Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 10:35:20
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anti-squeal shim to the piston or the caliper? :-/ The set I'm replacing I've fitted the shim to the piston but they've been squealing like a stuck pig! ::)
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piston i thought.
chamferred the leading pad edges? Copperslip (mostly to annoy Gayboy Gixer ;D)?
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piston i thought.
chamferred the leading pad edges? Copperslip (mostly to annoy Gayboy Gixer ;D)?
The new set of TC pads already are. The old set still had some of the original chamfer left but are a little over halfway worn through.
I've got loads of copper slip! ;D ;D
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I don't think it makes much odds Andy tbh. Can you pinch the shim off the old pad and stick it on the non shimed pads? Gives shims all round then, they are only stuck on with glue. Double sided tape will do.
And tc pads already have massive shamfers on them, assuming it's tc pads you have?
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I don't think it makes much odds Andy tbh. Can you pinch the shim off the old pad and stick it on the non shimed pads? Gives shims all round then, they are only stuck on with glue. Double sided tape will do.
And tc pads already have a massive shamfers on them, assuming it's tc pads you have?
Doh! It never occured to me to nick the old shims. ::)
They are TC pads. :y
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I don't think it makes much odds Andy tbh. Can you pinch the shim off the old pad and stick it on the non shimed pads? Gives shims all round then, they are only stuck on with glue. Double sided tape will do.
And tc pads already have a massive shamfers on them, assuming it's tc pads you have?
Doh! It never occured to me to nick the old shims. ::)
They are TC pads. :y
Got to wipe all that copper slip off now though. ;D. :-X. ;)
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Got to wipe all that copper slip off now though. ;D. :-X. ;)
Carefully appled to where it matters! :y :y ;)
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I put the rubber backs to the caliper, never bother with shimming it :-/
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I put the rubber backs to the caliper, never bother with shimming it :-/
the rubber back IS the anti-squeal shim :-/
So you've changed your mind now. ;) ;) ;)
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I put the rubber backs to the caliper, never bother with shimming it :-/
the rubber back IS the anti-squeal shim :-/
So you've changed your mind now. ;) ;) ;)
Is it? What is that thin sheet on the other side then? Or am I thinking of the Rover? Me confuddled now ;D
Certainly, I always put the rubber towards tha caliper, not the piston.
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..... Me confuddled now ;D
:-X :-X :-X :-X ;)
Certainly, I always put the rubber towards tha caliper, not the piston.
I've got a rubber faced shim on each now. Both rears have a rubber faced shim, but there are two pistons, so maybe the shims should go to the piston. :-/ :-/
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i thought that the shims went on the backing plate of the pad :-/
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i thought that the shims went on the backing plate of the pad :-/
they do ;) ...... but the question was which one? Inboard pad next to the piston or outboard pad against the caliper? ;) ;)
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The anti-squeal shims are a direct replacement to some shims that are fitted standard. If you look at the caliper where the sides of the pads rub against the caliper you will see them.
according to that caliper side :y
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It seems that traditionally they are fitted to piston side Andy but can be fitted to all pads if you so wish. Definately on piston side on mine. Big round circle on shim gave me a clue. ;D :y
Is this link of any use.
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/brake_noise/noise_shims_brake_pads_bed_in.shtml
Regards
Alan
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It seems that traditionally they are fitted to piston side Andy but can be fitted to all pads if you so wish. Definately on piston side on mine. Big round circle on shim gave me a clue. ;D :y
Is this link of any use.
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/brake_noise/noise_shims_brake_pads_bed_in.shtml
Regards
Alan
I found that link too. ;)
Piston side was how I'd fitted them the last time, but as they were squealing like a stuck pig I was just after other opinions. :y :y
Previous sets of TC pads also had a direction of rotation one of them too. That seems to have been discontinued. :-/
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Put EBC "Green Stuff" pads on 'em (like moi!) ;)
Expensive yes - but what a difference in performance, and much less dust too.
You know that I don't 'skimp' Andy - only the best for our TD mate! ;D
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Put EBC "Green Stuff" pads on 'em (like moi!) ;)
Expensive yes - but what a difference in performance, and much less dust too.
You know that I don't 'skimp' Andy - only the best for our TD mate! ;D
mine were TC's finest. :y :y :y
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It seems that traditionally they are fitted to piston side Andy but can be fitted to all pads if you so wish. Definately on piston side on mine. Big round circle on shim gave me a clue. ;D :y
Is this link of any use.
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/brake_noise/noise_shims_brake_pads_bed_in.shtml
Regards
Alan
I found that link too. ;)
Piston side was how I'd fitted them the last time, but as they were squealing like a stuck pig I was just after other opinions. :y :y
Previous sets of TC pads also had a direction of rotation one of them too. That seems to have been discontinued. :-/
Yes i noticed that.i'm sure there has been a dumbing down on tc pad spec. How do you find the pedal feel?
And as TB says re the shimmed side to caliper imo. But as said previosly i dont think it makes much odds.
Only other thing to look for is that the pads seat flat in the back of the caliper and on the piston face so they cant osilate/rock. If they wobble under brake pressure they'll osilate at high frequency and squeal like hell on earth.
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Yes i noticed that.i'm sure there has been a dumbing down on tc pad spec. How do you find the pedal feel?
And as TB says re the shimmed side to caliper imo. But as said previosly i dont think it makes much odds.
Only other thing to look for is that the pads seat flat in the back of the caliper and on the piston face so they cant osilate/rock. If they wobble under brake pressure they'll osilate at high frequency and squeal like hell on earth.
I've never had any problem with TC pads, but I've never bought 'real' Vx pads to compare them with.
I started on my cam cover gaskets before I test drove it so can't tell you what they feel like now. ;)
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Yes i noticed that.i'm sure there has been a dumbing down on tc pad spec. How do you find the pedal feel?
And as TB says re the shimmed side to caliper imo. But as said previosly i dont think it makes much odds.
Only other thing to look for is that the pads seat flat in the back of the caliper and on the piston face so they cant osilate/rock. If they wobble under brake pressure they'll osilate at high frequency and squeal like hell on earth.
I've never had any problem with TC pads, but I've never bought 'real' Vx pads to compare them with.
I started on my cam cover gaskets before I test drove it so can't tell you what they feel like now. ;)
The set in my current car, 60k miles 03, are not oe/look like tc pads but the feel is not far off oe levels.
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The set in my current car, 60k miles 03, are not oe/look like tc pads but the feel is not far off oe levels.
I'll let you know in a few hundred miles.
I really must use my Omega more. I tried to go to work in it last Sunday but the battery was flatter than a very flat thing. Hey Ho! ;) :y
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Did you come to any definitave conclustion on this? Shims to piston or caliper side?
Whilst waiting for Vx to cough up the bits for the cam belt I decided to fit a set of TC pads tonight. Opened the box to find two pads with shims, and two without. I thought "that's strange" so opened a second box (got 2 sets from the dealer for £5 each at their last clearout) - exactly the same two - with, two without. So I took a 50-50 punt and fitted the shimmed pad piston side.
Car is still up in the air with wheels off, so dead easy for me to change at this stage.
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Did you come to any definitave conclustion on this? Shims to piston or caliper side?
Whilst waiting for Vx to cough up the bits for the cam belt I decided to fit a set of TC pads tonight. Opened the box to find two pads with shims, and two without. I thought "that's strange" so opened a second box (got 2 sets from the dealer for £5 each at their last clearout) - exactly the same two - with, two without. So I took a 50-50 punt and fitted the shimmed pad piston side.
Car is still up in the air with wheels off, so dead easy for me to change at this stage.
Good god Malc ........ how old is this post? ;D I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast this morning! ;) ;) ;)
No idea now Malc, I really can't remember ...... sorry!
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Good God yet another old post resurrected ::)
If by shim you mean the rubber backing on the pad this should be fitted caliper side not piston side ;)
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I've always found that one pad has a bloody great spring clip welded to whilst the other does not :-\
Oddly, the clip only fits the piston side ::)
Actually that might have been a Vectra C ::)
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Good God yet another old post resurrected ::)
Not much point having a search function? I had the same question, and there was no definitive answer last time :-\
If by shim you mean the rubber backing on the pad this should be fitted caliper side not piston side ;)
LC pads generally have rubber backs/shims on both inboard and outboard pads, and the calipers have pistons inboard and outboard. So I guessed the ribber/shim went piston side. Glad I asked now :)
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I've always found that one pad has a bloody great spring clip welded to whilst the other does not :-\
Oddly, the clip only fits the piston side ::)
? ? - not on TC pads mate ???
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Good God yet another old post resurrected ::)
Not much point having a search function? I had the same question, and there was no definitive answer last time :-\
If by shim you mean the rubber backing on the pad this should be fitted caliper side not piston side ;)
LC pads generally have rubber backs/shims on both inboard and outboard pads, and the calipers have pistons inboard and outboard. So I guessed the ribber/shim went piston side. Glad I asked now :)
Start a new post then ;)
What are LC pads? Lotus Carlton?
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Start a new post then ;)
Ok if that's how you do it round here. Most other fora that I'm on encourage you to keep the same question in one thread.
What are LC pads? Lotus Carlton?
Yes.
Not 100% sure yet, but endevours may not have been in vain. Got a feeling my one year old wishbones have FUBAR rear bushes.
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Actually that might have been a Vectra C ::)
Astra G have a clip fixed to one of them ....... never done a vectra ;)
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I lose track ::) until recently was looking after 3 Vectras and the Omega, brake changes tend to blur into each other...
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I've always found that one pad has a bloody great spring clip welded to whilst the other does not :-\
Oddly, the clip only fits the piston side ::)
Actually that might have been a Vectra C ::)
???
Just fitted pads this morning , think im going to have to take them to bits again to check they are on right , never noticed any shim :-[
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I've always found that one pad has a bloody great spring clip welded to whilst the other does not :-\
Oddly, the clip only fits the piston side ::)
Actually that might have been a Vectra C ::)
???
Just fitted pads this morning , think im going to have to take them to bits again to check they are on right , never noticed any shim :-[
On an Omega? they don't have a shim, but one of the pads has a rubber-ish coating on the back
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From memory, OE pads have shims, and fit any way. TC has 2 pads with a rubber back, which goes opposite piston. TC pads need a chamfer filed on leading edge if not present.
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I've always found that one pad has a bloody great spring clip welded to whilst the other does not :-\
Oddly, the clip only fits the piston side ::)
Actually that might have been a Vectra C ::)
???
Just fitted pads this morning , think im going to have to take them to bits again to check they are on right , never noticed any shim :-[
On an Omega? they don't have a shim, but one of the pads has a rubber-ish coating on the back
Yep definitely going to have to take them to bits on omega ::) May have to climb inside wheelie bin to check the old ones :-[
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On an Omega? they don't have a shim, but one of the pads has a rubber-ish coating on the back
It's a bit like Hoover, and tappet. They may not be 'shims' in the original sense of the word, but anything stuck to the back of a brakepad is now known as a 'shim'
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Isn't the 'shim' the thin plate that comes away from the pads once there cooked :-\
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Isn't the 'shim' the thin plate that comes away from the pads once there cooked :-\
Thats on the rears :) They just fall off ;D
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On an Omega? they don't have a shim, but one of the pads has a rubber-ish coating on the back
It's a bit like Hoover, and tappet. They may not be 'shims' in the original sense of the word, but anything stuck to the back of a brakepad is now known as a 'shim'
Perhaps I should have said hey don't have a steel shim (like some cars' brakes) :y :y
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I think the word 'shim' as others have eluded to is a term that many use and don't know what it means.... me included.
I thought shims were the removable pieces of metal that fit to the caliper bracket that the pads ride on.... then I've seen some pads that have that removable plate on the back...also referred to as a shim.
What is that plate for anyway???
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What is that plate for anyway???
Antisqueal
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What is that plate for anyway???
Antisqueal
Why don't they all have it?
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What is that plate for anyway???
Antisqueal
Why don't they all have it?
Cost I expect
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What is that plate for anyway???
Antisqueal
Why don't they all have it?
Cost
Ok, thanks :y
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What is that plate for anyway???
Antisqueal
Why don't they all have it?
Cost
Ok, thanks :y
I edited my post to read I suspect cost
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Copperslip is cheap enough :y
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Copperslip is cheap enough :y
But you need the permission from Gixer first before you use it ..... :)
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Copperslip is cheap enough :y
But you need the permission from Gixer first before you use it ..... :)
Pah ;D live on the edge...
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What's Chris's issue with copper grease? ??? :D
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What's Chris's issue with copper grease? ??? :D
(http://voltalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/1sm032dunno.gif)
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What's Chris's issue with copper grease? ??? :D
(http://voltalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/1sm032dunno.gif)
Possibly, that just like sand, it gets everywhere ;D
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What's Chris's issue with copper grease? ??? :D
(http://voltalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/1sm032dunno.gif)
Shims are applied to damp out squeal, which is USUALLY caused by resonance from a badly seated pad, allowing it to rock at high frequency which sounds like a squeal. Ask Kai, used to be a member here. His car had cheap ferodo pads fitted that had a VERY thick brittle paint on the back(ing) with no shims.
Over time with piston pressure, the paint cracked, then the metal backing rusted causing a high spot in the pad back. They rocked in the calliper so squealed ....so bad I could hear him braking for junction 11 of the m4 and got progressively louder as he got near the house to have it fixed ;D
Pad material can also squeal, but less common these days, unless you fit a certain batch if tc pads a year or two ago.
Shims are usually a softer metal. Drilled brass on some bike pads. Oe omega pads have riveted on shims on all 4 pads, tc pads are much cheaper so have only one shim per side. They are shims in this care because they are a spring metal type material with a rubber pad stuck on top of that. It is a metal shim under the rubber.
The reason the shim goes to the non piston side is because the calliper is more likely to resonate than the piston side which is insulted from further metal components by seals and fluid. Not sure if the piston material is actually softer as well, but it has a brass colour. Where as the calliper is a big cast solid lump with a wider area on the pad.
Copper slip? Its shite, that's what's wrong with it. ;D ....that's not true actually, its shite at stopping brake squeal, proof being AndyB by definition is Mr a Copper slip by confession, smears copper slip all over his pad backs, yet here he is moaning his brakes are squealing ;D
It's accepted, for some reason, that smearing your brake pad backs with copper slip will silence a squeal once it starts. This is utter bollards. Ask AndyB(although he'll deny it) and Kai, who had gallons of copper slip dripping off his calipers from the heat, but yet they squealed like a stuck hurd of pigs.
It will however, go some way to stopping corrosion forming on the calliper and piston so high spots don't form from corrosion so readily. There by keeping squeal at bay.
Copper slip will not, however, cure a pre exiting squeal, simply by smearing it on the pad back for more than a couple of days at most until the copper slip is washed out or swished aside by calliper pressure.
But if your brakes aren't squealing, don't worry... If they do, fit shims off the old pads or swap the shimmed pad to the calliper side. File any high spots off the calliper and piston and make sure everything is seated correctly . ;)
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Ask AndyB(although he'll deny it) and Kai, who had gallons of copper slip dripping off his calipers from the heat, but yet they squealed like a stuck hurd of pigs. ....
You must be cofusing me with someone else ..... ::)
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Been shimmy-ing this morning ::) all pads in correct now . And a good dollop of copper slip :P :P
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Just been down the dealer to collect (most of :-\ some if it has to come from Germany!) the parts for the timing belt job. Whilst there I asked their techies.
They didn't know for sure (which didn't surprise me ;D ), but they decided amongst themselves that they would probably fit the pads with the 'shims' away from the piston and against the caliper. Their reasoning was that you don't want anything soft against the caliper piston since there is a small contact area between piston and pad, and the piston will dig into it, and the pad can sit and rock unevenly causing squeal. Whereas if you put the soft stuff against the caliper frame then it's held top and bottom by the two prongy bits of the caliper, so can't rock.
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Did you ask them about copper slip ::)
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Did you ask them about copper slip ::)
I don't care what they say about copper slip. I use gallons of the stuff every time I do my pads. All over everything - friction material, disk surface. Stops them rusting ;D
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Did you ask them about copper slip ::)
I don't care what they say about copper slip. I use gallons of the stuff every time I do my pads. All over everything - friction material, disk surface. Stops them rusting ;D
:y
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There is proper coppaslip, then the shite that factors/Hellfrauds/retards at ECP/ebay sell.
The latter may help with squealing briefly. Buy proper coppaslip.
The only time I've had brake squeal on an Omega is when Gixer fitted some pads ;D
(and the subsequent set - not sure why, a batch prone to squeal I guess).