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Author Topic: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today  (Read 4213 times)

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Rods2

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Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« on: 31 July 2012, 21:20:56 »

I wonder what his and his wife's great intellect and wisdom would have made of the current global depression and the Eurozone?

A couple of links: The first he provides the introduction to a very good and inspiring essy written in 1958 by Leonard Read, called "I pencil". I sure Nickbat and Albs will 'get' the essay, but it might give Opti and Cem a dose of the heebie jeebies.  ;) :P ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl0.html#Introduction, by Milton Friedman

The second is a list of quotations, which shows he also had a great sense of humour.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_friedman.html
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #1 on: 31 July 2012, 21:46:46 »

 ::)  will delay the readings until tomorrow.. my right eye start flickering :( 
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Nickbat

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #2 on: 31 July 2012, 22:58:19 »

I wonder what his and his wife's great intellect and wisdom would have made of the current global depression and the Eurozone?

A couple of links: The first he provides the introduction to a very good and inspiring essy written in 1958 by Leonard Read, called "I pencil". I sure Nickbat and Albs will 'get' the essay, but it might give Opti and Cem a dose of the heebie jeebies.  ;) :P ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl0.html#Introduction, by Milton Friedman

The second is a list of quotations, which shows he also had a great sense of humour.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_friedman.html

"...the basic idea that human freedom required private property, free competition, and severely limited government"

Amen to that!  :y
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #3 on: 31 July 2012, 23:20:08 »

I wonder what his and his wife's great intellect and wisdom would have made of the current global depression and the Eurozone?

A couple of links: The first he provides the introduction to a very good and inspiring essy written in 1958 by Leonard Read, called "I pencil". I sure Nickbat and Albs will 'get' the essay, but it might give Opti and Cem a dose of the heebie jeebies.  ;) :P ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl0.html#Introduction, by Milton Friedman

The second is a list of quotations, which shows he also had a great sense of humour.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_friedman.html

"...the basic idea that human freedom required private property, free competition, and severely limited government"

Amen to that!  :y

The Pikey translation for you Nick....  :)

"...the basic idea that human freedom required someone else's private property, free (bare knuckle) competition, and severely limited government (ie on a bank holiday so we can get the diggers in.."  :-*
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Nickbat

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #4 on: 31 July 2012, 23:34:40 »

Lucky I'm not a Pikey, then, Tigger!  ;) ;D
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albitz

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #5 on: 01 August 2012, 00:09:57 »

Excellent read Rod.I will keep that article in my favs.to use as a method of explanation to "simplistic thinkers". :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #6 on: 01 August 2012, 10:59:32 »

"None of the thousands of persons involved in producing the pencil performed his task because he wanted a pencil. Some among them never saw a pencil and would not know what it is for. Each saw his work as a way to get the goods and services he wanted—goods and services we produced in order to get the pencil we wanted. Every time we go to the store and buy a pencil, we are exchanging a little bit of our services for the infinitesimal amount of services that each of the thousands contributed toward producing the pencil."

seems like he worked his lesson on Marx very good ::)
 
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself"

good time for a question.. does anyone now think the market is free ? just think how much you pay for fuel.. cartels decide , not the even the govts and not the ordinary citizen..
 
and must admit I have never seen such an abused word like "freedom" just to start wars to finance western economies
 
 
 
"History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom. Clearly it is not a sufficient condition."
 
wrong .. capitalism means banking/money collected in few private hands (as history prooved).. which will never let its force out of hand..  expecting a different behaviour is against the nature of power .. :D
 

"I'm in favor of legalizing drugs. According to my values system, if people want to kill themselves,
they have every right to do so. Most of the harm that comes from drugs is because they are illegal
"

Ugh.. ???  someone must give him some lessons about bio-chemistry and addiction of human brain nerve system.. :(
thats a shameful ignorant idea!

 
"Inflation is taxation without legislation. "

yep.. thats correct!

"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect
the consumer from the government
"

yep.. thats correct too.. he is surprising me! ;D :D

"Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and
make the combination worthless"

yep.. because the brain controlling the writing hands are worthless :P
 
here is some critics about him
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/nov/16/post650
 
 
ps: Sorry Albitz :-[ 
« Last Edit: 01 August 2012, 11:06:46 by cem »
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Rods2

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #7 on: 01 August 2012, 19:23:31 »

Quote
seems like he worked his lesson on Marx very good 

Except with Marx all of the co-operatives are owned by the state with them imposing conditions, payments and if such a co-operative can exist. So you have NO economic freedom and very little personal freedom.

No mother-in-law did not enjoy working in a Russian collective for ZERO pay (or 100% taxation) take your pick the result is the same. So why have a job you may ask? Their productivity scheme was if you don't have a job and clock in and out everyday then you go to jail, which usually meant a Gulag in Siberia. There was no incentive to work hard, so you did as little as possible and stole anything you could get away with as a form of payment.

This is why socialism does not work as it is a top down authority which imposes its will on society. So the people at the top have to be all seeing and knowing in what people want and need and invent and this is of course impossible, so you get very inefficient allocation of capital and resources, which is why all purely socialist countries end up getting poorer and poorer. Think North Korea and Cuba as current examples.  >:( >:( >:(

Where as capitalism is bottom up approach where an individual can come up with an idea, allocate capital and resources and sell the end result. But to be sucessful, they need to make people aware of the product or service, through advertising and marketing and it has to be an attractive product or service at the right time, place, price and quality to sell. This leads to individuals or small groups allocating capital and resources which is much more efficient.  It is also why communist countries like China have introduced capitalism as it works better.  :y :y :y

Quote
good time for a question.. does anyone now think the market is free ?

Yes and no, the freedom to create your own business is there, but many corporations have bought competition, where monopoly market share is set too high at 25%. Four companies does not provide enough competition. If we had in the UK the big 10 banks instead of the big 4, then they would not be too big to fail. Saving banks from bankruptcy is a perversion of capitalism as badly run business should be bought at a low price and management kicked out or should fail and if bought senior management kicked out again. No business should be able to go over 10% market share by buying other companies, but this have to be agreed as part of an international trade agreement. Most near monopolies ultimately fail as they become complacent and badly managed. This is currently happening to Microsoft, Nokia and RIM all of whom may not survive or only as a minor player and will also probably happen to Apple in the long term. When any business makes more than 10% profits, this then makes it an attractive proposition for rivals to invest in producing competitive products. Apple is trying to keep their monopoly and market share through patent wars.

International cartels like oil, the best way to defeat them is to development independent resources or alternative technologies which the US is currently working hard on at the moment with shale oil and gas resources, countries are becoming more energy efficient and developing alternatives, like bio-fuels.

Quote
wrong .. capitalism means banking/money collected in few private hands (as history prooved).. which will never let its force out of hand..  expecting a different behaviour is against the nature of power ..

In the UK 60% of employment and over 50% of GDP is through SMES. These are businesses that range from self-employed to businesses with up to 50 employees. 80% of SMES stop trading or go bust withing 5 years, so it is not an easy route, which with ever increasing EU and UK regulation (by socialists) and high taxation (by socialists) is killing small enterprise, which is a major reason why the wealth gap between top 1% and the other 99% in the UK and Europe is getting bigger. The 99% through regulation and taxation are being starved of capital to start new businesses and due to regulation the start up costs are forever increasing, with high taxation meaning the risks v rewards make it just not worth it. So they cannot get towards being one of the 1%. This is why my next business where I need to employ people again will not be in the UK or EU.

EU and national socialism is killing Western European enterprise, and only allowing crony corporate capitalism to survive. Many EU directives are aimed at stopping through regulation small business from surviving, so their favoured corporations, with their lobbing treats survive. This is not a failure of capitalism but of democracy. In most Presidential / Government democracies, the elected Government define and pass laws that are rubber stamped by the president. In the EU the UNELECTED president and council of ministers define and implement laws that are rubber stamped by the EU parliament. This is why is is known as the EUSSR as there is no real democracy and much corruption, just like the old USSR. I hope for your and Turkey's sake that you never join EU.

A friend of mine is having a nightmare time under the new EU commercial vehicle directive and laws, where he is a lorry owner / driver with his own operators licence, VOSA who inspected his vehicle found, a rear stop lamp bulb had blown and the brake air-pressure gauge was faulty, although brakes were perfect. He has now had much paperwork to complete and interviews to keep his operators licence and now he is on VOSA's radar he is having his lorry randomly inspected by them on average once every two weeks, which means he losses a days work. I can't see Eddie Stobart having the same problems.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #8 on: 01 August 2012, 19:32:46 »

naswers and comments tomorrow :y
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #9 on: 02 August 2012, 09:59:10 »

Bit of an irony that Friedman believed in small government and laissez-faire economics, yet came up with the system that makes it easier for Governments to collect income tax. ie PAYE or The Withholding Tax as it's known in the US.   ::)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #10 on: 02 August 2012, 13:07:18 »

Quote
seems like he worked his lesson on Marx very good 

Except with Marx all of the co-operatives are owned by the state with them imposing conditions, payments and if such a co-operative can exist. So you have NO economic freedom and very little personal freedom.

No mother-in-law did not enjoy working in a Russian collective for ZERO pay (or 100% taxation) take your pick the result is the same. So why have a job you may ask? Their productivity scheme was if you don't have a job and clock in and out everyday then you go to jail, which usually meant a Gulag in Siberia. There was no incentive to work hard, so you did as little as possible and stole anything you could get away with as a form of payment.

This is why socialism does not work as it is a top down authority which imposes its will on society. So the people at the top have to be all seeing and knowing in what people want and need and invent and this is of course impossible, so you get very inefficient allocation of capital and resources, which is why all purely socialist countries end up getting poorer and poorer. Think North Korea and Cuba as current examples.  >:( >:( >:(

Where as capitalism is bottom up approach where an individual can come up with an idea, allocate capital and resources and sell the end result. But to be sucessful, they need to make people aware of the product or service, through advertising and marketing and it has to be an attractive product or service at the right time, place, price and quality to sell. This leads to individuals or small groups allocating capital and resources which is much more efficient.  It is also why communist countries like China have introduced capitalism as it works better.  :y :y :y

[

Honestly these smell like they are all collected from a cold war propoganda speech..  shallow and lacking the most important dimensions ; time(events) and conditions ..
and must add also I grow up hearing those horror stories which in one day I discovered that these are far from reality let alone being a tangent..
I think the problem with western or western influenced communities is that their perception is warped through education by all means which are politically effected and designed..
even today when you use search engines and check for a specific political/historical subject if you dont know different languages you may hardly reach the complete picture..
 
I think now its time to remind some scientific precautions: when you examine a specific event and a fact, you have to examine all previous-post events and surrounding facts/conditions to determine/evaluate and conclude for the whole picture.. or else your results will be far from objectivity and distorted ..
I do believe also its essential to point that a scientific idea dont belong to any specific political view.. its duty is to find and extract realities regardless of personal interests..
 
Now if we look in the history, Marxs economic and social theories are prooven to be correct and no later theories were able to proove the reverse.. reason is simple: he is a strong eyed clever observer and living in complete poverty.. all his observation and conclusions are objective and have no fear of supporting the rich-power class..
as he pointed out capitalism will have always repeating periodical crisis -as he have seen nowadays- the net sum (obviously money flows in both upwards and downwards direction) of flow of accumulated money is always (bigger) in upwards direction in class pyramide..
which will lead to depleted or no reserve of money in lower classes so re-organization or artifical pumping of money becomes a must.. ( I can not go in the details of das capital here ) these theories/obervations are not dependant on any specific country or a group or region.. Now Russia becomes our subject as you focus specially on it..
Interestingly, although socialist theories are more easily applicable on rich western countries -leading classes were so rich and globally powerful that they never permit it to happen-although parties with imitating names and sayings do exist that are both internally and externally far from being socialist-  , real experiments  have to be done with poor nations which have no other alternative..
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #11 on: 02 August 2012, 13:18:44 »

Continued from above..
 
Looking at our specified example, Russia during Czar era mostly shown to be having high growth rates in production is caused by immense population growth .. But actually whole country was starving despite it was an agricultural country lacking heavy industry.. Rich classes living in luxury and blind to realities of lower classes.. So cant stop the 1917 revolution although west give reaction immediately and rushed all its economic and military power to help the remains Czar/Tzar forces..
So the civil war in Russia take 5 years of time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War damaging the remains of Russia after the first world war..During that period Russian production declined dramatically (if there was left any)

"Basically Russia came into the 20th century as an extremely oppressed country that was ruled by the Czars(Tzar). Russia was a feudal dictatorship. The people of Russia were horribly oppressed, poor, starving, cold, and without any real direction or hope.  Essentially, Russia had never undergone the liberal revolutions that took place in Europe (starting with the French Revolution), which had established liberal democracy and capitalism there.  Russia remained as one of the last vestiges of Medieval European society.
Through acts of “terrorism” and rebellion a small group of revolutionaries overthrew the Czars. Then Russia went into a stage of anarchy and turmoil, out of which the Bolshevik Party of Lenin emerged as the dominant political force.
Lenin and many of the Bolsheviks were not in Russia at the time of the Revolution. Some of them were from Russia originally but had left, while some were not from Russia at all.  They were all Marxists and socialist revolutionaries that had been living in Europe studying science, economics, sociology, history, etc.  from a Marxist perspective.  The Bolsheviks did not cause the overthrow of the Russian government; they came in after the overthrow with the plan of putting Marxist revolutionary theory to practice.  Their plan from the beginning was to develop Russia in such a way as to spread social revolution throughout Europe and eventually the world.  The biggest political opponents of the Bolsheviks in Russia, aside from the Czars, were the Mensheviks and Social Democrats, both Marxist groups who also supported Socialism, but were less militant.  What is important to understand about the Russian Revolution is that some of the biggest opponents to the Bolsheviks were other Communists.  The "brand" of Communism that was promoted by the Bolsheviks was by no means representative of all Communist ideology.   Bolshevik ideology was the least tolerant and most revolutionary form of Marxist ideology. "
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #12 on: 02 August 2012, 13:22:53 »

continued from above..
 
"In addition to launching an attack on private property they did something else that upset countries around the world, and that was to make public all of the secret information that was contained in the Russian government files. They exposed all of the secret treaties that the Russian Czars had made with various countries as well as other information that the Russian government had acquired through its own intelligence operations. They did this because they felt that humanity should progress through honesty and they wanted to expose the corruption of other capitalists countries as well as of the old Russian regime.
These actions only added to the international opposition to the situation in Russia.  After World War I was over 21 countries from all over the world, including America, began supporting a counter-revolution in Russia in an attempt to stop the Bolshevik revolution. At this time Russia entered a stage of Civil War between the Reds and the Whites. "
"In 1918 American President Woodrow Wilson sent 12,000 American troops to Russia to fight on the side of the Czars against the Red Army.  Interestingly, the American forces in Russia suffered more attacks and problems from the White Army than from the Red Army.  The American commanders in the field reported that the Czarist reign of terror was far more horrific and disturbing that the actions of the Reds.  The American forces also discovered that the vast majority of Russians sympathized with the Bolsheviks and supported the revolution.  In the end, the American troops were brought home without any fanfare, and the ordeal was considered one of the most ill-conceived interventions in American history up to that time.  Major General Graves, who lead the expedition, was accused of being a "Red sympathizer" and was generally disgraced after the event.  "

from
http://rationalrevolution.net/war/russian_revolution.htm


 
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #13 on: 02 August 2012, 13:26:01 »

continued from above..
 
After the the civil war era, Lenin died at 1924.. And Stalin got the power and cleared his opponents one by one..
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_Josef_Stalin_gain_power
all these are correct.. but there is another side of the medalion.. Russia still was in poverty , its citizens starving and there were no heavy industry with the oncoming war winds over the russia..So he took serious precautions to feed the country and develop industry.. And I'm sure whoever in that period was in power will take similiar precautions without doubt because simply there wont be any talk of freedom where cities are starving..
 
In 1928 Stalin had said:
"Agriculture is developing slowly, comrades. This is because we have about 25 million individually owned farms. They are the most primitive and undeveloped form of economy We must do our utmost to develop large farms and to convert them into grain factories for the country organised on a modem scientific basis."
Stalin’s description of the state of Russia’s farming was very accurate. There was barely any mechanisation, the use of scientific measures was minimal and peasant farmers produced usually for themselves and the local area. This was not good enough for Stalin.
To change all this and update Russia’s agriculture, Stalin introduced collectivisation. This meant that small farms would be gathered together to form one large massive one. These bigger farms would be called collectives. As they were large, there was every reason to use machinery on them. The more food that could be grown the better as the cities and factories could suitably be fed. Hungry factory workers would not be in a fit enough state to work effectively. If this happened the Five Year Plans would not succeed.
If this happened then Russia would not advance.
The key to collectives would be the use of science and machinery. Tractors stations were created to hire out tractors, combine harvesters etc. Collectives were up and running by 1930 when over 50% of all farms had been grouped together.
 
Lenin had given the peasants their land in 1918. By 1924, even the poorest peasant owned land. There were those who had worked hard and done well. These were richer peasants and were called kulaks. This group in particular was very much against collectivisation. They felt that their hard work was being taken advantage of. Stalin tried to turn to poorer peasants against the kulaks. In 1928, he said at a speech:
"Look at the kulaks farms : their barns and sheds are crammed with grain. And yet they are holding onto this grain because they are demanding three times the price offered by the government."
However, many peasants, ‘rich’ or poor, were against collectivisation. The land that Lenin had given them was now being taken away by Stalin. Villages that refused to join a collective had soldiers sent to them and the villagers were usually shoot as "enemies of the revolution" or "enemies of the people". The land, now freed from ownership, was handed to the nearest collective farm.

from
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/collectivisation.htm
and for a detailed reading
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Milton Friedman, 100th Anniversay Today
« Reply #14 on: 02 August 2012, 13:29:52 »

continued from above...
 
so we can say that picking random pictures from a communities life and criticisng them with an enemy point of view wont bring us the complete picture about truth..
 
Briefly Soviet production after second world war rocketed and their production rate increases were much higher than the western countries..
Their avg growth rate in industry was %10..and finally their system bring a poor agriculture nation to a point where they become the second powerful nation at early 1950 years.. if at this point you are not convinced that socialism does not work , just look at their technology and power today..
 
I can go for more details to enlighten the debate subject.. But my limited English and no knowldge on Russian language makes the subject hard to search and time consuming.. (although on-line language translators help its another problem)
so I'll cut here..  :y
 
 
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