Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: anV6 on 10 November 2016, 00:55:12
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For the last few weeks I dove deep into the Omega B, its history and development and tried to learn as much as I could about the car.
From the beginning I was always more of a fan of the B1 (PFL and MFL in the UK) than the B2 (facelift). It seems many share the same opinion here.
There is nothing wrong with the B2. It is still a nice looking car. It reminds me a lot of the Astra G. But that’s fine. It looks like an Opel product because it is.
But this is where the B1 is so special. It barely looks like your typical Opel. It has a unique design somehow. Not only among the other Opels of its day, but also among its competitors. Now there were many unique designs in the history of cars. But normally unique tend to mean bizarre or odd. Like a lot of the Fords such as the Sierra with it’s odd looking rear or the very odd Scorpio. But in the case of the Omega B1 uniqueness means beauty. I even see some of its design in later cars. This is probably why even though the B1 is older than the B2, the Omega B2 (FL) somehow looks more dated at this point in my opinion. The Omega B1's lines still look quite modern. If clear LED headlights and taillights were available for the B1 it would blend in with the new cars no problem. The lights are the biggest sign of its age.
So I wanted to start a thread to discuss the Omega B1 (PFL/MFL) design.
I think Opel clearly put all its eggs in the basket when working on the Omega A/Carlton’s replacement. They really went all out. I feel like if it had a 3-point star logo on the grill instead of the blitz (or Griffin) it would have been taken much more seriously, even if it was exactly the same car. But since it is an Opel it got overlooked and has always been underrated in my opinion. Badge snobbery is a real thing and as pathetic as we know it to be.
With its clean and elegant lines and yet somehow futuristic (for the time) I feel the Omega B1 could become a classic, if it had ever had a noteworthy version like the Carlton did with the Lotus. There is the Steinmetz but I guess it is just to rare and probably not impressive enough performance wise to do it.
But any time somebody says the Omega is bland I can never see it when I look at the PFL B1.
Let’s first take a look at how the other Opels of its time looked:
(http://starmoz.com/images/opel-vectra-1995-9.jpg)
(http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/OPELCalibra-1023_1.jpg)
(http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/OPELAstra3Doors-2865_4.jpg)
(http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/11181/z11181674Q.jpg)
As you see, the Omega B1 looked like none of them. Today all Opels basically look the same. Just different wheelbases and roof lines. The same can be said for VW, Audi, Porsche, Ford or Jaguar. I can barely tell the difference between a XE, XF and XJ if the picture is small and it’s not a rear or profile shot. BMW somehow manages a bit more difference as does Mercedes. But still very similar to one another. And although it has gotten worse and worse, this corporate look tendency started long ago. The Carlton/Omega had the same front as the Astra/Kadett. Taillights were very close too and so on.
But as you see the Omega B1 is a curious case. With the FL I guess they felt the need to bring it closer to the rest of the family.
Now I'm not saying the B1 is un-Opel. It naturally has the cues. But it's not the copy-and-paste job you usually see.
So is the Omega B1 bland? Compared to which of its contemporaries? A Lamborghini Diablo? Then maybe. But compared to the other cars in its class?
Well:
(https://s18.postimg.org/5epk8auzd/omegae4n74uyeny.jpg)
(http://automobilio.info/auto/Opel-Omega-B.jpg)
(http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/OPELOmegaSedan-1025_8.jpg)
(http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/MERCEDESBENZE-Klasse-W124--938_6.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2881023259_da6748afaa.jpg)
(http://media.automanager.com/wmphotos/016656/43e67ece0fee244b8cd88d1d2a030060/1384667125_640.jpg)
(http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/VOLKSWAGENPassat-2455_4.jpg)
(http://cdn.pinthiscars.com/images/1995-jaguar-xj6-wallpaper-1.jpg)
(http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/bmw/5-series/1994/oem/1994_bmw_5-series_sedan_525i_fq_oem_1_500.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/p1oacehyn/5series.jpg)
Sorry I don’t see it. Not only it is not bland but it also looked better and more ahead of its time than any of the above. Badge snobbery is a powerful thing indeed.
And not even the tuned versions of the competition looked better. To anybody who says an Omega B is bland, they must have never seen the Steinmetz Omega Kompressor or Turbo Steinmetz:
(https://s11.postimg.org/oc620ymn7/Steinmetz_Ome_Car.jpg)
(https://s13.postimg.org/bpm9q7wif/Steinmetz_Omega_Turbo_1.jpg)
So let’s discuss the B1 design. Why do you think Opel went far out? And why do you think they then did the opposite with the facelift car and made it so close to other Opels?
Did the B1 not sell as expected?
Did they think it didn’t look like an Opel product after all?
How do you think the B1 stacked up against its competition from a design point of view?
In forums we always see a lot of help threads and posts complaining about the cars. In a way this is what forums are mostly for. A kind of secondary support channel. I myself benefited immensely from the kindness and help given by the knowledgeable members here. So I wanted to have a different discussion about these great cars for a change.
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I love the picture (2nd one from the end), of the Steinmetz Estate, its almost like the photographer tried to take a picture on an Onega but ended up with the light bouncing and curving all over the place unexpectedly by mistake. :y
I did something similar a few years back of my FL 3.0 Irmscher Elite, tried to take a picture of the car parked up at night, but ended up with some nice looking reflections over the car, again all by mistake. ;)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg299/zirk-photos/post29122011083.jpg)
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14 pages in Omega help wasn't enough... ???
As for comparing it with the Jag XJ and the Passat... ;D would include the Audi in the list, but the 100/A6 is comparable, but the A8 is not. And it never really competed with the Mercedes W124 or BMW E34 as both were at the end of their respective production runs.
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Hi
I also like Omegas design, the PFL more than the FL.
But compairing it to other car designs, you forgot the most important one.
The NSU RO 80!
(https://s22.postimg.org/q3o1m6v4x/16111001.png)
At its time the RO was a revolution! In 1967 this car looks like out of this world.
Rolf
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No doubt about they were a great looking car, but love the pic of the W210 Merc just like mine 🙆🙆
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I love the picture (2nd one from the end), of the Steinmetz Estate, its almost like the photographer tried to take a picture on an Onega but ended up with the light bouncing and curving all over the place unexpectedly by mistake. :y
I guess the right term is "a happy accident". ;D
You got it as well in your picture. ;)
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14 pages in Omega help wasn't enough... ???
Excuse me, but enough for what exactly? This is not a help thread. I wanted to have an intelligent conversation about the Omega B1 design.
As for comparing it with the Jag XJ and the Passat... ;D would include the Audi in the list,
And I did. There is a picture of a contemporary Audi A6 in there. ;)
but the 100/A6 is comparable, but the A8 is not.
I didn't include an A8. Or are you saying the silver Audi is an A8? It was labeled as A6 C4.
And it never really competed with the Mercedes W124 or BMW E34 as both were at the end of their respective production runs.
Well, this is why I posted the next generation of them as well. My goal was to compare the Omega B1 with cars that where around at the time it came out in 1993. The W124 and E34 were the E-class and 5 series cars in 1993. ;)
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Hi
I also like Omegas design, the PFL more than the FL.
But compairing it to other car designs, you forgot the most important one.
The NSU RO 80!
At its time the RO was a revolution! In 1967 this car looks like out of this world.
Rolf
Sure. The RO 80 is a looker for sure. ;)
But I wasn't comparing the Omega B1 to cars of all time. The point is comparing it to the cars of it's time. The Omega B1 came out in 1993. So the comparison is to cars that were current models in 1993 and the cars the Omega B1 competed against. ;)
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No doubt about they were a great looking car, but love the pic of the W210 Merc just like mine 🙆🙆
It's a good looking car for sure. It's one of my favorite Mercedes cars actually. Like it way more than anything they put out in the 2000s.
But at this point the design is much more dated than the Omega B1. I know it's also an older design. But the problem is that Mercedes designs were pretty conservative till recently. The Omga B1 is a very forward design. This is why it holds up so well even today.
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Some good pictures there especially the Steinmetz ones :y :y :y
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Some good pictures there especially the Steinmetz ones :y :y :y
Yes, I really like the Steinmetz Omegas. More so than the Irmschers because the Steinmetz are not just a body kit. They are actually tuned. It's not just a look package. It's the ultimate Omega (B). ;)
And the styling is also the nicest I have seen on an Omega, PFL or FL. It's enhanced but with class and taste without going crazy like this:
(https://s13.postimg.org/5o5se1ttz/450_opel_omega_3.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.org/a5jqnt4ln/clive20060410omega1.jpg)
(https://s14.postimg.org/7eiss5pjl/hqdefault1.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/r8n2dde9l/LOL_1.jpg)
Yes, the last one is an Omega (Carlton).
I think Steinmetz did it right. It looks great, sporty and powerful but without looking tacky or ricer. And it's not just a body kit.
The hard thing is to find a real one to buy. So many cheap copies with just a look alike body kit, all tacky. The real Steinmetz built cars are rare. They didn't make many. Very, very rare and they fetch good money when they do come up for sale.
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Some good pictures there especially the Steinmetz ones :y :y :y
(https://s18.postimg.org/r8n2dde9l/LOL_1.jpg)
Yes, the last one is an Omega (Carlton).
last one is 'meanwhile in russia' ;D
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'meanwhile in russia' ;D
Been watching too many Bond Movies maybe....
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i9UlgWzuwRo/maxresdefault.jpg)
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14 pages in Omega help wasn't enough... ???
He's a Newbie Al, he's only just testing the water with 14 pages, you wait tell He gets warmed up. ;) ;D
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Some good pictures there especially the Steinmetz ones :y :y :y
(https://s18.postimg.org/r8n2dde9l/LOL_1.jpg)
Yes, the last one is an Omega (Carlton).
last one is 'meanwhile in russia' ;D
Arggh! My eyes! Make it stop!
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I'm starting to think a serious conversation about the design will not be possible?
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Hi anV6
I just like to show, where the roots of Omega design depend on.
Last summer I had the pleasure to park my Omega beneath a Ro. I was very surprised how many design elements both cars have in common.
Rolf
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I'm starting to think a serious conversation about the design will not be possible?
I wonder if you and I are looking at the same car?
The PFL Omega looks exactly what it is: Vauxhall's late 80s/early 90s styling cues applied to the Carlton bodyshell and interior. Look at the wing to bonnet/headlamp/bumper and door mirror to screen fits, door handles, bumpers all match both the mk3 Cavalier and the equivalent Astra. The exterior works well as a whole because it is based on a car that was utterly modern when introduced and was well proportioned, although the wheel sizes and styles do place it in time. The interior hasn't aged as well; the heater dials, door cards and upholstery look very dated.
The FL did the same thing but although the smoother bumpers and larger wheels work well, the grille still looks poorly integrated. The interior only lacks a large screen to look thoroughly up to date.
Steinmetz stuff just looks tacky and obviously aftermarket to me.
Irmscher is better integrated, but doesn't add anything worthwhile.
The PFL compares well to both E34 and E39 BMWs, although the E39 is the contemporary car.
Ford's Granada/Ultima change was a bizarre direction to take, and never sold as well as the car it was based on/replaced for a number of good reasons.
Large French cars hve never sold well in the UK, and the few Peugeot 604/Citroen XM/Renault Safrane(?) sold quickly disappeared.
Jaguars of the period were still stuck in their can't be bothered to style the new car phase, and aren't really a competitor.
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To be pedantic if you're using 1993 as your base date you'd need a picture of the XJ40,the X300[pictured didn't appear until late 1994.Anyway the Jaguar had style.The Omega B1 is for me very effeminately styled and lacks any kind of road presence,the B2 partly made up for this with its bigger bumpers,mirrors and wheels,although I think the grille could have been better integrated-but that was the corporate "face".Would I have another B1?No I wouldn't,but then nor would I have another B2!Would I have another X300 yes definitely!!
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Hi Nick
The Omega B PFL is not a new designed Omega A. Even some parts of the front chassis depends on late 60 constructions (!) the chassis was completely improved to get much better results by crash tests. Central point was to distribute energy from the crash zone into the complete chassis. So more energy could been decreased. Also the structure was improved by using stronger materials.
So the Omega B PFL was not a new construction, but a new and optimized setup.
I like the PFL styling. It comes smoth and curved....the FL turns an edge design over it. I do not like it.
Also the PFL reminds me of my alltime ultimate favourite Opel
(https://s22.postimg.org/dadk798o1/IMG_2404.jpg)
It was an Senator B 3.0i 24V. I drove him many years over a quarter million kilometers.
Rolf
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Personally I prefer the Facelift version of the Omega to the PFL / MFL, I just think the car feels a more modern car.
One styling design that I've always liked on cars is a front airdam - even if it's only really cosmetic on a road car!
(http://www.greatescapecars.co.uk/images/library/files/Rover_Vitesse_07.JPG)
(http://www.mediajustice.co.uk/images/cavturbowip/P1030046.jpg)
(http://nvdimages.motoring.co.uk/500x375/17075.jpg)
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I was hoping the thread would not become a PFL vs FL thread. >:(
I started the thread to discuss the PFL design. Not to make a "my car is better than your car" thread.
Oh well...
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You're not alone in thinking that PFL has 'something' in it's design.
Even today, it looks, well, quite well. It definitely aged better than most of the cars of it's time.
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Hi anV6
I just like to show, where the roots of Omega design depend on.
Last summer I had the pleasure to park my Omega beneath a Ro. I was very surprised how many design elements both cars have in common.
Rolf
Oh, OK. I guess I missed your point.
But I wouldn't agree the RO 80 is any root for the Omega B1 design. The proportions, the profile, I mean, the whole car is quite different. The only thing remotely similar is the way the C pillar joins the boot line. But I would not stretch it to the point of saying the RO 80 is the root for the Omega's design. :)
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I was hoping the thread would not become a PFL vs FL thread. >:(
I started the thread to discuss the PFL design. Not to make a "my car is better than your car" thread.
Oh well...
Oh well...
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I'm starting to think a serious conversation about the design will not be possible?
I wonder if you and I are looking at the same car?
The PFL Omega looks exactly what it is: Vauxhall's late 80s/early 90s styling cues applied to the Carlton bodyshell and interior. Look at the wing to bonnet/headlamp/bumper and door mirror to screen fits, door handles, bumpers all match both the mk3 Cavalier and the equivalent Astra. The exterior works well as a whole because it is based on a car that was utterly modern when introduced and was well proportioned, although the wheel sizes and styles do place it in time. The interior hasn't aged as well; the heater dials, door cards and upholstery look very dated.
The FL did the same thing but although the smoother bumpers and larger wheels work well, the grille still looks poorly integrated. The interior only lacks a large screen to look thoroughly up to date.
Steinmetz stuff just looks tacky and obviously aftermarket to me.
Irmscher is better integrated, but doesn't add anything worthwhile.
The PFL compares well to both E34 and E39 BMWs, although the E39 is the contemporary car.
Ford's Granada/Ultima change was a bizarre direction to take, and never sold as well as the car it was based on/replaced for a number of good reasons.
Large French cars hve never sold well in the UK, and the few Peugeot 604/Citroen XM/Renault Safrane(?) sold quickly disappeared.
Jaguars of the period were still stuck in their can't be bothered to style the new car phase, and aren't really a competitor.
I find it quite impossible for us to be looking at different cars, since I backed all my points with pictures. ;)
Yes, we are most definitely looking at the same car.
And I'm not seeing how the Omega B1 is typical late 80's/early 90's Opel. Yes, since we have started being pedantic, this is what the cars are. Opel. :P
They are designed and mostly built in Germany. Vauxhall is basically badge engineering. A Vauxhall Omega is no more of a Vauxhall than a Cadillac Catera is a real Cadillac. ;) :P
But back on topic, would you mind posting the pictures of the Opels which were current when the Omega B came out which looked a lot like it? Because the Omega B1 doesn't look like the Vectra A if that's what you are saying. Yes, they will obviously share parts from the bin. Like I said the Omega B1 is not un-Opel. But that is very different from looking like one another.
But I find it interesting that you mention design lines integration and brings up the Omega FL. I will just leave it at that as I really don't want to bring the FL car too much into the thread. This is about the PFL original design.
We will have to disagree about the interior too. I think it aged very well. It will not look current and neither does the FL's with or without a large screen. But I think this is missing the point. If I want or need an interior which looks current I will just buy a new car. But the PFL interior still looks good today. I agree about the heater dials though. But it's the only weak part of the interior IMO:
(https://s18.postimg.org/qz4v9xk1l/B1_heating_dials.jpg)
But later cars came with automatic climate control and that looks fine IMO:
(https://s16.postimg.org/4eq2xohmd/B1_heating_automatic_climate_control.jpg)
The thing is, I used to like the FL interior better as well, till I saw the PFL full leather black interior:
(https://s21.postimg.org/qcmg3otmv/B1_full_Leather.jpg)
I think the above interior looks better and more sporty. The plain cloth interior's door cards are not much to my liking. But the above looks great. Specially if instead of wood, which I always find tacky or too conservative, you have just plain gloss black:
(https://s18.postimg.org/j50tgdtqx/B1_Black_wood.jpg)
The black looks very contemporary IMO. But if you prefer aluminum:
(https://s13.postimg.org/57h1fcqdj/B1_aluminium.jpg)
As for wheels, well, today if you want it to look more up to date you can put any wheels or tires you want. So not a big deal.
As for Steinmetz looking aftermarket, this is the point of tuning. People pay for a Brabus because it looks different from the stock version. People will pay a lot for exclusivity. Not many of them are interested in paying a premium just to have a car which looks very similar to the stock one. The Steinmetz has a much more aggressive look than the Irmscher and a much stronger presence. The PFL Irmscher barely looks any different from the stock car. The FL Irmscher is a little better. But it looks too soft IMO, which is ironic since somebody suggested the PFL car looks effeminate. :)
On top of all that, the Irmscher Omegas are just a look package, which IMO is pointless. Again if we are to be pedantic , the Irmscher Omega is a "Ricer" Omega, as this is what the term means. Visual modifications without performance enhancements. Body kit and no engine to back it up. I myself dislike the term. But this is how they call it. So for me it's the Steinmetz. But looks is naturally very subjective. ;)
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To be pedantic if you're using 1993 as your base date you'd need a picture of the XJ40,the X300[pictured didn't appear until late 1994.Anyway the Jaguar had style.The Omega B1 is for me very effeminately styled and lacks any kind of road presence,the B2 partly made up for this with its bigger bumpers,mirrors and wheels,although I think the grille could have been better integrated-but that was the corporate "face".Would I have another B1?No I wouldn't,but then nor would I have another B2!Would I have another X300 yes definitely!!
Well, using 1993 to gauge whether the Omega B1 looked unique when it came out is the only way.
But to judge the competition it's fine to compare to cars which were current through the B1's whole life. Or 1993-1999. Hence why I posted a couple of generations of BMW and Mercedes. I just didn't feel like searching and posting pictures of every single 4-door saloon in the Omega's category made in the world from 1993-1999. I thought I made the point well enough and this being a car forum people would have an idea of what was around then. ;)
I have to disagree the Omega B1 looks effeminate. Look how little it took Steinmetz to make it look like a beast ready to jump on it's pray. :)
I think what you are calling presence and style in the old Jaguar I would call old fashioned, conservative and overall low tech looking. Horses for courses as you see. :y
And by the way, if you wouldn't want another Omega B1 or B2, it means you no longer have one, and even if you do, I must ask, what are you doing in an Omega forum? ::)
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One styling design that I've always liked on cars is a front airdam - even if it's only really cosmetic on a road car!
The PFL has two of them? What else do you want? ;)
And there were also versions that didn't have the fog lights and instead had larger air-dams.
Thirdly that Vauxhall MV6 bumper was never available in the Opels. Here it's only the uglier "fleet car" looking bumper.
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You're not alone in thinking that PFL has 'something' in it's design.
Even today, it looks, well, quite well. It definitely aged better than most of the cars of it's time.
It definitely does. Look at that profile and clean lines:
(https://s17.postimg.org/tp17bsaof/B1_profile.jpg)
You can just see the wind gliding over it effortlessly even with the car standing still. ;)
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To be pedantic if you're using 1993 as your base date you'd need a picture of the XJ40,the X300[pictured didn't appear until late 1994.Anyway the Jaguar had style.The Omega B1 is for me very effeminately styled and lacks any kind of road presence,the B2 partly made up for this with its bigger bumpers,mirrors and wheels,although I think the grille could have been better integrated-but that was the corporate "face".Would I have another B1?No I wouldn't,but then nor would I have another B2!Would I have another X300 yes definitely!!
And by the way, if you wouldn't want another Omega B1 or B2, it means you no longer have one, and even if you do, I must ask, what are you doing in an Omega forum? ::)
This forum has always welcomed Omega owners who have moved on to newer and better cars. I don't think its your place as a relative "newbie" to question why a long standing (4 years) member should come on to this forum if he's not prepared to buy another Omega!
I moved on a few years back after owning a few Omegas over the years to Jaguars (having owned a Mk2 3.8S saloon and a 3.8 E-Type back in the late 60s), and now run a 5.0V8 XJ Portfolio as my daily driver. Are you suggesting that after some 9 years on this forum, I should no longer come on here?
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Wings, doors and shell are identical between Pre, mid and post facelift...
Facelift looks cleaner due to all body colour. Earlier cars look fussier and more dated with their chrome garnish.
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To be pedantic if you're using 1993 as your base date you'd need a picture of the XJ40,the X300[pictured didn't appear until late 1994.Anyway the Jaguar had style.The Omega B1 is for me very effeminately styled and lacks any kind of road presence,the B2 partly made up for this with its bigger bumpers,mirrors and wheels,although I think the grille could have been better integrated-but that was the corporate "face".Would I have another B1?No I wouldn't,but then nor would I have another B2!Would I have another X300 yes definitely!!
And by the way, if you wouldn't want another Omega B1 or B2, it means you no longer have one, and even if you do, I must ask, what are you doing in an Omega forum? ::)
This forum has always welcomed Omega owners who have moved on to newer and better cars. I don't think its your place as a relative "newbie" to question why a long standing (4 years) member should come on to this forum if he's not prepared to buy another Omega!
I moved on a few years back after owning a few Omegas over the years to Jaguars (having owned a Mk2 3.8S saloon and a 3.8 E-Type back in the late 60s), and now run a 5.0V8 XJ Portfolio as my daily driver. Are you suggesting that after some 9 years on this forum, I should no longer come on here?
No longer have the car and comes back here to criticize and put things down? Is there much sense in that considering this is not Pistonheads but actually an Omega fan forum?
I don't presume to tell you what to do or if you should come on here or not. But newbie or not I still have the right to counter points I don't agree with. And I don't see any sense in selling your Omega then hoping on here to pimp your Jaguar. Do you see much sense in that? Do you consider this tactic productive? Do you think that adds anything to the community?
By the way, I'm not a relative newbie. I'm a full blown newbie, here. This doesn't reflect my actual experience with automobiles though. ;)
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Wings, doors and shell are identical between Pre, mid and post facelift...
Facelift looks cleaner due to all body color. Earlier cars look fussier and more dated with their chrome garnish.
Yes I know the wings, doors and shell are identical in all of them. ;)
And they were designed with the original front and rear end in mind. Probably why the original front and rear ends integrate way better into the car than in the FL models.
You may know that there were PFL cars with all body color and without all the chrome. And the FL models also have some chrome.
But naturally, whether you prefer one or the other is subjective and it's totally fine to like one over the other. They are both fine looking cars. :y
But I'm really trying not to make this thread about PFL vs FL. I could list all the reasons why I prefer the PFL etc. But this is not the point of the thread. Although people keep trying to make it about that. ::)
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Just another note about the all body color scheme.
As anything in life trends come and go. The all body color scheme picked up in the 80's with designs going as far as color coding even the wheels. Now as you probably know it's starting to slow down. Cars are having a lot more black on them again. So it's a matter of preference, as anything else. ;)
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PFL Omega is a very nice car. A bit under-rated perhaps (probalby as it played a role in a, at that time, dying class of non-premium executive cars).
But, as a long-term omega owner and fan, I'm always tempted by good PFL expamples that are available on the market for very chaep price.
For some time now, I am thinking about what can be tweaked on PFL design, to make it look better. As, IMO, there are various items on original design that could be done better. Not to make it look newer/more modern, just to make it look better. This is something I'd like to talk about, if someone has some ideas.
I'm not thinking about irmscher/steimnetz or similar body kits.
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To make it clear,yes I do still own a B2 Omega[I kept it for a purpose which I have not yet fulfilled,when I do I will get rid of it.I joined the forum as I owned[own]an Omega and wanted to know all sorts of stuff about it.I'm not knocking the Omega per se just that for me the pfl/mfl styling is too effeminate,with the fl being better in this regard.I would say that interior wise[in Elite guise at any rate-the only type I've owned]then the B1's were far better.I'm not "pimping" ???The XJ I no longer own that either.These are just my personal opinions and if you disagree-as you obviously do-that's fine it's each to their own at the end of the day isn't it?The Steinmetz version does look well,but then that's not a standard production version which is what I was basing my opinions on.
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To make it clear,yes I do still own a B2 Omega[I kept it for a purpose which I have not yet fulfilled,when I do I will get rid of it.I joined the forum as I owned[own]an Omega and wanted to know all sorts of stuff about it.I'm not knocking the Omega per se just that for me the pfl/mfl styling is too effeminate,with the fl being better in this regard.I would say that interior wise[in Elite guise at any rate-the only type I've owned]then the B1's were far better.I'm not "pimping" ???The XJ I no longer own that either.These are just my personal opinions and if you disagree-as you obviously do-that's fine it's each to their own at the end of the day isn't it?The Steinmetz version does look well,but then that's not a standard production version which is what I was basing my opinions on.
Fair enough. No harm done. :)
Looks is entirely subjective. ;)
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But, as a long-term omega owner and fan, I'm always tempted by good PFL expamples that are available on the market for very chaep price.
For some time now, I am thinking about what can be tweaked on PFL design, to make it look better. As, IMO, there are various items on original design that could be done better. Not to make it look newer/more modern, just to make it look better. This is something I'd like to talk about, if someone has some ideas.
I'm not thinking about irmscher/steimnetz or similar body kits.
The thing is making it look better will depend on what you like. It's very subjective, so it's difficult to make suggestions.
If you were to say making it look newer or more modern, or more sporty, at least we would have something to go at. ;)
But I think starting with the wheels is probably a good place. Wheels can incredibly change the look of a car and is an easy way to spice things up.
If the car is an early one with the old style headlights, replacing them with the newer HELLA type would also make it look better IMO.
So it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. ;)
What are you unhappy with in the car's design and what is your aim when you say "better"?
I would love to talk about it and finally start to discuss design. :y
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Well, let's start with the weak points of the design (IMO):
- front grill (standard one that was fitted on most 94-99 cars) - it just doesn't look right (steinmetz and catera front grills are far more better).
- wheels - regardles of the design, the ET for the rear wheels is to high, resulting with wheels on the rear axle being to far inwards
- front bumper - it's not a bad design, but I've always felt that it could be done better
- chrome strips -for sport looks, you have to loose them. And if you want style/bling thing, they are just not big and shiny enough (carltons had engough chrome, for instance).
How to make it look sportier is a well covered area, and it can be done to look very good.
IMO, omega, especially PFS, is an outdated car. No matter how good the condition is, it shows it's age. My idea is to use a good omega as a base, starting point, and do some subtile mods to make it look different. No chassis or panel modifications, suspension modifications limited to springs/dampers and similar. I would like to explore, brainstorm, if you will, other style type options. Of course, it must not go to the extent shown on page 1 (chav cars, meanwhile in russia and similar).
Some of ideas, and please bear with me, I have in my head:
- retro styled confortalbe cruiser
- rat look
- army/outdoor/utility/van look
- nascar styled sport look
If somebody is interested in something like that, let's talk.
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PFL Omega is a very nice car. A bit under-rated perhaps (probalby as it played a role in a, at that time, dying class of non-premium executive cars).
I wanted to approach this part of your post separately as it's a very interesting topic and distinct from the making it look better subject.
The Omega B in general was very overlooked and today it is very underrated. It offers so much more than many cars costing more. Looks is subjective, but you can't deny the bang for the buck. Compared to many of the other cars from it's time and even some newer ones it had good features that others didn't, even those which were more expensive. For example side airbags in the seats, instead of the much cheaper and less effective version mounted on the B pillar or doors which most cars had or have.
But it wouldn't matter how good the car was or where it was better than the competition. Or even how much more you had to pay to other manufacturers to get something much better or even which had the features the Omega did. Some people can't look past a badge.
As for the whole premium or non premium thing, don't you find it an amusing topic? :)
My mind changed a lot about that since I moved to Europe. Is an Audi really a premium car over an Omega? If you take away the badges, I can't really see it. The longer I live here the more I see Audis for what they really are. VWs. Is a Passat a premium car? Not to me and not here. I have driven C4 and C5 A6s. I can't say they feel or even look more premium than an Omega Elite or MV6. I know several people who have Audis here and to me they are nothing special. An A3 is basically a Golf!
Back in the UK and also in the U.S. people go bonkers over BMW, Mercedes and Audi. Here all of them are taxi cabs. Sure, they command some market presence. But nowhere as special. Every time I stop at a traffic lamp I'm surrounded by BMWs, Mercedes and Audis, as wheel as the other VW variations and French cars. And guess how many Omegas? None. I think I have seen only two Omegas around for the last several months. Many people don't even know what they are if you take away the badge and it's amusing to see what they guess it to be. :) With the FL you get a lot more of "Is it an Opel?". But most people can't really point out it's an Omega. So it's actually more special here than the "premium" cars.
So what is really "premium"? Is it really a real thing or just a fabricated impression crated by higher prices and urban legend? Is a Mercedes A or B really more Premium than a Passat or top of the range Insignia just because it has a plastic Mercedes badge on it?
What makes a car "premium"?
Luxury? The basic A class is not really more luxurious or nice as some of the top saloons from other "lesser" name plates.
Reliability? Mercedes from the 2000's are truly dreadful at that. BMWs break all the time too. VW is way more reliable than both.
Looks? Entirely subjective.
Personally I think badge snobbery has a lot to do with it.
So what if the Omega is not considered "premium" by most of the people who don't understand about cars out there or by badge snobs because it's an Opel/Vauxhall? Does their bottom of the line "premium" badge car have heated seats? Electric seats with memory? Leather interior? Side airbags? Cooled glove box? Air conditioner vents to the back seats? Heated washer nozzles for the front windshield? Headlight washers? Is it RWD? Is it a 4 banger or something more special? How many BHP? Well you get my point. ;)
I think this whole "premium" thing is smoke and mirrors. Mercedes, BMW and Audi make lesser cars too.
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Well, let's start with the weak points of the design (IMO):
- front grill (standard one that was fitted on most 94-99 cars) - it just doesn't look right (steinmetz and catera front grills are far more better).
Since you are in Croatia I'm presuming we are talking about the Opel version? Visually there are quite a few important differences. I personally like the Opel grill much better than the Vauxhall one, which looks more formal. Many just debadge the grill and that makes it look slickier somehow.
- wheels - regardles of the design, the ET for the rear wheels is to high, resulting with wheels on the rear axle being to far inwards
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Sorry.
- front bumper - it's not a bad design, but I've always felt that it could be done better
It's difficult to change the front bumper if you don't want to go with a body kit. I personally quite like the bumper. It's quite distinct.
- chrome strips -for sport looks, you have to loose them. And if you want style/bling thing, they are just not big and shiny enough (carltons had engough chrome, for instance).
Like I mentioned there were versions without most of the chrome. But you can always spray it all in the same color of the car if you want. Including the black bits too. Easy enough. ;)
How to make it look sportier is a well covered area, and it can be done to look very good.
IMO, omega, especially PFS, is an outdated car. No matter how good the condition is, it shows it's age.
I thought you said you liked the PFL car and think it looks quite well even today and that it definitely aged better than most of the cars of it's time?
I mean, it doesn't look like a 2016 car. Neither does the FL or a 2010 car for that matter. But if that's what you want just buy a 2016 model. Does a Lotus Carlton look outdated? Well, it looks of it's time and this is not a bad thing. Would I rather drive a Lotus Carlton over the huge majority of new cars today? Yes.
Outdated is a very loaded term. Technically it means something that shows it's date and there is nothing wrong with that. Many people buy older cars because they like the look of them.
But sometimes outdated is used as a derogatory term. If one wants a car which looks new just buy a new car. ;)
My idea is to use a good omega as a base, starting point, and do some subtile mods to make it look different.
If you want to make an Omega look different, why not buy a different car? If what you want is to make the Omega not look like an Omega I don't think I'm your guy. I like the lines of the car. ;)
No chassis or panel modifications, suspension modifications limited to springs/dampers and similar. I would like to explore, brainstorm, if you will, other style type options. Of course, it must not go to the extent shown on page 1 (chav cars, meanwhile in russia and similar).
Some of ideas, and please bear with me, I have in my head:
- retro styled confortalbe cruiser
- rat look
- army/outdoor/utility/van look
- nascar styled sport look
If somebody is interested in something like that, let's talk.
If what you want is to make a rat-rod or any other custom job it would be more productive to start a new thread about making a custom Omega. ;) :y
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Regarding the heater dials of the PFL, I believe they're designed perfectly. Say you get into your car on a cold winter morning, your windscreen misted up. The design of the heating dials means you turn each knob, in turn, to the far right (all clockwise). Perhaps this was thought about in the planning of it or just a happy coincidence? I've certainly seen other heating systems in more modern cars where you turn dials both clockwise and anti-clockwise in order to achieve the same result.
To me, that design itself (and the whole of the interior) is quite intuitive.
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Regarding the heater dials of the PFL, I believe they're designed perfectly. Say you get into your car on a cold winter morning, your windscreen misted up. The design of the heating dials means you turn each knob, in turn, to the far right (all clockwise). Perhaps this was thought about in the planning of it or just a happy coincidence? I've certainly seen other heating systems in more modern cars where you turn dials both clockwise and anti-clockwise in order to achieve the same result.
To me, that design itself (and the whole of the interior) is quite intuitive.
Yes, in my view an old-fashioned 3 knob heater is far superior to a climate control system that tries to second guess whether you're too cold or too hot, and gets it wrong half the time.
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Regarding the heater dials of the PFL, I believe they're designed perfectly. Say you get into your car on a cold winter morning, your windscreen misted up. The design of the heating dials means you turn each knob, in turn, to the far right (all clockwise). Perhaps this was thought about in the planning of it or just a happy coincidence? I've certainly seen other heating systems in more modern cars where you turn dials both clockwise and anti-clockwise in order to achieve the same result.
To me, that design itself (and the whole of the interior) is quite intuitive.
Yes, in my view an old-fashioned 3 knob heater is far superior to a climate control system that tries to second guess whether you're too cold or too hot, and gets it wrong half the time.
That's a very good point.
I guess what bothers Nick is the look as he seem to think they look dated. So the digital controls may be more to his liking. :)
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- wheels - regardles of the design, the ET for the rear wheels is to high, resulting with wheels on the rear axle being to far inwards
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Sorry.
How to make it look sportier is a well covered area, and it can be done to look very good.
IMO, omega, especially PFS, is an outdated car. No matter how good the condition is, it shows it's age.
I thought you said you liked the PFL car and think it looks quite well even today and that it definitely aged better than most of the cars of it's time?
I mean, it doesn't look like a 2016 car. Neither does the FL or a 2010 car for that matter. But if that's what you want just buy a 2016 model. Does a Lotus Carlton look outdated? Well, it looks of it's time and this is not a bad thing. Would I rather drive a Lotus Carlton over the huge majority of new cars today? Yes.
Outdated is a very loaded term. Technically it means something that shows it's date and there is nothing wrong with that. Many people buy older cars because they like the look of them.
But sometimes outdated is used as a derogatory term. If one wants a car which looks new just buy a new car. ;)
My idea is to use a good omega as a base, starting point, and do some subtile mods to make it look different.
If you want to make an Omega look different, why not buy a different car? If what you want is to make the Omega not look like an Omega I don't think I'm your guy. I like the lines of the car. ;)
For wheels and ET - with standard rims (ET33 or ET39) there is to much gap between the edge of the wheel/tyre and rear wheel arch. With lower et (ET20 or less) the rear wheel-base is wider, and it looks much better IMO. I think steinmetz rear wheels are around ET20, and look how 'powerful' it looks.
As for modifications - you can get some usual stock omega in standard wear-and-tear state, or stock one in perfect condition. Or you can find one that is modified to be sportier (irmscher/steinmetz and other variants). And that's that, IMO.
Now, my idea is not to do some drastic modifications to the car. Just use the approach that, lets say, steinmentz guys used - but rather than making it look sporty, I'd go for diferent styles. I.e. - changing front grill, wheels, maybe some new ideas on the color-schemes, different color of the floor carpets and maybe something to make the wood interior look better. But I woun't mess up your thread with that. :y
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How ever much you dress it up, the Omega B is a mainstream GM product, not a premium one. That's it, it was relatively inexpensive and relatively well equipped... In fact I suspect the specification is why you insist on confusing it with luxury/premium executives.
It had to be well equipped to sell. That's all there is to it.
Although I should add, had it only ever been produced in GLS, CD and CDX specs like the Omega A/Senator B, its strengths would have been the same... Comfortable, capacious large family car with decent road manners.
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How ever much you dress it up, the Omega B is a mainstream GM product, not a premium one. That's it, it was relatively inexpensive and relatively well equipped... In fact I suspect the specification is why you insist on confusing it with luxury/premium executives.
It had to be well equipped to sell. That's all there is to it.
Although I should add, had it only ever been produced in GLS, CD and CDX specs like the Omega A/Senator B, its strengths would have been the same... Comfortable, capacious large family car with decent road manners.
At launch, badge snobbery was not an issue, and the Omega sold well. It was in the luxury exec market. And would have remained so if further developed, but by the late 90s, its biggest problem was the need, in the UK, for a status badge.
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Yes perhaps what Vauxhall/Opel could have done with/could do with is a "premium"brand as Toyota did with Lexus and Citroen are doing with the DS range[there are no Citroen badges on the new DS's]whether or not GM could pull it off is another matter.Sadly badge snobbery/status is alive and well,people buy into the marketing that the likes of BMW,Mercedes etc are better built from better quality components,are more reliable and so on it all comes down to peoples perception of a particular brand.
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Quite. GM upmarket is Cadillac, not Opel and certainly not Vauxhall... And as a Cadillac, it bombed.
Had it been sold in Europe as a Cadillac then GM would probably have been alot stronger here. :-\
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Quite. GM upmarket is Cadillac, not Opel and certainly not Vauxhall... And as a Cadillac, it bombed.
Probably because it had more than about 50BHP/Tonne and didn't corner like a water bed. ;)
Had it been sold in Europe as a Cadillac then GM would probably have been alot stronger here. :-\
Hmm. Not sure there were enough "Boss Hog" wannabe's here for that to have worked. ;D
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I don't think Cadillac works as an EU brand, like Chevvy etc, it has a downmarket feel over here.
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Ffs that's my point... Had the Omega B been marketed as a Cadillac, it might have been a better start than trying to pass the STS as a luxury car.
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Right or wrong, but the image Cadillac has in Europe is very different to how Americans see them!
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Would that still hold true if the Omega B had only had a Cadillac badge on it rather than the Vauxhall/Opel/Chevrolet/Holden one?
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Ffs that's my point... Had the Omega B been marketed as a Cadillac, it might have been a better start than trying to pass the STS as a luxury car.
It'd be a brave company to attempt to release that they see as their premium offering on a downmarket (in EU) brand...