Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[cleggy]

I was wondering if there are any electricians who can explain and provide a solution to a problem I have.

Having just completed a new chicken coop half way up the garden, I wanted to install a power point to cater for an electric fence, sort of a des res for chooks.
My shed at the top of the garden has power facilitating light, security light and a couple of power sockets supplied from an armoured 3 phase cable using one phase for  Live, Neutral and Earth taking feed from my garage 75 yards away, which in turn is supplied via the outhouse and outdoor lights. This outdoor circuit works fine.

I have installed a double power point in the coop taking the feed by cutting the armoured cable and using a waterproof junction box, spurred a twin and earth to it in a 'T' fashion. Now the problem, the socket doesn't work even thought it is getting power, the rest of the circuit does including the shed. My initial thought was a fault on the faceplate so I swapped it with one that works with the same outcome. I decided to re jig the circuit by taking the supply from the 3 phase into the socket and out again back to 3 phase to continue onto the shed in series, SAME RESULT
The shed is working as normal but the socket in the coop doesn't and it must be getting a supply for the lights and sockets in the shed to function.

Can anyone explain why??? A neighbour, a sparks on lifts is of the same mind as me IT SHOULD WORK, and can't understand why it doesn't, his metre readings show  everything is getting the correct supply,

Sorry for the long post but it's "Doin' me 'ed in"

[kev2b4]

neutral connection! need both for power

had opposite when moved in to current place -- some numpty had live and neutral swapped on one of sockets in kitchen--
( then checked everyother socket-luckily just one, but electric shower (was) on cooker 60A circuit !) -- since then proper fusebox  etc.)

[cleggy]

Surely if the live and neutral were swapped into the socket in the coop then nothing would work in the shed.

[the alarming man]

well no as you are running A.C...if it were D.C then yes...........

[robmac]

faulty socket in chicken coop?

[Kevin Wood]

Firstly I would say that running twin and earth outside is not acceptable. The whole installation should be in armoured cable, properly terminated at each outside connection, IMHO.

You might also need to take extra care with the earthing arrangements at the outside locations, depending on the earthing arrangements used at the main supply to the property. You don't want that electric fence to be too effective in the event of a fault!

How many sockets do you already have on that outside spur, what current is it rated at, and how is it supplied from the property? Is it RCD protected? It sounds like a single spur is providing for the outhouse, a couple of sockets in the garage, a couple in the shed, a couple in the chicken coop, some security lighting too.. plenty of loads have been tacked on to that circuit already and there is mention of it being fed from a lighting circuit. Alarm bells are ringing at this stage.

As to why you have no output at the additional socket, though, it must be down to a simple wiring error. Either incorrect connections (if 3 phase cable is used for a single phase supply the colour codes will be wrong so be very careful that you have identified live, neutral and earth correctly) or a connection not making contact, possibly inside the socket itself. You can often get readings that look OK on a multimeter with a high impedance input, despite one of the connections actually floating.

I would, however, urge you to make sure that the whole installation is sound, noting the (not necessarily exhaustive list of) points above and employing an electrician to do so if necessary. I'm not an electrician, BTW.

[cleggy]

Cheers Kevin your points are worthy of note.

The outside circuit is a seperate circuit on the fuse box with its own contact breaker with three sockets ( one in the out house and two in the shed) and three lights ( one in each of the out house, garage and shed) and a security light none of which is in constant use so the loading is minimal, in fact I can't remember the last time I used any of the sockets. I have weather proof sockets attached to the outside of the house for power tools etc. I must admit that I don't use RCD's which I should in the case of hedge cutters etc.
The twin and earth outside from the armoured cable to the coop is done using an outdoor junction box and running the cable through a plastic conduit underground. The earthing arrangements conform to standards and was done by an electrician, as indeed was the complete arrangement, when the house was rewired about 5 years ago, except for the bit I want to do.

The reason for the socket in the coop not working is baffling when everything else does. If it were a  contact problem surely the rest of the circuit from that point on would fail.

I have an electrician coming round later this week, but he seems as baffled as I am.   

[markrnorton]

I wouldn't run plastic conduit in the ground, especially with twin and earth, thats asking for trouble. Anything external should ALWAYS have an RCD on the circuit.

Be safe.

[cleggy]

I wouldn't run plastic conduit in the ground, especially with twin and earth, thats asking for trouble. Anything external should ALWAYS have an RCD on the circuit.

Be safe.

Yes you are right for the sake a metre I will get some armoured cable. That is when the bloody socket is working, I might just remove it, reconnect the armoured three phase to the shed, and use a leisure battery for the electric fence.  

[markrnorton]

you know it makes sense !!

i went full on when doing my garage.

separate circuit, fused RCD, armoured cable in metal conduit buried 18" down, then covered in 3" of concrete.

[Kevin Wood]

The reason for the socket in the coop not working is baffling when everything else does. If it were a  contact problem surely the rest of the circuit from that point on would fail.

Not necessarily. Where you have broken into the armoured cable you clearly still have a connection onwards to the original outlets in the shed, so the fault is somewhere between that point and the new socket. A favourite is that the clamping screw in a terminal is gripping the end of the insulation instead of the bare copper conductor. It might well be that you have a faulty socket assembly on the end of it, as said.

[cleggy]

I will check the connections tomorrow Kevin.
What does make sense is that the terminal is not gripping the wire but the insulation or not gripping it at all. I twisted the two live, two neutral and two earths together before putting them into the terminals and tightening. This would explain why the circuit continues onto the shed but the socket in the coop doesn't work.

CHEERS

[Lioned]

If you have a 3 phase cable then i assume you've got 3 x live and 1 x neutral and 1 x earth conductor.Are they the old colours ie pre 2004 Euro standards change ?
If you have connected a Phase conductor to the neutral you may still be reading 240 volts locally but have no neutral ? Or Zero volts depending where you measure it.And dont forget you have 400 volts across phases which will give you a very nasty jolt so you should put up a warning sticker to that extent.

[Kevin Wood]

If you have a 3 phase cable then i assume you've got 3 x live and 1 x neutral and 1 x earth conductor.Are they the old colours ie pre 2004 Euro standards change ?
If you have connected a Phase conductor to the neutral you may still be reading 240 volts locally but have no neutral ? Or Zero volts depending where you measure it.And dont forget you have 400 volts across phases which will give you a very nasty jolt so you should put up a warning sticker to that extent.

The way I read it, it's pre-harmonised 3 phase armoured cable being used for a 1 phase supply, so red, blue and yellow somehow translates to live, neutral and earth.

[Lioned]

If you have a 3 phase cable then i assume you've got 3 x live and 1 x neutral and 1 x earth conductor.Are they the old colours ie pre 2004 Euro standards change ?
If you have connected a Phase conductor to the neutral you may still be reading 240 volts locally but have no neutral ? Or Zero volts depending where you measure it.And dont forget you have 400 volts across phases which will give you a very nasty jolt so you should put up a warning sticker to that extent.

The way I read it, it's pre-harmonised 3 phase armoured cable being used for a 1 phase supply, so red, blue and yellow somehow translates to live, neutral and earth.

Will have a black as well then ?

(should have said that you may not have a neutral in a 3 phase cable if its four core !)