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Author Topic: apoptosis  (Read 6279 times)

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #15 on: 17 November 2012, 14:52:48 »

Again cem you are going off on a tangent.

Blockage of kidneys? How? happened , and proven .. I have spend 6 months on that subject..
 
0 outcome drug? What is that? So you are telling me that the FDA in the US and NICE in UK have licensed its use with absolutely no evidence at all? Sounds ludicrous to me.  if you dont believe me just look at the statistics how many drugs FDA have licensed and then pulled back.. all diuretics are dangerous .. thats a known fact.. but furosemide is the worst may be..

Leaving the body unstable and worse? Again it sounds like BS to me. The physiology you have stated makes no logical sense! than explain why makes no sense

A lot of my patients would really struggle with their breathing if I were to take them off their frusemide/Lasix today. And it is not a complicated drug to use or monitor at all. please write the formula and what parameters are required .. and how you can obtain those parameters ?
 
 
Like every other drug in the world it has side effects and a safety profile. Personally I would have more faith in Lasix than Ibuprofen/Neurofen that people seem to be popping all the time for pain relief.  so you accept that it has side effects.. but problem is , it can become deadly on old patients.. and doctors who used them dont warn their patients before use.. but even they accepted after a debate..
 


What bothers me is that you are spouting statements that you make sound like hard facts with absolutely nothing to back them up.
 
I dont need , just do a google search and you will face them.. problem is I learned through a very event.. I hope you wont
 
You are entitled to your opinion but don't force it on others particularly if you have no scientific evidence to back it up and just use hear say and something you may have read as evidence. I appreciate you may have had a bad experience with a particular drug,
 
for your information when I query my friends and doctor friends , 1 of them loose his mother from the same drug application, another was hardly saved ..
 
but it is scare mongering like yours that cause people to do silly things like not give their children MMR. Guess what, now when people are getting Measles they cant seem to find anyone else to blame but themselves and their scaremongering friends/family. Hence my initial comment on careless advice.
« Last Edit: 17 November 2012, 14:54:27 by cem »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #16 on: 17 November 2012, 14:57:34 »

besides, talking specifically about this drug, I read many documents about it and blockage of kidneys never mentioned anywhere else.. and some other side effects.. like many other drugs.. the producer company just sells it.. its effectively a 0 outcome drug may be minus because it leaves the human body completely unstable and worse than before its applied... >:( >:(
 
just an example how many drugs yearly seen to be harmful and later pulled out of market after we are used as test rabbits ?

That statement just goes on to show your complete lack of understanding of drug research and how extensive safety testing is done prior to human use. I think it is useless to try and take this any further with that sort of an attitude.

really ? I think the attitude of trusting those drugs and believing the research alone is not enough for a health professional.. and something may be you know better than me,  how many doctors apply dosing based on producers tested facts !!!
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #17 on: 17 November 2012, 15:06:02 »

After reading the various observations about doctors and prescribing drugs it reminds me once that giving medicine containing lead and arsenic was thought very beneficial.

Oh, and even smoking was considered good for you as well!! ;D ;D

I am sure others with medical training and an understanding history in that subject will tell us more :D :D ;)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #18 on: 17 November 2012, 15:06:06 »

and the last fact , please explain how good is this diuretic to people, who have lost their lifes because of it.. >:(
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #19 on: 17 November 2012, 15:06:41 »

After reading the various observations about doctors and prescribing drugs it reminds me once that giving medicine containing lead and arsenic was thought very beneficial.

I am sure others with medical training and an understanding history in that subject will tell us more :D :D ;)

 ;D :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #20 on: 17 November 2012, 15:16:52 »

 "As with many diuretics, it can cause dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, including loss of potassium, calcium, sodium, and magnesium. Excessive use of furosemide will most likely lead to a metabolic alkalosis due to hypochloremia and hypokalemia. The drug should, therefore, not be used in horses that are dehydrated or experiencing kidney failure. It should be used with caution in horses with liver problems or electrolyte abnormalities. Overdose may lead to dehydration, change in drinking patterns and urination, seizures, gastrointestinal problems, kidney damage, lethargy, collapse, and coma."
 
"
 
  • ringing in your ears, hearing loss;
  • feeling very thirsty or hot, being unable to urinate, heavy sweating, or hot and dry skin;
  • painful or difficult urination;
  • pale skin, unusual bleeding (nose, mouth, vagina, or rectum), purple or red pinpoint spots under your skin;
  • feeling light-headed or short of breath, rapid heart rate, trouble concentrating;
  • nausea, upper stomach pain, itching, loss of appetite, dark urine, clay-colored stools, jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes);
  • sudden numbness or weakness, especially on one side of the body;
  • skin rash, bruising, severe tingling, pain, muscle weakness;
  • dry mouth, increased thirst, drowsiness, restless feeling, confusion, nausea, vomiting, increased urination, muscle pain or weakness, uneven heart rate, fainting, or seizure (convulsions);
  • numbness or tingly feeling around your mouth, muscle tightness or contraction, overactive reflexes;
  • headache, trouble concentrating, weakness, loss of appetite, feeling unsteady, shallow breathing or breathing that stops
  • severe skin reaction -- fever, sore throat, swelling in your face or tongue, burning in your eyes, skin pain, followed by a red or purple skin rash that spreads (especially in the face or upper body) and causes blistering and peeling."
« Last Edit: 17 November 2012, 15:24:43 by cem »
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cem_devecioglu

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« Last Edit: 17 November 2012, 19:47:51 by cem »
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D

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #22 on: 18 November 2012, 04:06:42 »

Kidney damage is not the same as kidney blockage. Those are 2 completely different things and I am not being pedantic, just telling you the facts that the 2 are caused differently and have radically different treatments. Like I said before, Neurofen has a greater propensity to cause kidney damage than frusemide/Lasix. Yet you seem to think Lasix is the worst drug in the world, which is not true. It is one of the safest and easiest to use diuretics' provided you know what you are doing. I know medicine in Turkey is ok, but from your accounts it would seem the doctors there do not even know how to use a basic drug that has been around for many many years.

You list the side effects; so what? Look at most other drugs and you will se a list of side effects that are just as long or mostly even longer. No doctor prescribes drugs unless necessary, so why would you tell someone to run away if they were being prescribed a basic drug in the community? That is my POINT! Which you don't seem to get!

The rest of your argument is again baseless:

For eg :
"happened , and proven .. I have spend 6 months on that subject.." - that tells me nothing! Its a statement of belief, where is the factual information?

"if you dont believe me just look at the statistics how many drugs FDA have licensed and then pulled back.. all diuretics are dangerous .. thats a known fact.. but furosemide is the worst may be.." - And when was Frusemide withdrawn? What does that statement have to do with Frusemide? Where does your link say that Frusemide is the worst drug? I can think of other diuretics that are more difficult to use. Again a pointless statement form you.

"so you accept that it has side effects.. but problem is , it can become deadly on old patients.. and doctors who used them dont warn their patients before use.. but even they accepted after a debate.. " - Who accepted? Perhaps your local doctor? That simply proves that your local medical service is poor. Nothing to do with Frusemide or the international medical community? Again a nonsensical statement that proves nothing.

"I dont need , just do a google search and you will face them.. problem is I learned through a very event.. I hope you wont" - Again, if you are using google as a basis for medical information then you are barking up the wrong tree. People are very happy to blame certain drugs for all their problems and this is not limited to Lasix. Search for any drug, any! And I can assure you that you will find someone saying something about it. Once again it doesn't prove your statement that diuretics are the most dangerous drugs on the planet! You are extrapolating information to make a wrong assumption.

"for your information when I query my friends and doctor friends , 1 of them loose his mother from the same drug application, another was hardly saved .." - Again hearsay. How can you be guaranteed it was the Lasix that caused issues. This is like saying " Someone I know who knows someone said that it was ok to leave the power sounder attached to the car". Will you believe that? No! Because you have experience. In the same way as I have tens of thousands of patients on Lasix. Rather then your version of someone I know who knows someone else.

"really ? I think the attitude of trusting those drugs and believing the research alone is not enough for a health professional.. and something may be you know better than me,  how many doctors apply dosing based on producers tested facts !!!" - I dont know how to answer that question. What else do you suggest we do? Test it on ourselves first? Our pets maybe? We have to accept that the drug has passed a large safety trial and review the data presented. I am not sure how else to answer your question. I dont have my own laboratory to test new medicines.
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D

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #23 on: 18 November 2012, 04:13:21 »

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?
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jonnycool

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #24 on: 18 November 2012, 07:04:51 »

I'm with D on this one. Google and Youtube can't possibly be a substitute for proper medical training. And Frusemide contributed to helping my daughter survive 3 heart operations over the course of 7 years.
  As D says, no powerful drug is without its side effects, and that's why we train people for years to be able to use them properly
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #25 on: 18 November 2012, 10:20:06 »

I'm with D on this one. Google and Youtube can't possibly be a substitute for proper medical training. And Frusemide contributed to helping my daughter survive 3 heart operations over the course of 7 years.
  As D says, no powerful drug is without its side effects, and that's why we train people for years to be able to use them properly

Glad your daughter is ok now Jonny :y  but please keep in mind she is very young, and the very same drug creates more problems than it solves on elder people.. because their kidneys, liver dont work properly.. this increases the drugs life time in body causing more damage and easily leading to overdose..
 
ad as for internet education :)   if you can understand what you read and listen, the same applies to the school, because we humans learn by seeing and hearing.. you see the side effects.. very obvious , these all happen on my mother because of the same drug.. what would I do, try not to see it ? >:(
« Last Edit: 18 November 2012, 10:23:23 by cem »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #26 on: 18 November 2012, 10:25:07 »

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?

what ? people died because they had biased views.. how you can ignore them  ??? 
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #27 on: 18 November 2012, 10:27:33 »

Kidney damage is not the same as kidney blockage. Those are 2 completely different things and I am not being pedantic, just telling you the facts that the 2 are caused differently and have radically different treatments.

 ;D   
 
seriously, the body salts/minerals whatever rushing to the kidney filters block them.. so the patients stop urinating for a time..  please search more.. this happened and I dont owe any lie to anyone..
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cem_devecioglu

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D

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Re: apoptosis
« Reply #29 on: 18 November 2012, 16:28:36 »

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?

what ? people died because they had biased views.. how you can ignore them  ???

cem I know English isn't your native language but surely you understand what I mean. You provide a link to say how someone thinks risky drugs are brought onto the market. This someone works for a firm that specialises in medicolegal law. Do you not think they have a vested interest? Its like me linking to an article by Kwik fit saying how unsafe tyres are below 4mm as per their research. Then saying that any tyre shop that doesn't agree with you is wrong and therefore run a mile.
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