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[Webby the Bear]

we're all bad guys and being brutally honest i dont think anyone really cares.

anyone ever bought a GAP t-shirt or jumper?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

remember that Mitchell and Webb sketch where a nazi ss officer slowly realises that they're the bad guys?

Are we the bad guys now? we support some awful regimes across the world, the latest "friend" being Libya - who's crackdown on protests is sickening, hopefully we wont try and worm out of condeming Gaddaffi just because he's got oil will we? or is that the sum total of our cares in the 21st century? dealing with tyrants in the hope of securing the last few drops of oil or because we're scared of letting other people have democracy? jesus christ - we suck 

Throughout English / British history there have been many times BJ when, for reasons of political expediency and diplomacy, we have been "the bad guys".   When it suited us we have drawn up alliances with all kinds of dubious leaders and their nations when it suited our leaders of the time. 

Richard I (The Lionheart) made an alliance with the French to launch the First Crusade (1191), although the French had been England's enemy, and was again later for centuries to come.  Fast forward through many "alliances of convenience" and we found the Germans were our Allies against the French in 1815, and rescued the Wellington's army from certain defeat at Waterloo.  Yet we had an alliance with France by 1914 to assist them if under attack, and entered a ruiness war with Germany when they did attack France!  We had an alliance with the USSR, and worse of all Stalin, to assist them in their war against Nazi Germany, who had originally a non-aggression treaty with Hitler and Germany, a most strange collection of bedfellows that proves not only has Britain entered into doubtful alliances!!  Do not forget we had also signed an agreement with Hitler of Nazi Germany in 1938 in the interests of peace, yet giving the tyrant a free hand in Czechoslovakia!

We were the bad guys wwhen dealing with the Palenstine situation in 1947, and the British has so often protected diplomatically Israel.  Britain was definately the bad guy when starting the Suez conflict in 1956.  We also did nothing when our "best friend" was carpet bombing Vietnam in the 1960s.

So BJ, yes we have often been the "bad guy", and I suspect that we will continue to be from time to time.

I will never forget the quote of Churchill whilst at, Chequers, in June 1944 asking "Are we the beasts? Have we taken this too far?" (Gilbert, M. Churchill A Life p.517 (1993)) when he had watched a film about the effects of the intense Anglo-American bombing raid on the industrial city of Wuppertal, with 3,000+ German civillians killed.  This to me proves that Britain does question its own actions as a leading democracy does, and highlights that overall we are the good guys!

[Mysteryman]

The Scots are the worse though, they let Megrahi go.

Be under no misapprehension. That whole affair was managed from westminster on an international level with responsibility being laid conveniently at the door
of the scots and their compassionate legal system loophole.

I think you're probably mistaking my post for something posted seriously there Broocie. As with most of the affairs of the world these days, I couldn't give a flying you-know-what.

[Webby the Bear]

i agree that theres no point giving a flying fig. the ironic thing is that people say 'we're destrying the world''.

well i think the world will always be here and its ourselves we'll destroy.


and relax.

[cem_devecioglu]

remember that Mitchell and Webb sketch where a nazi ss officer slowly realises that they're the bad guys?

Are we the bad guys now? we support some awful regimes across the world, the latest "friend" being Libya - who's crackdown on protests is sickening, hopefully we wont try and worm out of condeming Gaddaffi just because he's got oil will we? or is that the sum total of our cares in the 21st century? dealing with tyrants in the hope of securing the last few drops of oil or because we're scared of letting other people have democracy? jesus christ - we suck 

Throughout English / British history there have been many times BJ when, for reasons of political expediency and diplomacy, we have been "the bad guys".   When it suited us we have drawn up alliances with all kinds of dubious leaders and their nations when it suited our leaders of the time. 

Richard I (The Lionheart) made an alliance with the French to launch the First Crusade (1191), although the French had been England's enemy, and was again later for centuries to come.  Fast forward through many "alliances of convenience" and we found the Germans were our Allies against the French in 1815, and rescued the Wellington's army from certain defeat at Waterloo.  Yet we had an alliance with France by 1914 to assist them if under attack, and entered a ruiness war with Germany when they did attack France!  We had an alliance with the USSR, and worse of all Stalin, to assist them in their war against Nazi Germany, who had originally a non-aggression treaty with Hitler and Germany, a most strange collection of bedfellows that proves not only has Britain entered into doubtful alliances!!  Do not forget we had also signed an agreement with Hitler of Nazi Germany in 1938 in the interests of peace, yet giving the tyrant a free hand in Czechoslovakia!

We were the bad guys wwhen dealing with the Palenstine situation in 1947, and the British has so often protected diplomatically Israel.  Britain was definately the bad guy when starting the Suez conflict in 1956.  We also did nothing when our "best friend" was carpet bombing Vietnam in the 1960s.

So BJ, yes we have often been the "bad guy", and I suspect that we will continue to be from time to time.

I will never forget the quote of Churchill whilst at, Chequers, in June 1944 asking "Are we the beasts? Have we taken this too far?" (Gilbert, M. Churchill A Life p.517 (1993)) when he had watched a film about the effects of the intense Anglo-American bombing raid on the industrial city of Wuppertal, with 3,000+ German civillians killed.  This to me proves that Britain does question its own actions as a leading democracy does, and highlights that overall we are the good guys!

phew.. impressive brief Lizzie.. no one could summarize this in a paragraph imo..

[albitz]

I must agree though, that Bliars shameless cosying up to Gaddafi was utterly disgraceful. He armed the IRA, his embassy staff shot dead a British policewoman in the centre of our capital city, and one of his people was convicted of the biggest mass murder in our history.
The process of releasing the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing started that day when Bliar met Gaddaffi.I agree up to a point with H21, but I dont believe for one minute that the Scottish politicians involved were any less guilty than their disgraceful Westminster counterparts.
Im quite sure that they were all up to their necks in it, and I think the recent revelations that politicians in westminster were actually advising the Libyans on the best way to proceed under Scottish law, to ensure his release should have ensured that those involved were put before the courts. Justice doesnt apply to people like that though, unfortunately.

I do not see us disagreeing in the slightest to be truthfull.  I did not say or imply for an instant that the Scottish polititians are blame free.

Be under no misapprehension. That whole affair was managed from westminster on an international level with responsibility being laid conveniently at the door of the scots and their compassionate legal system loophole.

I take the view, as already said, that the whole scenario was engineered at Westminster.  That agreements and removal of sanctions were agreed on the understanding that Scots law would be used to its utmost to free Megrahi (whom I believe is relatively innocent, but thats for another day) and that the Scottish polititians must accept responsibility for their rule of law, thus 'absolving' westminster in the dabblings.

The recent revelations of the 'advice' given by HMG (note, not Scotland...) to Libya shows the extent of the two faced shennanigans that our elected representatives get involved in.

Anyone for a tin of worms?

I would also fortell that it will get substantially dirtier and more smeered as the Middle East crisis further expands and the assorted factions use past duplicity to give themselves a very thin veneer of respectability.     

Not so much a tin of worms but a bucket Bruce - a slop bucket.
Beneath contempt doesnt even begin to cover it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354158/Scottish-Ministers-offered-free-Lockerbie-bomber-secret-deal-end-slop-bucket-payments-prisoners.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356494/Jack-Straw-accuses-Alex-Salmond-selective-amnesia-Lockerbie-bomber-release.html