Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: grifter on 30 April 2017, 15:46:48
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Hi
Decided to tackle setting up the cams and crank today before removing belt. Watched the DVD to refresh my memory then set about it. First thing I noticed was upon pulling the crank round to near where I can place the lock on, and bringing the alignment marks up on the cams, when the right pulleys were aligned with the marks, the lefts were ever so slightly out. I could get the cam locking pins in to the right but not the left. I then tried putting the crank lock on before going any further and I can seem to get it to sit straight on the crank hub and have the bolt screw in. If I sit it flush on the crank the screw twists in at an angle as you can see in pic below.
I'm also looking at the cams again it seem there is other marks on it and am now wondering what ones are what. There seems to be one of the large notch marks aligning and on the other cam the large notch is way out.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-lock_zpstkylod45.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-lock_zpstkylod45.jpg.html)
Right cam, large notch aligns on left one, but smaller one on right aligns, larger notch is out.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-NS-Cam-pulleys_zpsk2jvutpx.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-NS-Cam-pulleys_zpsk2jvutpx.jpg.html)
Left cams, large notch on left aligns, right cam the large notch is out and smaller notch aligned with large notch miles out.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-OS-Cam-pulleys_zpsdxfmlppz.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-OS-Cam-pulleys_zpsdxfmlppz.jpg.html)
Any ideas where I've boobed? I'm just using ballpark alignment right now, not dead spot on until I can figure out what is the correct notches and to be sure I have crank locked correctly. To me it looks like the large notch on left cam and small notch on right cam are the ones I'm aligning. The initial concern was that the one side looked slightly out as compared to when other side was aligned accurately.
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Here's part of the problem with the crank locking tool:
The hole for the locking bolt is out
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-locking-tool-hole_zpsf298t9pu.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-locking-tool-hole_zpsf298t9pu.jpg.html)
Once the bolt starts feeding in the shoulders of the bolt starts trying to push the locking tool off the notches cut out of crank pulley thus I can't get it to screw in neatly home.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-locking-tool-bolt_zps6cvuuhrg.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-crank-locking-tool-bolt_zps6cvuuhrg.jpg.html)
The kit I have is a Nielsen locking tool for V6 opel ecotec engines. Wondering if this might be for an older version of engine perhaps? THe bolt hole in the crank is more offset than what is on the locking tool. On the tool it is right in the centre.
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Ignore notches in backplate, you should have a double horseshoe timing tool in the kit, how does it look on that?
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I would get another locking kit... Clearly a cheap copy :-X
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I would tend to agree. :y
If the crank isn't lining up properly, your on a hiding to nothing.
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Ignore notches in backplate, you should have a double horseshoe timing tool in the kit, how does it look on that?
It looked ok with that.
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Tending to agree about the kit, something not right with it. Refund and wasted time cause of a turd in the toolbox!
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As for the cam positions, each cam number should line up with its respective cam. Cams 1 and 2 are straightforward enough but cams 3 and 4 should line up as per your photo's.
Cam 3 shows the left notch as 3 so line cam 3 to the left notch and cam 4 shows the 4 as the right hand notch so cam 4 should be lined up with the right hand notch.
Hope that makes sense. :y
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http://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/3302
butterfly tool with the red dot/handle does the cam timing.
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If the tool is bad then just do it without.
You can get the cams lined up without any tools easily, then turn the crank about one tooth anti-clockwise, when you set the tensioner right it is gonna turn the cams that way a little so then you turn the crank mark to align, everything else will align with it and you will have the timing set right.
It is really easy to do even without tools.
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If the tool is bad then just do it without.
You can get the cams lined up without any tools easily, then turn the crank about one tooth anti-clockwise, when you set the tensioner right it is gonna turn the cams that way a little so then you turn the crank mark to align, everything else will align with it and you will have the timing set right.
It is really easy to bollax the engine without tools if you get it wrong...
Fixed ;)
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If the tool is bad then just do it without.
You can get the cams lined up without any tools easily, then turn the crank about one tooth anti-clockwise, when you set the tensioner right it is gonna turn the cams that way a little so then you turn the crank mark to align, everything else will align with it and you will have the timing set right.
It is really easy to do even without tools.
This is the kind of shitty advice that causes people to damage engines!
DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS!
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Wow. it feels like people are from 'murica here.
With some common sense and Autodata, it is impossible to do it wrong really and damage anything.
I was skeptical too at first cause everyone seems to praise like it's the word of god that you can't do it without tools but that is obviously not true and it isn't even hard without.
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If a steak is cooked right, you can cut it with a butter knife... Get it wrong and you starve...
Just because you can, does not mean that you should... ;)
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Yes the backing plate and crank and pulleys are all notched... Yes they can be made to line up without tools. Yes it might run well afterwards...
But, and it's a doozie :P, you forget one little, itsy witty detail which will cause an error in the setting...
Parallax.
Whilst they might look OK, without locking the crank and cams, they can move, and where they end up might look OK from a given perspective, you could end up with each cam progressively a tooth out... First time you start it you'll destroy the valves on the fourth cam closely followed by the rest.
Therefore the ONLY reasonable advice in a place like this, is to use the correct tools of proven quality. That way there is no risk and you can see EXACTLY where everything is without error :y
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Yes the backing plate and crank and pulleys are all notched... Yes they can be made to line up without tools. Yes it might run well afterwards...
But, and it's a doozie :P, you forget one little, itsy witty detail which will cause an error in the setting...
Parallax.
Whilst they might look OK, without locking the crank and cams, they can move, and where they end up might look OK from a given perspective, you could end up with each cam progressively a tooth out... First time you start it you'll destroy the valves on the fourth cam closely followed by the rest.
Therefore the ONLY reasonable advice in a place like this, is to use the correct tools of proven quality. That way there is no risk and you can see EXACTLY where everything is without error :y
I have replaced cam belts in the past but never on a V6. But everything ever said by those who do it all the time on ths Forum, and by specialist mechanics I have spoken to, all say you MUST you a cam locking kit.
As DG states just because you may be able to do something against all the advice there is does not mean it is right, and on this Forum there are "mechanics" at many levels; some are experts, others are near the novice standard. Thus, in general anyone who posts advice on this Forum must be aware of this and make sure they give the type of advice that an expert would give; i.e. you use a cam locking kit when you try and replace the cam belt. Common sense that! ;) ;)
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To build on Lizzie's comment, I have only ever done 2 cambelt changes in my life & they were both on V6 Omega's. I had a good quality locking kit, the DVD and an expert at the end of a phone when needed. To me they key thing was to take plenty of time, I was in no hurry at all.
I was interesting for me to see that the previous change done by a "proper garage >:(" had left off a bolt from the pulley block! Made me think what other shortcuts they had taken!
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I shall be doing my belt on my 2.6 next month and am using a Kent Moore locking kit which I found on eBay.i obviously havnt tried it on the bottom pulley yet but am intrigued to see how close tolerance it is or how much free movement can be obtained because this ultimately sets the starting point for the whole procedures accuracy.i wonder how the positioning varies with different makes of kit or even different engines ? .so it's a bit like the suspension alignment accuracy.everything depends on how those sensors / pick ups /gauges etc are fitted to the wheels in the first place that can then throw any readings and adjustments out. I remember years ago at many a tyre place they used to use the light bars and bounce back mirrors for front wheel toe setting. Maybe they still do .but they appear to clip onto the wheel rim by 3 sprung little wheels / rollers.the accuracy of such seems highly questionable on all but perfect wheels.a slight manufacturing lip error or a slight curb dink or even dirt or thick paint could make a difference this then throws the whole thing out of true. Point being.everythings accuracy depends on the initial accuracy of putting the measurement devices on .being it an engine ,wheel,balancing machine whatever
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It is really easy to do even without tools.
No, its **IMPOSSIBLE** to do the Omega V6 correctly without the correct locking timing kit. Absolutely impossible.
You should be able to get it good enough to run, but not correctly.
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I shall be doing my belt on my 2.6 next month and am using a Kent Moore locking kit which I found on eBay.i obviously havnt tried it on the bottom pulley yet but am intrigued to see how close tolerance it is or how much free movement can be obtained because this ultimately sets the starting point for the whole procedures accuracy.i wonder how the positioning varies with different makes of kit or even different engines ? .so it's a bit like the suspension alignment accuracy.everything depends on how those sensors / pick ups /gauges etc are fitted to the wheels in the first place that can then throw any readings and adjustments out. I remember years ago at many a tyre place they used to use the light bars and bounce back mirrors for front wheel toe setting. Maybe they still do .but they appear to clip onto the wheel rim by 3 sprung little wheels / rollers.the accuracy of such seems highly questionable on all but perfect wheels.a slight manufacturing lip error or a slight curb dink or even dirt or thick paint could make a difference this then throws the whole thing out of true. Point being.everythings accuracy depends on the initial accuracy of putting the measurement devices on .being it an engine ,wheel,balancing machine whatever
I've only ever used SP kits, and its all tight, no play in anything. If the tools have been use extensively, I guess there is a possibility of wear causing a little play.
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Well as dirty harry said a man's got to know his limitations, i certainly won't be trying this without locking kit.
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Agree with the above - it's possible to get to an approx setting where the engine will run, without the correct setting kit. However to get it spot on the correct fitting lit is essential, and I've done quite a few by now.
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Agree with the above - it's possible to get to an approx setting where the engine will run, without the correct setting kit. However to get it spot on the correct fitting lit is essential, and I've done quite a few by now.
Yep, if I was in a tight spot and absolutely had to get the car back on the road, then I would be confident that I could get it back running without a locking kit (after doing god knows how many of these belts!). I'd be taking it all apart again to check the timing once I'd got a locking kit to it, though.
The thing is, a usable locking kit costs half as much as the belt kit and will last for many changes. Is there any point not using one? :-\
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It is really easy to do even without tools.
No, its **IMPOSSIBLE** to do the Omega V6 correctly without the correct locking timing kit. Absolutely impossible.
You should be able to get it good enough to run, but not correctly.
Why? Done it atleast 5 times already and it's correct every single time somehow, must be a miracle or just pure luck.
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It is really easy to do even without tools.
No, its **IMPOSSIBLE** to do the Omega V6 correctly without the correct locking timing kit. Absolutely impossible.
You should be able to get it good enough to run, but not correctly.
Why? Done it at least 5 times already and it's correct every single time somehow, must be a miracle or just pure luck.
The reality is that's its close enough to run and not damage the engine, correct it is not :y
At last count I was into triple figures for V6 cambelt changes and have seen it all, its is pretty surprising how far out setup without the correct timing tool can get it and, how much better they run after the correct setup.
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I shall be doing my belt on my 2.6 next month and am using a Kent Moore locking kit which I found on eBay.i obviously havnt tried it on the bottom pulley yet but am intrigued to see how close tolerance it is or how much free movement can be obtained because this ultimately sets the starting point for the whole procedures accuracy.i wonder how the positioning varies with different makes of kit or even different engines ? .so it's a bit like the suspension alignment accuracy.everything depends on how those sensors / pick ups /gauges etc are fitted to the wheels in the first place that can then throw any readings and adjustments out. I remember years ago at many a tyre place they used to use the light bars and bounce back mirrors for front wheel toe setting. Maybe they still do .but they appear to clip onto the wheel rim by 3 sprung little wheels / rollers.the accuracy of such seems highly questionable on all but perfect wheels.a slight manufacturing lip error or a slight curb dink or even dirt or thick paint could make a difference this then throws the whole thing out of true. Point being.everythings accuracy depends on the initial accuracy of putting the measurement devices on .being it an engine ,wheel,balancing machine whatever
There is often a bit of slop in the crank tool position when offered up, my approach is to feel the slop and set the tool to the centre position. That way the error is, best case, removed or, worst case, halved. Key thing is though that the two banks are timed correctly to each other and pretty well the crank (if not spot one)
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I am now at the point of putting on the belt and so far have watched video section of reassembly and have installed the new tensioner unit. In the video after installing the belt, the engine is rotated to recheck the cams lining up, and for 3 & 4 cams the bottom tensioner was moved to pull the cams into alignment. However on the 2.6 the bottom idler is not offset, so if when I come to check it and the 3 & 4 are out, how do I, or what do I adjust, to pull those into alignment?
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There's no fine adjustment on the 2.6 for cams 3 and 4, as you say, so you just need to check that they are close. They normally turn out to be spot on even without any possibility of adjustment and, if they're out at all, they'll be a whole tooth out, which is easy to spot and requires the belt to be shifted relative to the sprockets.
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Also wondering if top idler, should be at certain position before fitting round cams, i fitted it without moving it, noticed in video it was set to 12 o clock after belt was put on, so tried that and it has left a lot of slack between cams, what position should i put top top idler once belt is round the cams?
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Also noticed there's no timing marks on belt for cam or crank, just part no, which is the same, there is on the old belt ???
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It is really easy to do even without tools.
No, its **IMPOSSIBLE** to do the Omega V6 correctly without the correct locking timing kit. Absolutely impossible.
You should be able to get it good enough to run, but not correctly.
Why? Done it at least 5 times already and it's correct every single time somehow, must be a miracle or just pure luck.
The reality is that's its close enough to run and not damage the engine, correct it is not :y
At last count I was into triple figures for V6 cambelt changes and have seen it all, its is pretty surprising how far out setup without the correct timing tool can get it and, how much better they run after the correct setup.
:y
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Also noticed there's no timing marks on belt for cam or crank, just part no, which is the same, there is on the old belt ???
if you're using the locking kit, marks on the belt are unnecessary.
If you're not using the kit, then you need them. But your chances of getting it timed correctly are very poor, and you will still need to improvise some way of locking the cams to get the old belt off and the new one on. You need the kit to this job easily, quickly and properly.
The idlers need to initially set so they are in the middle of their travel with the belt tight. This will allow you to actually adjust the cam timing correctly. If you don't find enough adjustment to time it correctly, you need to take the belt off and start again. The engine will run with all four cams a tooth out, which is why some people don't consider the locking set necessary. They are wrong.
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Also, I find, on the setups without the adjustable lower idler, if you start assembling the belt with the crank turned back (anticlockwise) about 1/2 to 1 tooth from the TDC position, the run up to cams 3 and 4 is a little looser, and the belt goes on easier, Once you've got it over cams 3 and 4 and loosely around the rest of the run, turn the crank back to TDC and insert the little wedge by the crank pulley. This should pull the belt run up to 3&4 tight and give you enough slack to assemble the belt over the rest of the pulleys.
No markings isn't necessarily a problem but you do need to make sure the belt is tight between each of the cam pullies when they are locked in position. Otherwise, you'll find they're a tooth out once you have rotated the engine and double checked the timing.
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I've now got to a point where the belt is on and the cams seem to be lining up ok. However when I initially put the belt on and done the tension the little marker moved quite easily to the outside notch on the tensioner without the belt feeling very tensioned. I wondered then that I would probably have to retension it at some point. I then spun the engine a few turns then checked the cams. 3/4 were ok, 1/2 needed pulled in a little, so I moved the roller offset cam down towards 8/9 o clock position. I had to move this a few times as the 1-2 bank kept coming back round to line up and were out slightly. After 3 or 4 tries this then got to a point it was ok and didn't need any more adjustment. I then noticed the tensioner was now looking a little over tight and the belt feels the same on the long run down to crank. Should I now loosen this off slightly back to the outside notch and recheck? I'm wondering if I have put more tension on the idler and that is now showing on the tensioner tell tale notch.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-tensioner-position_zpsghugrfa3.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-tensioner-position_zpsghugrfa3.jpg.html)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-idler-position_zpsbnppwwqj.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-idler-position_zpsbnppwwqj.jpg.html)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-LH-cam-bank_zpsrjwgurjo.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-LH-cam-bank_zpsrjwgurjo.jpg.html)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q11/Pichost28/Cars/Omega/omega-RH-cam-bank_zpso43fq6qi.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/Pichost28/media/Cars/Omega/omega-RH-cam-bank_zpso43fq6qi.jpg.html)
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I think, but stand to be corrected, that the belt needs to go one or two teeth clock wise on the cams, with the slack on the run from 4 to the crank being adjusted out of the pulley on that run :y
Do it one tooth and retry. If it's better, but still a bit tight on the tensioner, then move it a further tooth...
Hopefully someone can confirm as I have an inkling that I mean anti clockwise ::)
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I think, but stand to be corrected, that the belt needs to go one or two teeth clock wise on the cams, with the slack on the run from 4 to the crank being adjusted out of the pulley on that run :y
Do it one tooth and retry. If it's better, but still a bit tight on the tensioner, then move it a further tooth...
Hopefully someone can confirm as I have an inkling that I mean anti clockwise ::)
If this is a 2.6 there won't be an adjuster on that run Al, just an idler, unless I've misunderstood what was meant. :y
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My bad, lost my bearings on the pictures... :-[
Lock all four cams, slacken tensioner and top pulley, move belt one tooth anticlockwise on 1/2 and re tension both pulleys.
Betterer :-\
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To the OP.
It may be the angle of the photo's that makes cam 4 look slightly out :-\ , a straight on photo would conclude that. :y
Assuming that when you are looking straight on, each notch is bang on the notch of the setting gauge, and the crank is still correct, can you not just back off the tensioner a bit and then recheck everything else. The upper adjuster appears to be in a good position as per your photo. :y Have you rotated the crank through a full cycle and checked the tensioner each time, as it doesn't always land in exactly the same place.
When done, just triple check everything, especially the torque of the adjuster/ tensioner bolt/nut, making sure that you hold its matching part with a spanner/Allen Key when torquing them up. :y
Well done for doing it. :y
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To the OP.
It may be the angle of the photo's that makes cam 4 look slightly out :-\ , a straight on photo would conclude that. :y
Assuming that when you are looking straight on, each notch is bang on the notch of the setting gauge, and the crank is still correct, can you not just back off the tensioner a bit and then recheck everything else. The upper adjuster appears to be in a good position as per your photo. :y Have you rotated the crank through a full cycle and checked the tensioner each time, as it doesn't always land in exactly the same place.
When done, just triple check everything, especially the torque of the adjuster/ tensioner bolt/nut, making sure that you hold its matching part with a spanner/Allen Key when torquing them up. :y
Well done for doing it. :y
It is the photo that looks out. The cams all line up perfect. I did take tensioner back a bit to where it should be then readjusted idler. Have spun engine a good few times with plugs out and in and everything lines up nice with about 10mm slack in longest run. Initially found that 3 & 4 lined up bit 2 was a bit out, moving idler sorted that. That's when the tensioner started tightening up, so put back a bit, adjusted idler a bit more to bring first bank back in and eveything a ok now. Because i had no cam marks on new belt i could also count teeth between marks on old belt and check on new belt. 63 teeth between cam 2 & 3, just as an additional mechanical timing check.