Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Debs. on 10 November 2011, 16:33:38
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Further to the pup-mobile`s ongoing idle-stalling issues; I`ve sourced a replacement (known good) ECU thermo-sender and plan on swapping it this weekend.
I know it`s located on the aft-side of the coolant-bridge, so here`s the question:
What has to come off the engine to do the job?......I`m thinking: bagpipes and the IAV, plenum w/o EGR and breather hoses, throttle plate and cable brkts......but, can I get away without removing the intake risers?
Whilst I`m at it, I intend to blank off the EGR feed to the plenum with a bit of cut-to-fit copper sheet (actually, an opened-out bit of annealed 22mm C/H pipe.).
If this doesn`t work and stop the constant stalling at junctions (and the 'bobbing' idle)......I`m all out of ideas. :'(
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Just undo the plenum and upturn it to rest on the coolant reservoir..saves removing throttle cable and cruise.
Only need to undo the top part of the "bagpipes " at the large jubilee clips and fold them around to face the grille.
Fuel rail comes off aswell but you should have sufficient access to the coolant bridge area without removing the bottom "sandwich" plate.May be easier with the coolant bridge removed but would require the sensor undoing first as you would have only limited ability to get pressure on the spanner..in which case would need new doughty seals to coolant bridge.
Shouldn,t provide you with any nasty surprises as just unbolting bits and replacing again as is some many jobs on these V6,s. :y
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Plenum, inlet / inlet bridge and it's there at the back :y
Sorry Debs as I don't know the history, but stalling - I'm presuming you have no code 19? :y
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Plenum, inlet / inlet bridge and it's there at the back :y
Sorry Debs as I don't know the history, but stalling - I'm presuming you have no code 19? :y
Hiya James, so far:
It`s had a new (VX) crank-sensor
Replacement IAV (known good)
Replacement MAF (ditto)
New plugs/leads
Thorough clean of throttle plates/breathers and a check for any vacuum leaks.
.....and still, she stalls at most junctions and the tacho. 'bobs'. :-\
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Think I PM'd Pete on this, we need to be absolutley certain that there are no air leaks.
As for the sensor, follow the guide for changing the cam cover gaskets......
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weve sprayed carb cleaner all round, no change in engine noise.....livedata snapshot follows....
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heres the live data...Before some parts replaced (Maf & ICV)
Identifier 0D
Battery Voltage 13.8 V
Immobiliser Signal Received
Immobiliser Active
TPS Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0.51 V
Simulated Idle Position Active
Simulated Full Load Switch Inactive
Mass Air Flow Sensor 0.64 V
Mass Air Flow Sensor 10 kg/h
Coolant Temperature 1.40 V
Coolant Temperature 74 °C
Intake Air Temperature 3.08 V
Intake Air Temperature 31 °C
Engine Type 6 Cylinder
Transmission Coding Automatic Transmission
Park/Neutral Switch P - N 0V
A/C Information Switch (Air Conditioning) Inactive 0V
A/C Compressor Switch (Air Conditioning) Inactive 0V
Telltale (Check Light) Off 12V
Fuel Pump Relay Active 0V
Spark Angle before TDC (Top Dead Centre) 4 °CA
Ignition Coil Cyl. 1+4 (Cylinder) Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 2+5 Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 3+6 (Cylinder) Load
Knock Signal Inactive
Knock Retard 0 °CA
Secondary Air Pump Relay Inactive 12V
EGR Valve (Exhaust-Gas Recirculation) Inactive
EGR Position Feedback (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) 0.68 V
Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve 0%
O2 Sensor 1 702 mV
O2 Sensor 2 537 mV
O2 Sensor Loop 1 Closed
O2 Sensor Loop 2 Closed
Air/Fuel Ratio 1 Lean
Air/Fuel Ratio 2 Rich
O2-Loop 1 Integrator 140 Steps
O2-Loop 2 Integrator 123
O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 198 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 0 Steps
O2-Loop 1 BLM Partial Load (Block Learn Map) 116 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Partial Load(Block Learn Map) 122 Steps
Hall Sensor Active
Engine Speed Pulse Active
Engine Speed 612 RPM
Idle Air Control 155 Steps
IAC Integrator (Idle Air Control) 126 Steps
IAC Adaptation Slope (Idle Air Control) 148 Steps
IAC Block Learn (Idle Air Control) 124 Steps
Desired Idle Air 8 kg/h
Actual Value Idle Air 8 kg/h
Desired Engine Idle Speed 600 RPM
Injection Pulse 2.9 ms
Engine Load Signal 0.9 ms
TPS Load Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0%
Vehicle Speed Pulse Not Received 12V
Vehicle Speed 0 km/h
Intake Manifold Valve 1 Inactive 12V
Intake Manifold Valve 2 Inactive 12V
Torque Control Inactive
A/C Cutoff Relay (Air Conditioning) Inactive 12V
Diagnostic Request Inactive 5V
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[Harry Hill]
"Ljay or Debs. live data......
Which is better?....Hmmmmm? ::)
......Fight!" ;D
[/Harry Hill]
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Not sure if the sensor can be removed with the coolant bridge in place.access is prettyn tight for a 199mm open end spanner.
Anyone else know ? Might be best to get a set of dwty washers for the bridge before starting the job. :-\
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Thats 1 rather big spanner you need then Albs ;D ;D ;D.
From my last ventures down the back of the engine :o I seem to recall space is a tad tight :( ...my choice would be to remove the entire bridge and disconnect the 2 water pipes.
Place bridge in a vice or suitable "holding implement"and then undo the sensor away from the car.Clean up and replace ,naturally replacing the 4 doughty washers.Sure that would be the best solution. :y
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Not sure if the sensor can be removed with the coolant bridge in place.access is prettyn tight for a 199mm open end spanner.
Anyone else know ? Might be best to get a set of dwty washers for the bridge before starting the job. :-\
Even with a "modify" button, you still can`t get it right :P :P ;D
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[Harry Hill]
"Ljay or Debs. live data......
Which is better?....Hmmmmm? ::)
......Fight!" ;D
[/Harry Hill]
lol I changed it to yours only for clarity...heres the one with both
LJAY 3.0 DEBS 2.5
Identifier 1D 0D
Battery Voltage 14.3 V 13.8 V
Immobiliser Signal Received Received
Immobiliser Active Active
TPS Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0.45 V 0.51 V
Simulated Idle Position Active Active
Simulated Full Load Switch Inactive Inactive
Mass Air Flow Sensor 1.31 V 0.64 V
Mass Air Flow Sensor 40 kg/h 10 kg/h
Coolant Temperature 3.41 V 1.40 V
Coolant Temperature 23 °C 74 °C
Intake Air Temperature 3.82 V 3.08 V
Intake Air Temperature 13 °C 31 °C
Engine Type 6 Cylinder 6 Cylinder
Transmission Coding Manual Transmission Automatic Transmission
Park/Neutral Switch P - N 0V P - N 0V
A/C Information Switch (Air Conditioning) Active 12V Inactive 0V
A/C Compressor Switch (Air Conditioning) Inactive 0V Inactive 0V
Telltale (Check Light) Off 12V Off 12V
Fuel Pump Relay Active 0V Active 0V
Spark Angle before TDC (Top Dead Centre) -2 °CA 4 °CA
Ignition Coil Cyl. 1+4 (Cylinder) Spark Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 2+5 Load Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 3+6 (Cylinder) Load Load
Knock Signal Inactive Inactive
Knock Retard 0 °CA 0 °CA
Secondary Air Pump Relay Inactive 12V Inactive 12V
EGR Valve (Exhaust-Gas Recirculation) Inactive Inactive
EGR Position Feedback (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) 0.76 V 0.68 V
Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve 0% 0%
O2 Sensor 1 556 mV 702 mV
O2 Sensor 2 702 mV 537 mV
O2 Sensor Loop 1 Open Closed
O2 Sensor Loop 2 Open Closed
Air/Fuel Ratio 1 Rich Lean
Air/Fuel Ratio 2 Rich Rich
O2-Loop 1 Integrator 128 Steps 140 Steps
O2-Loop 2 Integrator 128 123
O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 255 Steps 198 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 21 Steps 0 Steps
O2-Loop 1 BLM Partial Load (Block Learn Map) 129 Steps 116 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Partial Load(Block Learn Map) 129 Steps 122 Steps
Hall Sensor Inactive Active
Engine Speed Pulse Active Active
Engine Speed 1.346 RPM 612 RPM
Idle Air Control 134 Steps 155 Steps
IAC Integrator (Idle Air Control) 120 Steps 126 Steps
IAC Adaptation Slope (Idle Air Control) 122 Steps 148 Steps
IAC Block Learn (Idle Air Control) 124 Steps 124 Steps
Desired Idle Air 34 kg/h 8 kg/h
Actual Value Idle Air 33 kg/h 8 kg/h
Desired Engine Idle Speed 1.300 RPM 600 RPM
Injection Pulse 4.7 ms 2.9 ms
Engine Load Signal 1.7 ms 0.9 ms
TPS Load Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0% 0%
Vehicle Speed Pulse Not Received 12V Not Received 12V
Vehicle Speed 0 km/h 0 km/h
Intake Manifold Valve 1 Inactive 12V Inactive 12V
Intake Manifold Valve 2 Inactive 12V Inactive 12V
Torque Control Inactive Inactive
A/C Cutoff Relay (Air Conditioning) Active 0V Inactive 12V
Diagnostic Request Inactive 5V Inactive 5V
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Not sure if the sensor can be removed with the coolant bridge in place.access is pretty tight for a 19mm open end spanner.
Anyone else know ? Might be best to get a set of dowty washers for the bridge before starting the job. :-\
:-[ ::)..............better ? :P
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Not sure if the sensor can be removed with the coolant bridge in place.access is pretty tight for a 19mm open end spanner.
Anyone else know ? Might be best to get a set of dowty washers for the bridge before starting the job. :-\
:-[ ::)..............better ? :P
Capital after a "full stop" ;D
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From my last ventures down the back of the engine :o I seem to recall space is a tad tight :( ...my choice would be to remove the entire bridge and disconnect the 2 water pipes.
Yikes! :o
.......confidence in my ability to tackle this, is ebbing-away rapidly! :-[
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I would use a bit of steel plate for blanking the egr valve off Debs.
Copper might be a little weak and get a bit hot on a long run :-\
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Debs.
I am sure you will be fine with it :y
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weve sprayed carb cleaner all round, no change in engine noise.....livedata snapshot follows....
Not actualy that great a test due to the various 'drafts' around the engine, would be interesting to see an idel vac reading
Its the base of the large breatehr that fails adn the brake servo pipe wear fault you know about.
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Right, no obvious issue with the CTS on those data results and MAF looks fine
Also, has anybody cleaned the throttle body and ensured that the throttle butterflies are closing fully?
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has anybody cleaned the throttle body and ensured that the throttle butterflies are closing fully?
Yes Sir.....Me, Sir! ;)
They were EXTREMELY dirty and took much carb-cleaner and toothbrushing to get through the sooty/sticky-black goo......which is why I thought that I should now blank the EGR feed too. :-\
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The goo comes from the breathers, the EGR vents onto the inlet side of the throttles and hence to a vac so wont have a major impact on the butterflies.
Key thing is, do the throttle valves fully close (as they should) without sticking (let them close to hard an they bind on the throttle barrel).
My concern is that we may have a scenario where the butterflies are not fully closing (possibly due to a past bodge by a former owner), this causes the idle valve to work at one end of its operating capability and hence massively increases its potential to 'stick'.
Hence a 'known good' valve is now operting at a different range on this engine setup.
As a tip, you can leave those idle valves full of carb cleaner and work the flap back and forth a load of times and you get stacks of rubbish and muck out of them still
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i've got one or two sets of throttle butterflies knocking about in my garage if anybody needs one?
..or should i horde them for myself when i get another omega :D ;D
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Update on the pup-mobile`s low/no idle issues:
My nephew and I managed to swap-out the ECU coolant sensor today (low-profile ratchet ring-spanner loosened/tightened the sensor)......we also replaced the upper-plenum and breather O-rings (just in case of a contributory vacuum issue).
The idle now seems steady and predictable and after several miles on a test drive in stop/go traffic, the engine didn`t stall once (having stopped at every junction during a previous journey a few days ago)
The real test will be a cold start and a 'stop-go' drive from a fully-cold engine (tomorrow morning)....if all`s well on that, then the pup-mobile is fixed!
Keep your finger`s crossed! :)
Many thanks to OOF members for your advice, help and support with these problems. :y....(You know whom you are!) ;)
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heres the live data...Before some parts replaced (Maf & ICV)
Identifier 0D
Battery Voltage 13.8 V
Immobiliser Signal Received
Immobiliser Active
TPS Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0.51 V
Simulated Idle Position Active
Simulated Full Load Switch Inactive
Mass Air Flow Sensor 0.64 V
Mass Air Flow Sensor 10 kg/h
Coolant Temperature 1.40 V
Coolant Temperature 74 °C
Intake Air Temperature 3.08 V
Intake Air Temperature 31 °C
Engine Type 6 Cylinder
Transmission Coding Automatic Transmission
Park/Neutral Switch P - N 0V
A/C Information Switch (Air Conditioning) Inactive 0V
A/C Compressor Switch (Air Conditioning) Inactive 0V
Telltale (Check Light) Off 12V
Fuel Pump Relay Active 0V
Spark Angle before TDC (Top Dead Centre) 4 °CA
Ignition Coil Cyl. 1+4 (Cylinder) Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 2+5 Load
Ignition Coil Cyl. 3+6 (Cylinder) Load
Knock Signal Inactive
Knock Retard 0 °CA
Secondary Air Pump Relay Inactive 12V
EGR Valve (Exhaust-Gas Recirculation) Inactive
EGR Position Feedback (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) 0.68 V
Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve 0%
O2 Sensor 1 702 mV
O2 Sensor 2 537 mV
O2 Sensor Loop 1 Closed
O2 Sensor Loop 2 Closed
Air/Fuel Ratio 1 Lean
Air/Fuel Ratio 2 Rich
O2-Loop 1 Integrator 140 Steps
O2-Loop 2 Integrator 123
O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 198 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 0 Steps
O2-Loop 1 BLM Partial Load (Block Learn Map) 116 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Partial Load(Block Learn Map) 122 Steps
Hall Sensor Active
Engine Speed Pulse Active
Engine Speed 612 RPM
Idle Air Control 155 Steps
IAC Integrator (Idle Air Control) 126 Steps
IAC Adaptation Slope (Idle Air Control) 148 Steps
IAC Block Learn (Idle Air Control) 124 Steps
Desired Idle Air 8 kg/h
Actual Value Idle Air 8 kg/h
Desired Engine Idle Speed 600 RPM
Injection Pulse 2.9 ms
Engine Load Signal 0.9 ms
TPS Load Signal (Throttle Position Sensor) 0%
Vehicle Speed Pulse Not Received 12V
Vehicle Speed 0 km/h
Intake Manifold Valve 1 Inactive 12V
Intake Manifold Valve 2 Inactive 12V
Torque Control Inactive
A/C Cutoff Relay (Air Conditioning) Inactive 12V
Diagnostic Request Inactive 5V
Assuming your device isn't lying (Ljays showing similar - so immediately suspicious of reader), you need to ask why drivers back is naturally lean and passenger bank is naturally too rich (and seeing as hit the end stop, probably still is).
I am suspicious of the reader though
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What happens if you reset trims? In my experience, Motronnic 2.8.x doesn't recover itself if a trim hits the end stop.
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Ill reset em at the meet next week :y
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forgot to say well done on the fix, and hopefully sorted now :y
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Ill reset em at the meet next week :y
8) Thankyou! :y
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O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 198 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 0 Steps
What happens if you reset trims? In my experience, Motronnic 2.8.x doesn't recover itself if a trim hits the end stop.
Ok....from a cold start this a.m: at the first roundabout, the RPM started to 'flick' (rapidly, well above, then back down to idle) and the engine surged noticeably, but adding any amount of accelerator and the surging went away and 'driveability' seemed 100% .....mercifully, there`s been no actual stalling approaching/during idle today.
When the engine became fully warm (a couple of miles into the journey), the 'bouncing' idling RPM went away!?!? ???
Please pardon my complete lack of understanding of 'fuel trim'; is the unbalanced nature of the live-data figures (highlighted) likely to cause idle surging (when cold)? :-\
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O2-Loop 1 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 198 Steps
O2-Loop 2 BLM Idle (Block Learn Map) 0 Steps
What happens if you reset trims? In my experience, Motronnic 2.8.x doesn't recover itself if a trim hits the end stop.
Ok....from a cold start this a.m: at the first roundabout, the RPM started to 'flick' (rapidly, well above, then back down to idle) and the engine surged noticeably, but adding any amount of accelerator and the surging went away and 'driveability' seemed 100% .....mercifully, there`s been no actual stalling approaching/during idle today.
When the engine became fully warm (a couple of miles into the journey), the 'bouncing' idling RPM went away!?!? ???
Please pardon my complete lack of understanding of 'fuel trim'; is the unbalanced nature of the live-data figures (highlighted) likely to cause idle surging (when cold)? :-\
Trim is the amount of variation from 'normal' that the ECU applies based on feedback from precat lamdas. Being a twin bank engine, 2 seperate trim settings.
On the Motronic, trim settings are 0 to 255, with 'normal' being 127.
If a trim is higher than 127, its detected that bank is lean, and is richening up. Lower, its rich, so leaning off.
The Motronic 2.8.x has a pair of trim settings per bank, one of these is purely for idle, and its these that are screwy on yours.
Hope that helps with your fault finding. Probably first thing is to reset them, and watch how they go. Up to 15 either side of normal is OKish, if no symptoms.
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Debs, have you a laptop with a 'real' serial port?
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Debs, have you a laptop with a 'real' serial port?
Sadly not.......it`s just VGA and USB. :-[
'Idle' wondering: would a long period of battery disconnection, reset the trims?.......Don`t worry if not, I can easily wait `till the meet for your 'OOFicial' analysis! ;)
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Some bits reset, not sure if its those....still only a few days off.
Ill see if I can get you a way of keeping an eye on them :y
May have an old device I can make work.....never been easy without serial though.
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Have the throttle butterflies been checked and the idle valve been given a real good soak and clean yet?
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Have the throttle butterflies been checked and the idle valve been given a real good soak and clean yet?
:y Yes, thoroughly soaked the idle valve..... and used a can of carb-cleaner (w/tooth-brush) to clean the butterflies/throttle-body; they were secure on the cross shaft, closed in synchrony and tightly held carb-cleaning fluid in the vestibule fluid when closed.
.....on a cold/cool engine; when the idle is 'flicking' (sorry, can`t think of another way of describing it; other than by what the tacho-needle is registering): RPM is first, well-above, then back down to the expected idle {for that engine temperature}, I`m surprised at how fast the engine revs are changing at that time, in fact, I`d struggle to replicate such rapidity of an RPM change using the pedal. :-\
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'flicking'
Hunting?
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'flicking'
Hunting?
:-\ I`d have thought that hunting would be a more leisurely change of RPM around a fixed point....this is a very rapid variation. ;)
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When you soaked the idle valve, did you also use a screwdriver (carefuly) to actuate the butterfly plenty of times?
A small artists paint brush is also very good for tickling the dirty bits with. ;D
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When you soaked the idle valve, did you also use a screwdriver (carefuly) to actuate the butterfly plenty of times?
A small artists paint brush is also very good for tickling the dirty bits with. ;D
:o Ooooh, matron! ;D