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[Varche]

Angela Merkel visited Greece today to show support for their austerity measures. The Greeks were told NOT to show up on the streets in protest. Thankfully they did. Whatever happened to democracy?

I suppose this is what the USofEurope  will look like in the future.

She will get the same sort of welcome here in Spain in 12 months time when reality finally hits home and replaces current denial.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/10/80000-greeks-defy-ban-on-protests-offer-hostile-welcome-to-germanys-merkel-2477564.html

[cleggy]

I'm surprise they didn't have crowds forced to cheer the Fuhrer at every appropriate moment...... Now where does that remind me of??         

[Johnny English]

I saw a live broadcast from Athen where protesters hold agressive banners on which Merkel was mocked with her own portrait that was represented as Hitler among some nazi flag...I'm not sure of Greeks see either themselves or this situation clearly as if Merkel spent this huge amount of money but not them.

[kully]

ok, I'm a socialist. But those demonstrators setting fire to the bank and killing those people inside - not cool. And comparing her with Hitler, ffs

The prcompatible. in Greece are bad, but caused by the fraud of Greek officials when they joined and the massive tax evasion going on there.

[Sir Tigger KC]

ok, I'm a socialist. But those demonstrators setting fire to the bank and killing those people inside - not cool. And comparing her with Hitler, ffs

The prcompatible. in Greece are bad, but caused by the fraud of Greek officials when they joined and the massive tax evasion going on there.

  You're a rare creature on here!! 

[Varche]

When you look at the ordinary man or woman in the street and ask what did they actually get for the profligate borrowing and spending of money over the last five years it isn't very much. I have seen an improvement in local public space amenities BUT very very little else. However the ordinary man in the street is now being asked in Greece and Spain to give up a lot. My very, very meagre income has gone down but I have had to pay an extra 400 euros in taxes last year  and this year 850 euros on top of that increase. I am not surprised that people think it is unpopular to have austerity. The middle class and upper class here haven't seen much in the way of "cuts". The protests have a long way to run yet in Spain. Most of the country (our neighbours included) are in denial as to how bad the situation is. To give you an idea. Two years ago our neighbour said it will be back to normal in two years. he now thinks another year. We haven't seen anything yet.When Spain has to take the bailout it will have to impose Merkels draconian austerity measures like Ireland and Greece. I may even get involved in protests then............... 

[STMO123]

When you look at the ordinary man or woman in the street and ask what did they actually get for the profligate borrowing and spending of money over the last five years it isn't very much. I have seen an improvement in local public space amenities BUT very very little else. However the ordinary man in the street is now being asked in Greece and Spain to give up a lot. My very, very meagre income has gone down but I have had to pay an extra 400 euros in taxes last year  and this year 850 euros on top of that increase. I am not surprised that people think it is unpopular to have austerity. The middle class and upper class here haven't seen much in the way of "cuts". The protests have a long way to run yet in Spain. Most of the country (our neighbours included) are in denial as to how bad the situation is. To give you an idea. Two years ago our neighbour said it will be back to normal in two years. he now thinks another year. We haven't seen anything yet.When Spain has to take the bailout it will have to impose Merkels draconian austerity measures like Ireland and Greece. I may even get involved in protests then...............

I borrowed £12000. I spent three on an omega and the other nine on repairs.

[albitz]

No chance of things getting back to normal in his lifetime (even if hes a youngster) unless the PIGS leave the Euro and start setting their own interest rates. They should never have joined in the first place.
Problem is,as you say,the people who took the decision to join dont suffer but the ordinary man in the street will. Regular mass protests,all calling for the same thing,might in the end do some good if there is enough support in enough countries.
As the EU,s predecessor, the USSR found out,you cant ignore most of the people,all of the time.It will only work for so long.

[Varche]

STMO - that is the problem here. Folk borrowed zillions to either create new un-needed dwellings or borrowed money at low interest rates to buy property that no one needed. End result toxic debt. What a lovely turn of phrase. I bet a marketing person with a degree thought that one up.

Albitz. Me - I am not a youngster. I may well be dead before Spain gets on its feet. Being a pessimist I think ten years minimum or more. Again our neighbours laugh. privately they may even think I am deluded! 

[albitz]

I was referring to your neighbour when I said "even if hes a youngster". I agree btw,10 years minimum,possibly never,depending on how the next couple of years pan out.

[bored bigyin54]

I'm surprise they didn't have crowds forced to cheer the Fuhrer at every appropriate moment...... Now where does that remind me of??         

the uk

[cem_devecioglu]

Greece passed from a fake capitalist dream to a real economic nightmare.. but I do trust my neighbours..
 
sooner or later
 
 

[Rods2]

STMO - that is the problem here. Folk borrowed zillions to either create new un-needed dwellings or borrowed money at low interest rates to buy property that no one needed. End result toxic debt. What a lovely turn of phrase. I bet a marketing person with a degree thought that one up.

Albitz. Me - I am not a youngster. I may well be dead before Spain gets on its feet. Being a pessimist I think ten years minimum or more. Again our neighbours laugh. privately they may even think I am deluded! 

Like the Gold Standard in the 1930's those whose currency was pegged at too high a rate, really suffered if they stayed in it. The UK left early and did relatively well, France hung on and did very badly.

Now the Eurozone Gold standard is the "German cost base and productivity standard" so if you aren't competitive here then either leave the Euro or suffer. It is made worse by the fact any bailout will be aimed at saving all EU bank's from bad Spanish loans, like the Greek one has been, once the country has paid enough then it will be cut loose to fend for itself. Greek moment of truth is not far away, they will be bailed out until after the German elections as this is the best route for Merkel's reelection chances and then they will be cut loose.

Greece, Portugal and Spain are all in a austerity, recession, missed targets, more austerity economic death spirals.

There are three possible routes:

1. Keep on with this austerity madness, which is doomed to fail and accept EU bailouts, which will be used like in Greece to pay Spanish bad debts to German and French banks, so Spain has bigger and bigger national debts, until French and German bank debt is manageable and then be forced to exit the Euro as a totally destitute country. Greece is getting near to this.

2. Leave the EU, default and begin to recover and in the long term, providing the unions are tamed prosper.

3. Revolution.

Personally I think in Greece and Spain it will be number 1 followed by number 3.

I know Spain has been spending large amounts on civil defense, particularly on riot guns, tear gas rounds and rubber bullets.

Raising taxes is also another big mistake as each 1% rise in the tax burden makes the economy shrink by 2%. But it is much easier for politicians to front load austerity with tax rises and back load it with government spending cuts. Just as Hollende has done with his recent economic suicide note budget.

Still you are going to surrounded with similar company, Portugal is as bad, France will soon be joining you along with Italy.

[cem_devecioglu]

Greece would hit #3 long time ago.. but not permitted .. and wont be this time also..
 
but, nothing can stop them forever..