Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Sir Tigger KC on 08 November 2016, 14:17:34
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Potterton Profile conventional boiler, with hot water tank next to it and feed and expansion tank in the loft.
The boiler seems to run fine for a while and all the radiators get hot, but then it will give a big gurgle and shuts down. :-\ This also happens when heating water, but the gurgle is worse and the boiler shuts down more often! Sounds like there is a lot of air in the pipes around the boiler and hot water tank. :-\
I've bled all the rads and they're fine, I've opened the bleed valve above the 3 way valve and that was fine, and I've checked the feed and expansion tank and that's OK, the pump appears to be running OK, and apart from draining down the system and refilling it I'm out of ideas! :-\
Might there be an airlock somewhere in the pipes around the boiler and hot water tank?
Any advice appreciated please! I'm bleddy freezing!! :o :D
TIA! :y
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When you say it shuts down, does it trip the thermal trip (reset underneath?)
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I'm trying to think what I did when ours did this :-\
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Oh yeah.......called a plumber ;D
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Oh yeah.......called a plumber ;D
But he wants it fixing..........
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When you say it shuts down, does it trip the thermal trip (reset underneath?)
No I don't think so, as it will start up again after a while without intervention.
As if it's got up to temp and shuts down until the thermostat tells it to start up again. :-\
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Oh yeah.......called a plumber ;D
But he wants to fix it..........
Fixed! ;D
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Oh yeah.......called a plumber ;D
But he wants it fixing..........
I suppose he could take it to bits.......then call a plumber...or boiler fixerer.
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Ok so that suggests that its the standard boiler stat shutting it off because the return temperature is high, that points to either the pump not circulating (check it for air via the large screw cap) or its seized (give it a belt to see if it runs).
An easy way to check is to demand heat for either the rads or water and check the temperature of the pipe to the pump.
Also, do you know if its an S (multiple 2 way valves) plan or Y/W plan system (mid position valve)?
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Oh dear.....he's gone.........probably to get his tools.........oh dear......
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Just re-read your post.....is the feed and vent clear from the header tank?
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Not a Fry's house, is it?
Plumber who did ours seemingly had difficulty with the concept of water flowing downhill and air collecting at the top (right where he'd located the pump). ;D
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I think it's a Y/W plan as there's only one valve (3 way). The F/E tank seemed OK, it had water in it, the vent is clear of the water level and the ball valve operates OK.
I think the pump is OK as the rads get hot.... I'll check again though. :y
Not a Fry's house Kevin! :y
Piss off STEMO, yer not helping! :P ;D
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I think it's a Y/W plan as there's only one valve (3 way). The F/E tank seemed OK, it had water in it, the vent is clear of the water level and the ball valve operates OK.
I think the pump is OK as the rads get hot.... I'll check again though. :y
Not a Fry's house Kevin! :y
Piss off STEMO, yer not helping! :P ;D
That's nice. I won't bother then. ;D
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I think it's a Y/W plan as there's only one valve (3 way). The F/E tank seemed OK, it had water in it, the vent is clear of the water level and the ball valve operates OK.
I think the pump is OK as the rads get hot.... I'll check again though. :y
Not a Fry's house Kevin! :y
Piss off STEMO, yer not helping! :P ;D
It's possible the feed or vent pipes have been blocked if there's a bit of crusty stuff in the system.
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The gurgling noise suggests air/gas somewhere in the system to me. :-\ :y
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The gurgling noise suggests air/gas somewhere in the system to me. :-\ :y
Yes and lots of it! But I can't bleed any out.... :-\
It's possible the feed or vent pipes have been blocked if there's a bit of crusty stuff in the system.
That's possible as it's an old system. I might drain it down tomorrow and refill.... :-\
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I think it's a Y/W plan as there's only one valve (3 way). The F/E tank seemed OK, it had water in it, the vent is clear of the water level and the ball valve operates OK.
I think the pump is OK as the rads get hot.... I'll check again though. :y
Not a Fry's house Kevin! :y
Piss off STEMO, yer not helping! :P ;D
That's nice. I won't bother then. ;D
That'll learn him for putting it on so bleddy early :D
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I think it's a Y/W plan as there's only one valve (3 way). The F/E tank seemed OK, it had water in it, the vent is clear of the water level and the ball valve operates OK.
I think the pump is OK as the rads get hot.... I'll check again though. :y
Not a Fry's house Kevin! :y
Piss off STEMO, yer not helping! :P ;D
That's nice. I won't bother then. ;D
That'll learn him for putting it on so bleddy early :D
Pfft! ::)
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My lad has just complained that it's too warm in here. Phew!
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Just the missus to convince now... although the dog will probably side with her ;D
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Just the missus to convince now... although the dog will probably side with her ;D
She's ploughing her way home through the elements to cook my tea...
.......in my fickin dreams. ;D
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The gurgling noise suggests air/gas somewhere in the system to me. :-\ :y
Yes and lots of it! But I can't bleed any out.... :-\
It's possible the feed or vent pipes have been blocked if there's a bit of crusty stuff in the system.
That's possible as it's an old system. I might drain it down tomorrow and refill.... :-\
Might be worth adding something like this to the header tank before you refill and let it do a clean :y
http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/fernox-f5-liquid-central-93-32297?utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=GB&utm_campaign=GoogleBase&gclid=CMn7g43amdACFaIK0wodeJwPIQ
Then drain it out after a few days and refill again...
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The gurgling noise suggests air/gas somewhere in the system to me. :-\ :y
Yes and lots of it! But I can't bleed any out.... :-\
It's possible the feed or vent pipes have been blocked if there's a bit of crusty stuff in the system.
That's possible as it's an old system. I might drain it down tomorrow and refill.... :-\
Might be worth adding something like this to the header tank before you refill and let it do a clean :y
http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/fernox-f5-liquid-central-93-32297?utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=GB&utm_campaign=GoogleBase&gclid=CMn7g43amdACFaIK0wodeJwPIQ
Then drain it out after a few days and refill again...
I've got a bottle of something like that lurking in the garage somewhere, but I wonder if it might do more harm than good on an old system. :-\
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had a similar/same problem last year - the cold water feed pipe from the header tank had become blocked where the cold water feeding the system comes into contact with hot water, salts drop out of solution and occlude/block the copper pipe near this point ie first bend in the pipe in my case where the water slows up .I chopped out, removed and replaced this bend of copper pipe which has completely silted up, and this sorted the problem.
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had a similar/same problem last year - the cold water feed pipe from the header tank had become blocked where the cold water feeding the system comes into contact with hot water, salts drop out of solution and occlude/block the copper pipe near this point ie first bend in the pipe in my case where the water slows up .I chopped out, removed and replaced this bend of copper pipe which has completely silted up, and this sorted the problem.
How did you work that out? :-\
What I don't understand is how I can hear air gurgling but I can't bleed any out. Also it seems to be worse when heating the water. :-\
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had a similar/same problem last year - the cold water feed pipe from the header tank had become blocked where the cold water feeding the system comes into contact with hot water, salts drop out of solution and occlude/block the copper pipe near this point ie first bend in the pipe in my case where the water slows up .I chopped out, removed and replaced this bend of copper pipe which has completely silted up, and this sorted the problem.
How did you work that out? :-\
What I don't understand is how I can hear air gurgling but I can't bleed any out. Also it seems to be worse when heating the water. :-\
Is it air gurgling or localised boiling as the water is not circulating properly ?? I had similar a few years back and it was also a blockage on the feed pipe on a bend ... insufficient water feed to fill the boiler tank, so what was in there was boiling and making one hell of a noise, took that bit of pipe off and replaced it using two compression joints and a short length of new pipe .. :)
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had a similar/same problem last year - the cold water feed pipe from the header tank had become blocked where the cold water feeding the system comes into contact with hot water, salts drop out of solution and occlude/block the copper pipe near this point ie first bend in the pipe in my case where the water slows up .I chopped out, removed and replaced this bend of copper pipe which has completely silted up, and this sorted the problem.
How did you work that out? :-\
What I don't understand is how I can hear air gurgling but I can't bleed any out. Also it seems to be worse when heating the water. :-\
Is it air gurgling or localised boiling as the water is not circulating properly ?? I had similar a few years back and it was also a blockage on the feed pipe on a bend ... insufficient water feed to fill the boiler tank, so what was in there was boiling and making one hell of a noise, took that bit of pipe off and replaced it using two compression joints and a short length of new pipe .. :)
No I don't think it's boiling. Definitely sounds like air gurgling. :(
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The gurgling noise suggests air/gas somewhere in the system to me. :-\ :y
Yes and lots of it! But I can't bleed any out.... :-\
It's possible the feed or vent pipes have been blocked if there's a bit of crusty stuff in the system.
That's possible as it's an old system. I might drain it down tomorrow and refill.... :-\
Might be worth adding something like this to the header tank before you refill and let it do a clean :y
http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/fernox-f5-liquid-central-93-32297?utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=GB&utm_campaign=GoogleBase&gclid=CMn7g43amdACFaIK0wodeJwPIQ
Then drain it out after a few days and refill again...
I've got a bottle of something like that lurking in the garage somewhere, but I wonder if it might do more harm than good on an old system. :-\
Some cleaners warn about using it with a boiler with an aluminium heat exchanger, plus if you have any 'weak' joints the cleaner will find them and you will possibly get a leak.
With my 30+ yr old boiler with a cast iron heat exchanger it was fine and I didn't get any leaks.
Afterwards the boiler was noticeably quieter and didn't work so hard :)
If you decide to put a cleaner in it, remember to open the rads bleed valves (starting at the highest point) when draining the system otherwise water will remain in the rads.
Tho if you first drain it and try to refill it, if it wont refill then I guess it would suggest a blocked feed pipe as others have suggested :)
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I think I'm going to drain it today and refill it to see what happens. :y
I put a bottle of descaler in an elderly heating system a few years ago and soon after the heat exchanger was leaking badly! It was an expensive mistake as I ended up buying a new boiler! :(
The bottle of cleaner that I have somewhere is more like the one you liked to though, so it's probably more gentle. I'll read the instructions carefully before I use it! ;)
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Realised there was some sort of blockage in the CH system after draining it down, as the system would not refill via the header tank, read somewhere on a plumbers /DIY site that the likely cause could be a pipe blockage somewhere between the CH header tank and pump, and it was likely to be near a bend in the cold feed pipe as it joins the CH hot water part of the circuit - it was, and so chopped out the offending pipe section and was able to unblock it and refit /replace using a couple of compression connectors inclusive of an isolation valve located above the repair so that it was easier for me to maintain/repair anything else should the need arise at some later point ie replace ball cock valve and/or connector without the need to drain the system down to work above the repair location.
Did take some photos of the rough job that I did, but its still holding up ok so far
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I didn't do anything to this today, but I've had a scan of the DIY forums and I think that you're right that this is the cause. :y
I've been scratching my head as to why there is so much air in the system that I can't bleed out, but if the feed pipe is blocked then air can't escape either as it's a combined feed/vent pipe. ::)
A good tip on one of the forums was to run a magnet along the pipe as the sludge will attract the magnet and then hopefully you find the blockage. I guess it's corrosion from the cast iron heat exchanger. :-\
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One of my rads is hot at the top and lukewarm at the bottom. Ive bled it several times but it makes no difference.
Any ideas ? Preferably simple ones, as I know three fifths of fick all about heating. :)
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One of my lads is hot at the top and lukewarm at the bottom. Ive bled it several times but it makes no difference.
There...that's much more interesting.
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You aint right in the head. ;D ;D
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One of my rads is hot at the top and lukewarm at the bottom. Ive bled it several times but it makes no difference.
Any ideas ? Preferably simple ones, as I know three fifths of fick all about heating. :)
Your rad is probably full of sludge at the bottom. You can turn off both valves and carefully drain the rad by carefully loosening the connector nuts at the rad. I use a bit of polythene to direct the water into a paint tray and it's a bit of a slow process as you have to tighten up the nut to stop the flow and empty the paint tray into a bucket a few times. ::)
When it's empty, fully disconnect the pipes, Lift rad off wall, take outside and flush with garden hose in much the same way you would a car rad. :y
Reassemble, open valves, bleed the rad and hopefully jobs a goodun! :)
Now someone will come along and tell you a much easier way!! ;D
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Brilliant, thanks. I will get straight on it sometime within the next year or two. :y :D
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Brilliant, thanks. I will get straight on it sometime within the next year or two. :y :D
No need to rush ;D ;D
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So it looks as though I've got big problems here. :(
I can't drain the system! As I write I have 2 drain cocks open with hoses going outside with nothing coming out!
If I open bleed valves on the radiators water comes out and I've tried sucking/blowing down the hoses with no success. It looks like it's clogged up solid... :-\
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Make sure the hose on the drain off cock is (very) secure and give it a quick blast from the kitchen tap (mains pressure). It may encourage it to start flowing.
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Make sure the hose on the drain off cock is (very) secure and give it a quick blast from the kitchen tap (mains pressure). It may encourage it to start flowing.
There is a third drain cock so I'll attach a hose to that and give that a quick blast! :y
To top it off my dishwasher kakked itself last night! ::) The bloody place is falling apart! :-\ ;D
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Make sure the hose on the drain off cock is (very) secure and give it a quick blast from the kitchen tap (mains pressure). It may encourage it to start flowing.
There is a third drain cock so I'll attach a hose to that and give that a quick blast! :y
To top it off my dishwasher kakked itself last night! ::) The bloody place is falling apart! :-\ ;D
Did owning an omega not teach you anything about preventative maintenance? ;D
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I'm the dishwasher in this house and I've been known to cack meself. ;D
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I'm the dishwasher in this house and I've been known to cack meself. ;D
;D
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So it looks as though I've got big problems here. :(
I can't drain the system! As I write I have 2 drain cocks open with hoses going outside with nothing coming out!
If I open bleed valves on the radiators water comes out and I've tried sucking/blowing down the hoses with no success. It looks like it's clogged up solid... :-\
Very common for the rubber washer in a drain cock to weld itself in place - you might have to pull the guts out with a pair of pliers or mole/vice grips to get things flowing.
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Potterton Profile conventional boiler, with hot water tank next to it and feed and expansion tank in the loft.
The boiler seems to run fine for a while and all the radiators get hot, but then it will give a big gurgle and shuts down. :-\ This also happens when heating water, but the gurgle is worse and the boiler shuts down more often! Sounds like there is a lot of air in the pipes around the boiler and hot water tank. :-\
I've bled all the rads and they're fine, I've opened the bleed valve above the 3 way valve and that was fine, and I've checked the feed and expansion tank and that's OK, the pump appears to be running OK, and apart from draining down the system and refilling it I'm out of ideas! :-\
Might there be an airlock somewhere in the pipes around the boiler and hot water tank?
Any advice appreciated please! I'm bleddy freezing!! :o :D
TIA! :y
Sounds to me as though the pump is sticking - running OK when cold but seizing when it gets hot. In hot water mode the system gets hotter quicker hence the shorter intervals between gurgles.
The primary cause of pumps sticking is a build up of magnetite (black sludge), a magnetic form of iron oxide that gets attracted to the magnetic field in the pump motor.
If the pump is running at all then you should be able to unscrew the bleed screw (with a bowl under it) and watch a trickle of black sludge dribble out followed by cleaner water as the magnetite gets washed out.
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Very common for the rubber washer in a drain cock to weld itself in place - you might have to pull the guts out with a pair of pliers or mole/vice grips to get things flowing.
I poked a bit of wire in it and managed to get it dribbling but as soon as I pulled the wire out it stopped again. :( I guess it's just perseverance and willingness to get wet and make a mess! ::)
Sounds to me as though the pump is sticking - running OK when cold but seizing when it gets hot. In hot water mode the system gets hotter quicker hence the shorter intervals between gurgles.
The primary cause of pumps sticking is a build up of magnetite (black sludge), a magnetic form of iron oxide that gets attracted to the magnetic field in the pump motor.
If the pump is running at all then you should be able to unscrew the bleed screw (with a bowl under it) and watch a trickle of black sludge dribble out followed by cleaner water as the magnetite gets washed out.
I've removed the bleed screw Andy and all I've had is clean water dribbling out. :(
It's been a frustrating day! ::)
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So it looks as though I've got big problems here. :(
I can't drain the system! As I write I have 2 drain cocks open with hoses going outside with nothing coming out!
If I open bleed valves on the radiators water comes out and I've tried sucking/blowing down the hoses with no success. It looks like it's clogged up solid... :-\
What happens when the header tank is left open to fill the system.... I think probably nothing will happen...I think the reason nothing is coming out when your draining the system....is theres little water in it, apart from whats in the rads....so if buggar all comes out of the drain pipes, when the header tank is left open to fill the system...it certainly points to a blocked cold water feed :y
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I think Andy's right in that the draincock washers have welded themselves in place, as when I've poked them water comes out and there's pressure there too! :y
I don't think it's gunk blocking the draincocks either as I tried back flushing them with the hose, but I think I was just pressing the washer more firmly in place! ::)
Also I managed to get about half a bucket out while poking the draincocks with a piece of wire and the level in the header tank went down, so that's a good sign as well! :y
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I think Andy's right in that the draincock washers have welded themselves in place, as when I've poked them water comes out and there's pressure there too! :y
I don't think it's gunk blocking the draincocks either as I tried back flushing them with the hose, but I think I was just pressing the washer more firmly in place! ::)
Also I managed to get about half a bucket out while poking the draincocks with a piece of wire and the level in the header tank went down, so that's a good sign as well! :y
These washers are replaceable, just remove the whole screw to do so. Plumbers usually use the cheaper drain cocks with no locking ring, but in each case the washers are replaceable. :y
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I think Andy's right in that the draincock washers have welded themselves in place, as when I've poked them water comes out and there's pressure there too! :y
I don't think it's gunk blocking the draincocks either as I tried back flushing them with the hose, but I think I was just pressing the washer more firmly in place! ::)
Also I managed to get about half a bucket out while poking the draincocks with a piece of wire and the level in the header tank went down, so that's a good sign as well! :y
These washers are replaceable, just remove the whole screw to do so. Plumbers usually use the cheaper drain cocks with no locking ring, but in each case the washers are replaceable. :y
Yes I will replace the washers, but I'd rather remove the water first though! :o ;D
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I think Andy's right in that the draincock washers have welded themselves in place, as when I've poked them water comes out and there's pressure there too! :y
I don't think it's gunk blocking the draincocks either as I tried back flushing them with the hose, but I think I was just pressing the washer more firmly in place! ::)
Also I managed to get about half a bucket out while poking the draincocks with a piece of wire and the level in the header tank went down, so that's a good sign as well! :y
These washers are replaceable, just remove the whole screw to do so. Plumbers usually use the cheaper drain cocks with no locking ring, but in each case the washers are replaceable. :y
Yes I will replace the washers, but I'd rather remove the water first though! :o ;D
Ah sorry, I thought you were suggesting that the washers were blocking the outlet. :y
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I think Andy's right in that the draincock washers have welded themselves in place, as when I've poked them water comes out and there's pressure there too! :y
I don't think it's gunk blocking the draincocks either as I tried back flushing them with the hose, but I think I was just pressing the washer more firmly in place! ::)
Also I managed to get about half a bucket out while poking the draincocks with a piece of wire and the level in the header tank went down, so that's a good sign as well! :y
These washers are replaceable, just remove the whole screw to do so. Plumbers usually use the cheaper drain cocks with no locking ring, but in each case the washers are replaceable. :y
Yes I will replace the washers, but I'd rather remove the water first though! :o ;D
Ah sorry, I thought you were suggesting that the washers were blocking the outlet. :y
Yes I think they are, but hopefully I can dislodge them enough to drain down the system without making too much mess. ;)
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I've removed the bleed screw Andy and all I've had is clean water dribbling out. :(
It's been a frustrating day! ::)
I am wondering if the water side of the system is actually OK :-\
In my last house I had a Potterton Prima boiler and Y plan controls. In 15 years the circuit board in the boiler failed once but the 3 port valve actuator failed 3 times.
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I am wondering if the water side of the system is actually OK :-\
In my last house I had a Potterton Prima boiler and Y plan controls. In 15 years the circuit board in the boiler failed once but the 3 port valve actuator failed 3 times.
PCBs are poorly made on these. Replace the caps with 105C rated types and resolder all the mains connections and they are fine thereafter.
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I am wondering if the water side of the system is actually OK :-\
In my last house I had a Potterton Prima boiler and Y plan controls. In 15 years the circuit board in the boiler failed once but the 3 port valve actuator failed 3 times.
PCBs are poorly made on these. Replace the caps with 105C rated types and resolder all the mains connections and they are fine thereafter.
Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
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I am wondering if the water side of the system is actually OK :-\
In my last house I had a Potterton Prima boiler and Y plan controls. In 15 years the circuit board in the boiler failed once but the 3 port valve actuator failed 3 times.
PCBs are poorly made on these. Replace the caps with 105C rated types and resolder all the mains connections and they are fine thereafter.
Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
You never need to replace the PCB on these, a bit of soldering and 80p of capacitors and they are good for another 8-10 years
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Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
Didn't I offer to fix a PCB for you once? Offer still stands next time I'm in Salwayash (which might well be into the new year by now).
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Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
Didn't I offer to fix a PCB for you once? Offer still stands next time I'm in Salwayash (which might well be into the new year by now).
Yes you did! I forgot about that. Thanks! :y
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I am wondering if the water side of the system is actually OK :-\
In my last house I had a Potterton Prima boiler and Y plan controls. In 15 years the circuit board in the boiler failed once but the 3 port valve actuator failed 3 times.
PCBs are poorly made on these. Replace the caps with 105C rated types and resolder all the mains connections and they are fine thereafter.
Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
Bout time you bought a new boiler then.....a quick google on your boiler shows its only about 70% efficient ::) :)
But I guess it depends how long you intend to live in the property :-\
Have you sorted the problem?
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Yes this one's had 3 PCB's and a 3 way valve, which I don't think is bad for a 23 year old system. :y
Bout time you bought a new boiler then.....a quick google on your boiler shows its only about 70% efficient ::) :)
But I guess it depends how long you intend to live in the property :-\
Have you sorted the problem?
If it was 70% inefficient I'd think about it... ::) ;D
Well I managed to get one of the draincocks flowing today and thankfully without any mess! :y It drained down and filled up again with no problems, so we can rule out a blocked feed pipe and I fitted new washers to all 3 draincocks. :y
Unfortunately it seems to be operating much the same as before. :( I've bled all the rads a couple of times and they're all getting nice and hot, but there is still air gurgling and the boiler keeps shutting down and restarting. :-\
The pump has been mentioned a couple of times and I'm wondering about this now. Although its obviously working as the rads are all getting hot, it did make a horrible whirring sound when I first switched the system back on and I'm wondering if it's sticking from time to time. :-\
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Well I managed to get one of the draincocks flowing today and thankfully without any mess! :y It drained down and filled up again with no problems, so we can rule out a blocked feed pipe and I fitted new washers to all 3 draincocks. :y
Unfortunately it seems to be operating much the same as before. :( I've bled all the rads a couple of times and they're all getting nice and hot, but there is still air gurgling and the boiler keeps shutting down and restarting. :-\
The pump has been mentioned a couple of times and I'm wondering about this now. Although its obviously working as the rads are all getting hot, it did make a horrible whirring sound when I first switched the system back on and I'm wondering if it's sticking from time to time. :-\
I suspect that the gurgling noise is due to pockets of air that have collected in the radiator pipes over the summer. Each time the flow stops they go bubbling back up to high level. If you can get the system to run normally they should find their way back to the header tank or into the radiators.
The question is why does the flow keep stopping? likely causes are sticking pump, faulty 3 port valve (or the switches in it) or the room thermostat.
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I suspect that the gurgling noise is due to pockets of air that have collected in the radiator pipes over the summer. Each time the flow stops they go bubbling back up to high level. If you can get the system to run normally they should find their way back to the header tank or into the radiators.
No I don't think so as a) I've had the system running OK since the summer and b) I've drained down, refilled and bled the system. What I don't understand is why this air isn't venting off as it sounds like large amounts, so it's more of a gurgling/glugging noise than bubbling and only around the boiler/hot water cylinder.
There's a automatic vent tee'd onto the return feed just above the boiler and I did wonder if that has failed and is sucking air into the system, but I screwed the cap down tight and there was no difference and when I unscrewed the cap a small amount of air hissed out.
The question is why does the flow keep stopping? likely causes are sticking pump, faulty 3 port valve (or the switches in it) or the room thermostat.
The pump is seems to be whirring away nicely when the boiler stops, but I think when you remove the bleed screw you can see the impeller? I'll check that later.
The 3 way valve was changed about 3 years ago, but this is a possibility as the glugging/gurgling sound is much worse when in Heat/Hot Water Mode, than in Heat or Hot Water only.
I think the roomstat is OK as it seems to operate normally. So when it's at 30 degrees the boiler tries to run continuously, but turn it down to 18 degrees it dosn't try to run so much.
Thanks for the replies! :y
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Can you get to the pipework out of the top of the boiler?
If the flow is stopping, I'd expect it to be really hot near the boiler but for the pipes further away to start cooling off. If they all stay the same temperature throughout, you have some flow.
Also, new air will be introduced with the fresh water, so expect to have to bleed it regularly for a while.
In fact, one possibility is that it has a leak, so new water is constantly being added to the system, bringing air with it, although I would expect it to work OK for a while after filling.
Air leaking in to a low pressure point in the system might be a possibility. In fact, the location of that automatic bleeder sounds suspect, as they can admit air if they don't have positive pressure on them all the time. Sounds like that might have been added as an afterthought when it wouldn't bleed properly after commissioning?
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Can you get to the pipework out of the top of the boiler?
If the flow is stopping, I'd expect it to be really hot near the boiler but for the pipes further away to start cooling off. If they all stay the same temperature throughout, you have some flow.
Also, new air will be introduced with the fresh water, so expect to have to bleed it regularly for a while.
In fact, one possibility is that it has a leak, so new water is constantly being added to the system, bringing air with it, although I would expect it to work OK for a while after filling.
Air leaking in to a low pressure point in the system might be a possibility. In fact, the location of that automatic bleeder sounds suspect, as they can admit air if they don't have positive pressure on them all the time. Sounds like that might have been added as an afterthought when it wouldn't bleed properly after commissioning?
IIRC that was the location of a bleed valve (but a manual one) on my old system. When I added a cleaner to the system it was always the point where most of the air came out. Could the automatic bleeder be getting old and sticking and not releasing the air? Is there a way to manually release the valve?
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No I've heard air coming out of the valve, unless it's sucking in. :-\ As to the location, it's on the highest point of the system apart from the F/E tank and pipework, but then if the pump is sticking maybe it is drawing air in when the pump sticks and the pressure falls away. :-\ However I have screwed the cap down tight and it makes no difference. :(
But what I still don't understand is why all this air isn't venting out through the feed pipe to the vent over the F/E tank. It's not just a few bubbles trickling around it's a lot of air! :-\
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No I've heard air coming out of the valve, unless it's sucking in. :-\ As to the location, it's on the highest point of the system apart from the F/E tank and pipework, but then if the pump is sticking maybe it is drawing air in when the pump sticks and the pressure falls away. :-\ However I have screwed the cap down tight and it makes no difference. :(
But what I still don't understand is why all this air isn't venting out through the feed pipe to the vent over the F/E tank. It's not just a few bubbles trickling around it's a lot of air! :-\
If you'd have called a heating engineer, you'd have been warm and toasty now...like wot I am ;D
Or.....
He'd have condemned the boiler and you be sitting looking at a load of labels saying "DO NOT USE". :-\
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He'd have condemned the boiler and you be sitting looking at a load of labels saying "DO NOT USE". :-\
This I expect! ::)
Any way in other news I fixed the dishwasher this afternoon! :y
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No I've heard air coming out of the valve, unless it's sucking in. :-\ As to the location, it's on the highest point of the system apart from the F/E tank and pipework, but then if the pump is sticking maybe it is drawing air in when the pump sticks and the pressure falls away. :-\ However I have screwed the cap down tight and it makes no difference. :(
But what I still don't understand is why all this air isn't venting out through the feed pipe to the vent over the F/E tank. It's not just a few bubbles trickling around it's a lot of air! :-\
If that were the case, then it would be drawing air in when the system was off or room stat shut the heating off, so unlikely imo.
Does it make any difference if you close the bypass valve? I'm thinking maybe the air is just circulating around the boiler, thro the bypass. Its perfectly safe to shut off the bypass valve as long that you make sure at least one rad thermostat is fully open (if you have them, if you don't then it doesn't matter if you shut of the bypass valve as long as the rads are turned on)
If the bypass is closed it might force the air to another part of the system which can be bled :-\
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No I've heard air coming out of the valve, unless it's sucking in. :-\ As to the location, it's on the highest point of the system apart from the F/E tank and pipework, but then if the pump is sticking maybe it is drawing air in when the pump sticks and the pressure falls away. :-\ However I have screwed the cap down tight and it makes no difference. :(
But what I still don't understand is why all this air isn't venting out through the feed pipe to the vent over the F/E tank. It's not just a few bubbles trickling around it's a lot of air! :-\
If that were the case, then it would be drawing air in when the system was off or room stat shut the heating off, so unlikely imo.
Does it make any difference if you close the bypass valve? I'm thinking maybe the air is just circulating around the boiler, thro the bypass. Its perfectly safe to shut off the bypass valve as long that you make sure at least one rad thermostat is fully open (if you have them, if you don't then it doesn't matter if you shut of the bypass valve as long as the rads are turned on)
If the bypass is closed it might force the air to another part of the system which can be bled :-\
No bypass valve. :)
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Any strainers in the system?
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
A mesh basket in the pipe to catch bits of crud.
It is unlikely that you will have one in a 15 year old domestic heating system but modern boilers might have one.
The commercial systems that I spend most of my time working with have lots of strainers and it can cause all sorts of grief when they block up......
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
A mesh basket in the pipe to catch bits of crud.
It is unlikely that you will have one in a 15 year old domestic heating system but modern boilers might have one.
The commercial systems that I spend most of my time working with have lots of strainers and it can cause all sorts of grief when they block up......
Ah yes, no nothing like that.
The pump is OK though, I popped off the bleed screw and watched for a while and it doesn't stick or stop when the boiler shuts down. :y
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He'd have condemned the boiler and you be sitting looking at a load of labels saying "DO NOT USE". :-\
This I expect! ::)
Any way in other news I fixed the dishwasher this afternoon! :y
Good news on that front then :y Would you like to pop round and fix mine then :)
Actually I know whats wrong with it.....and its either £80 for the new part or a new machine :-\
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
A mesh basket in the pipe to catch bits of crud.
It is unlikely that you will have one in a 15 year old domestic heating system but modern boilers might have one.
The commercial systems that I spend most of my time working with have lots of strainers and it can cause all sorts of grief when they block up......
Ah yes, no nothing like that.
The pump is OK though, I popped off the bleed screw and watched for a while and it doesn't stick or stop when the boiler shuts down. :y
Ummm....if you've unscrewed the bleed screw on the pump.....water should come out of it surely :-\
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
A mesh basket in the pipe to catch bits of crud.
It is unlikely that you will have one in a 15 year old domestic heating system but modern boilers might have one.
The commercial systems that I spend most of my time working with have lots of strainers and it can cause all sorts of grief when they block up......
Ah yes, no nothing like that.
The pump is OK though, I popped off the bleed screw and watched for a while and it doesn't stick or stop when the boiler shuts down. :y
Ummm....if you've unscrewed the bleed screw on the pump.....water should come out of it surely :-\
It does. :y
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Sorted yet?
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Nope :(
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Called a plumber yet? :P
(Channelling my inner STEMO..)
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Nope ::)
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Nope ::)
Freeze then, yer tight bastid. :P
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Nope ::)
Freeze then, yer tight bastid. :P
It's nice and mild here so not freezing! :) I've got a couple of things to try before I give in and get someone out to condemn it. ::)
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Any strainers in the system?
Erm? :-\ What are those? ::) ;D
A mesh basket in the pipe to catch bits of crud.
It is unlikely that you will have one in a 15 year old domestic heating system but modern boilers might have one.
The commercial systems that I spend most of my time working with have lots of strainers and it can cause all sorts of grief when they block up......
Ah yes, no nothing like that.
The pump is OK though, I popped off the bleed screw and watched for a while and it doesn't stick or stop when the boiler shuts down. :y
Does the sound of the pump change when the boiler stops?
Does it sound as though the pump is full of air just before the boiler stops?
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Does the sound of the pump change when the boiler stops?
Does it sound as though the pump is full of air just before the boiler stops?
No the pump sounds the same.
It's almost like the boiler burps and releases a large bubble of air which then gets mashed up into a stream of little bubbles as they go through the pump.
I've now decided it's something to do with the boiler as I've run it until it starts glugging and gurgling and shuts down. Then I've turned the boiler off but left the pump running and eventually it all goes nice and quiet. Start the boiler again, and within 10 - 20 minutes it starts glugging again....
So I think it's either air getting in the heat exchanger somehow, maybe a crack or faulty joint somewhere (but there are no leaks) or air is sucking in via the automatic vent on the return pipe, accumulating in the heat exchanger then releasing out into the flow pipe and through the pump. :-\
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Could it not be that the boiler thermostat is getting lazy? Maybe it's heating too hot, to the point of boiling, and then not kicking back in again until it's all stone cold?
TBH, mine has always gurgled a little when up to full temperature. I think a lot of it is air coming out of suspension in the boiler and then getting re-absorbed once it's cooled a little, because I too never find any air when bleeding the system. I went round in circles for ages draining it, cleaning it, adding inhibitor, replacing valves that I thought might be admitting air, until I decided just to ignore it. ;D
This combined with a dodgy thermostat that's changed the operating temperature a bit might explain it?
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Could it not be that the boiler thermostat is getting lazy? Maybe it's heating too hot, to the point of boiling, and then not kicking back in again until it's all stone cold?
TBH, mine has always gurgled a little when up to full temperature. I think a lot of it is air coming out of suspension in the boiler and then getting re-absorbed once it's cooled a little, because I too never find any air when bleeding the system. I went round in circles for ages draining it, cleaning it, adding inhibitor, replacing valves that I thought might be admitting air, until I decided just to ignore it. ;D
This combined with a dodgy thermostat that's changed the operating temperature a bit might explain it?
Could it do that in the 10-20 min time frame mentioned :-\
I told him ages ago he needs a new boiler, but he wont listen ::) ;D
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If young Tigger takes into account all of the information given on here, there'll only be two bits of pipe he hasn't touched. ;D
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If young Tigger takes into account all of the information given on here, there'll only be two bits of pipe he hasn't touched. ;D
Both of his... :D
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If young Tigger takes into account all of the information given on here, there'll only be two bits of pipe he hasn't touched. ;D
Both of his... :D
Think I might have thermostat problems there as well! :o ;D
I thought that if a boiler boils or kettles as I think it's known, then it's very noisy? :-\
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Were dying to know if ya called plumber out yet?? :-\
Or are you freezing yer balls off ..... going to nearly freezing tonight .....
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Not yet... I was going to call him today but forgot! ::)
If I'd have called him out last week when it was nice and mild he'd have come out quickly and I'd be sorted, but now I'll have get in line behind all the other numpties who put it off till they got cold! :-[ ;D
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I thought that if a boiler boils or kettles as I think it's known, then it's very noisy? :-\
Can be. Normally, it's a series of thumps as water works its' way into pits in the heat exchanger surface, or sludge therein, gets very hot very quickly and rapidly expands into steam. Our boiler kettled like mad when we moved into the house. Flushed the system, ran it for a month with a cleaning solution, then flushed again, treated with inhibitor and it's been quiet ever since. It was 6 years old back then without any sign of the system having been serviced.
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I thought that if a boiler boils or kettles as I think it's known, then it's very noisy? :-\
Can be. Normally, it's a series of thumps as water works its' way into pits in the heat exchanger surface, or sludge therein, gets very hot very quickly and rapidly expands into steam. Our boiler kettled like mad when we moved into the house. Flushed the system, ran it for a month with a cleaning solution, then flushed again, treated with inhibitor and it's been quiet ever since. It was 6 years old back then without any sign of the system having been serviced.
The boiler might have been serviced, but unless you specifically ask for it, a system flush will never happen on a 'normal' boiler service ime.
Sir Tig, considering the age of his system, might be worth asking the plumber to power flush the system, it will at least clean all the sludge out of the system :y
I have on of those magnetic filters fitted to mine, that attracts the sludge and the plumber cleans it every year, altho not a lot of sludge is in it when he does, I guess it stops the sludge building up in the system :)
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So the plumbers been.....
..... listened to it glugging and gurgling.....
...... and the diagnosis is that it's nothing serious.....
Despite having drained it down and bled it etc etc he reckons I've still got air in the system and he's suggested that I drain it again and fill it from the drain cock with a pressure reducing valve so all the air is forced upwards and out the tank. He was here for about 20 minutes, no big red labels, no mention of new boilers and said "They're great old boilers! Keep it going as long as you can!" :y
I'll give that a go tomorrow and fingers crossed he's right! :)
PS: I did think about adding one of those magnetic filters into the system. :-\
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If it's nothing serious, why does it turn itself off after 20 minutes?
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So the plumbers been.....
..... listened to it glugging and gurgling.....
...... and the diagnosis is that it's nothing serious.....
Despite having drained it down and bled it etc etc he reckons I've still got air in the system and he's suggested that I drain it again and fill it from the drain cock with a pressure reducing valve so all the air is forced upwards and out the tank. He was here for about 20 minutes, no big red labels, no mention of new boilers and said "They're great old boilers! Keep it going as long as you can!" :y
I'll give that a go tomorrow and fingers crossed he's right! :)
PS: I did think about adding one of those magnetic filters into the system. :-\
Hope that fixes it for you Sir Tig......let us know how you get on :y
I only have a magnetic filter, as I have to, for the 7 year warranty on the boiler to be valid....it was about £100 iirc....but it has to cleaned every year....and probably worth it, not only for the boiler warranty but to stop sludge building up :y
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I have a MagnaFlow on the boiler in Bracknell too - it collects a surprising amount of crud.
Don't try and rinse it off the magnet without removing the plastic sleeve from the magnet though .. it's like chasing iron filings around ;D ;D ;D
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If it's nothing serious, why does it turn itself off after 20 minutes?
Because it's over heating with all the air in the system and he reckoned that the reason all this air isn't venting is that the pump is located just after the feed/vent pipe so flow is pretty strong there and the air gets dragged past the vent. :-\
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If it's nothing serious, why does it turn itself off after 20 minutes?
Because it's over heating with all the air in the system and he reckoned that the reason all this air isn't venting is that the pump is located just after the feed/vent pipe so flow is pretty strong there and the air gets dragged past the vent. :-\
Hmmm......hasn't the pump always been there? ;D
Yet this year it's all behaving differently?
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Heating systems contain a mixture of metals and there is an ever present risk of corrosion.
What might be happening is that corrosion is producing gas and that you are adding fresh water containing dissolved oxygen which is causing more corrosion and generating more gas.
Chuck a bottle of inhibitor in the header tank (if you haven't done it already) and carry on bleeding those radiators.
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Any news? Sir Tig
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Well I drained and filled it up via the drain cock on Saturday and for good measure threw in another bottle of cleaner, Sentinal X400 this time. Although there was still some air glugging about, it was an improvement on before and I think it's slowly but surely getting better. :y
I'll give it a few more days and will drain, flush and refill with inhibitor and maybe some de-scaler (Sentinal X200) that you can leave in. :)