shorter, ie 5mm+ different then fit the estate kit regardless of body type.
Bilstein B4s require the estate kit regardless of body type due to a shorter threaded portion...
See pic further up the thread for clarification of the dfifferences between the two kits... notably the comparable length of the spacer bush and the height of the lower bush :y
Also noteworthy, if the GM nut does NOT fit the shock rod, then use the one supplied with the shocks.
-
Thought school of thoughts was that the Estate fixing kit needed to be fitted with anything other than GM shocks .....or am I reading all these previuos post incorrectly ::)
::) See above ;)
-
The kit from MaxTrac does have different looking discs. Note that there is no "recess' or dip in the middle, you can see an old GM one in the background...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Suspension/20150919_134318952_iOS.jpg)
Tunnie... from the above pic... note the rusty white collar on the genuine bush... this must be inserted completely into/through the hole in the turret... be sure not to pinch it up against the underside of the metal work.
Secondly... the genuine washer sitting on the upper rubber... use that orientation for underneath the turret and inverted for above it.
Thirdly... if the genuine nut won't fit the thread on the shock rod, use the one supplied with it, but tighten it down until you can tighten no more.
Apologies if this reads a bit patronising, but trying to be as clear as a very clear thing ::)
-
No it's ok, thanks need all the help :y
On the first point, Only the very tip of the lower bush made it through.
Using the genuine bush on the back row as a guide, only the black tip would make it through. None of the white collar made it though.
MaxTrac ones currently fitted, but as per description above, only tip made it through.
-
Concise information is what I needed so thanks for that :y
-
I have had similar knocking noises since fitting B4,s a couple of years ago. Im wondering if Im also missing the sleeves or similar.
I must check when I get time. Im curious now after reading this.
-
No it's ok, thanks need all the help :y
On the first point, Only the very tip of the lower bush made it through.
Using the genuine bush on the back row as a guide, only the black tip would make it through. None of the white collar made it though.
MaxTrac ones currently fitted, but as per description above, only tip made it through.
That's correct the white part is effectively a wear protector, with the spacer sleeve providing internal support.
The MaxTrac kit, whilst a fair approximation, is obviously not quite right as it still knocks... That said, if the kit wasn't fitted at all, or with key parts missing, there's nothing to say that the mounting hole isn't now over sized... In which case, you're 'dangle berries'ed. :-\
-
By 'dangle berries'ed, I mean it will always knock... :y
-
I'm going to use the genuine kit tonight, spacer, discs etc. I took a quick look last night at the genuine spacers, they were black compared to silver, but they did look a tad ticker. :-\
Will compare the length of them tonight as well.
When inserting the MaxTrac spacer into the MaxTrack lower bush, it was a good fit, no movement. It all 'Felt' right. Thinking back though, the spacer on the shock went straight on, almost too easy. I remember doing the Estate shocks, fatty admin suggested greasing them to help it all together.
Took the 3.2 into the office today, such bliss, ultra smooth and silent. Auto and effortless away from the lights, much nicer to commute in...... hummmmmm ::) :-\ ;D
-
Worse case scenario is I buy another genuine fitting kit :(
-
Job is jobbed. All fixed and just as it should be now, using genuine kit. I think the disc + spacer on the MaxTrac kit are to blame, some photos....
The black spacer is GM, very slightly shorter.
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175222648_iOS.jpg)
A bigger difference is in the discs, note that there is no dip on the MaxTrac ones... (GM on right)
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_181050132_iOS.jpg)
Not sure if it has an impact, but the spacer had a slit down it on the GM kit. Way it's made maybe?
GM
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_180747937_iOS.jpg)
MT
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_180803862_iOS.jpg)
The spacer in the MT bush was so loose I could lift it out...
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_180459500_iOS.jpg)
Fitting the GM kit, the discs "felt" a lot happer sitting on top of the shock...
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175327910_iOS.jpg)
Lower bush with spacer
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175403791_iOS.jpg)
Inserted into the boot...
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175453603_iOS.jpg)
With top bush and disc....(before tightening it up)
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175605260_iOS.jpg)
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/tunnie_84/Shocks/20151027_175651221_iOS.jpg)
So the 2.2 is back to normal now :D :D :D
Thanks to Al for all the assistance :y :y :y :y
-
You're welcome :y
All spot on from those pics 8)
The difference in the spacers is indeed a manufacturing one. That seam is nowt to worry about, they really do all do that ;)
-
Good to know. :y
What are your thoughts on the discs? Must be a combination of the discs and spacer causing the previous metallic rattle I had, but very pleased it's all back to normal now.
So MaxTrac kit close, but no cigar :)
-
Indeed, the devil really is in the detail... the design and orientation of the washers focuses the clamping forces of the rubbers onto the turret whilst providing a solid mounting point for the shock rod :y Slight differences in the aftermarket mountings, even if visually similar clearly make a big difference... and if a concerted copy such as those Maxtrac items cause a knock, there's no way I would fit anything but the genuine mountings*...
That mounting essentially locates the trailing edge of the suspension arm, so requires just the right balance of rigidity and flex... the rubber on the bottom of the shock is where most of the give happens. :y
* clearly as long as the genuine bits are available.
-
Given age Omega's are now, bits might start to become unavailable. :(
I'm tempted to buy another genuine kit and stick in the garage, so that when the 3.2 needs them next in maybe 2 or 3 years i'll have a kit.
-
Tempted to do the same, T, for that reason. I've just shelved out the garage, and am thinking of making into my own private Halfords... ;)
-
For info I rang local dealers today ,as Al advised fixing kit for Estate is required with B4,s.
Kit is ....90487541..being for the Estate.No stock in Uk and will need to be sourced from Germany so 7-10 days and around £13.00 + per side :o
-
That sounds a bit light... Individually the parts add up to nearer £40 :-\ part.numbers are discussed elsewhere... Test Zone or gen car chat :y
-
Sure I paid around £45, but that was without trade though.
-
Corrected as just had call from dealers asking if I wanted them to be ordered
£37=62 inc
-
I'm confused by the pictures shown on here !! Ibhad taken my rear shocks off to replace the rubbers and there wasn't a steel " tube" thing inside the old ones nor in the new ones to be fitted? Also there wasn't a washer/ spacer ontop of the shock either... These where the original shicks too and haven't been off before....???
-
I'm confused by the pictures shown on here !! I had taken my rear shocks off to replace the rubbers and there wasn't a steel " tube" thing inside the old ones nor in the new ones to be fitted? Also there wasn't a washer/ spacer on top of the shock either... These where the original shocks too and haven't been off before.... ???
The steel tube is often so badly rusted that it looks as if it's part of the shock. Twisting it with a large pair of pliers usually removes what is left of it. Measuring how long it is before you remove it is a good idea, as that makes acquiring/making a new one much simpler.
-
Sodding hell I never noticed if they where in the shocks or not? There definitely wasn't a spacer on top of the shock though? The new rubber's went on a treat though.. Do I need to remove them again??
-
They probably won't last very long without all the bits fitted... :-\
-
So there's another strip down at the weekend then.....is there a part number for the tube thing in the middle?
-
Search it here... Try test Zone and gen car chat... Done to death earlier this year ::)
-
So there's another strip down at the weekend then.....is there a part number for the tube thing in the middle?
Only takes 10 mins each side, including getting tools out :y
-
Its not the doing it its not knowing if I'm missing bits Tha may need ordering... The bushes took 2 weeks to come from Germany.
-
Pop them off and check, it took me 10 mins to change them. Be even less to check what's what, before ordering :)
-
All I fitted was.... 2 top ( in boot) rubber's and 2 top of shock rubbers with 1 metal spacer under the upper most nut in boot.. Nothing fell off while dismantling so can only assume the metal tubes are fused to the shocks?
-
All I fitted was.... 2 top ( in boot) rubber's and 2 top of shock rubbers with 1 metal spacer under the upper most nut in boot.. Nothing fell off while dismantling so can only assume the metal tubes are fused to the shocks?
The kit contains two large washers which should be oriented as above... there is also a metal washer of some sort on the dust cover... this does NOT replace the lower washer provided in the kit :y
-
And yet my rear shocks are original and I'm missing bits?
-
3.0 was stopped in 2000, I can't see a 15 year old car on original shocks? As many know I'm not hard on cars, I'm on my 3rd set for the rears on the 2.2.
First two sets were genuine GMs.
0k - 135k
135k - 182k
-
Its only got 58k on it and I believe I have all receipts for work done from new... The shocks look a little rusty near the bottom so this is why I think they're original...
-
Plus ive just looked at the " how to" on changing the rear shock's on a saloon and all the bits shown in diagrams are what I experienced? No other bits shown !! :o
-
Plus ive just looked at the " how to" on changing the rear shock's on a saloon and all the bits shown in diagrams are what I experienced? No other bits shown !! :o
Hurrumph...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/IMG_20150426_132411_zpsntty7br9.jpg)
Saloon below, estate above... for reference, the washers are the wrong way round, but the order is otherwise correct ;)
-
Nice clear pics here...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=103210.0 :y
-
Estate part numbers here...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=130039.0;all
And kit part numbers here...
Pics to follow, but...
Saloon fitting kit is #90487540
Estate is/was #90487541
:y
-
Then I'm either missing the " tube" or it's fused itself to the shock without my knowing :-X
-
The guide is wrong, does need updating. I've supplied pictures in the test zone :)
-
Well I have re covered my tracks when I changed the shock rubbers.. There's no steel spacer/ tube inside them both so I conclude they're still attached to the spindle without my knowing.. No signs of them on garage floor or in the pit I used... Thinking now the little knocking noise maybe something coming adrift inside one of the door panels instead.