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[Vamps]

But the result is the same.....? I do not do political arguments, just see it as it is.............

[05omegav6]

Best: Thatcher for being the only one that I've been aware of who has actually lived up to the position.

Worst: Easily Blair cant that he is  As for gb,useless tit that he was, he wasn't pm long enough to actually  screw anything up, thank god. However he does deserve boiling in a pot of warm, mild acid along with Bliar for his efforts as chancellor 

Unions are a different issues all together...

Thinking about it, (to paraphrase), "We're going to need a bigger pot..."

[cleggy]

It was tongue in cheek Cleggy.The man was an idiot.He could have won and brought her career to a crashing stop but he was too stubborn and thick to realise it.
He was arguably the best weapon the Tories had in the late 20th century.

I realised that, however he was a bit brighter than the union members who lost jobs after struggling for 18 months. Communties were destroyed, local economies left in ruins and are still desperate places for him to end up a weathly man with a very comfortable life.
1984/5 were a sad time for this country for what

[albitz]

Agreed,but the miners culturally were fiercely loyal to their union and I couldnt help but admire that loyalty.He abused that loyalty in the most cynical dishounorable way possible for his own ends.
Ironically he could have won if his enormous ego hadnt got in the way.Polling organisations were polling the miners how they would vote in a ballot all the way through the strike and quite early on the polls said he would win a clear victory if he had a ballot.He refused point blank and that was the big stick that Maggie and the press beat him with unitl the humiliating defeat.
Im sure she was shitting bricks at the point where it was sensible for him to have a ballot,as a yes vote would have brought her government done,but luckily for her his stupidity and ego saved her skin.

[cleggy]

Some good men were broken in that strike.

We used to visit a miner friend and his family every three months for a Sunday lunch in Rotherham, and they would not accept any help only from their immediate families and what the strike fund paid them. The only way for me was to give his wife all my luncheon vouchers that I saved for them because Tesco accepted them for groceries. We were a group of three families who were friends who got together once a month at each others houses with two of us from Nottingham. Went for a lunch time pint in Rotherham and these miners came over and said, " You from Nottingham" in no uncertain terms. It was only when they knew I was originally from Huddersfield and the other guy from Manchester originally than they settled down, that and the fact we were with a militant picket.

Scargill used those men for his own ends    

[mantahatch]

lived off kicking the Argies butts imo.

them and the unions - there's nothing wrong with either

didnt say there was, poll and couincil tax though... and the handling of its introduction nearly saw me homeless at the time.

I remember that time quite well. I attended a broken down car at the local council offices. It was one of the workers there. Whilst fixing the car we talked about the poll tax. This person told me that poll tax was fine, the problem was how councils initiated it. She said rather than transfer the staff collecting the rates on to collecting poll tax the councils took on loads more staff to handel the poll tax and this act alone doubled the cost of poll tax. And of course they never got rid of the rates staff.
This was confirmed to me a little later when my friends wife got a job in the council. So I always blame local council for the poll tax fiasco, not the government. Especially as my elderly grandmother got an 80% discount on the poll tax, for no other reason than being old and retired.
I wonder how many pensioners today would like an 80% discount on there council tax.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Worst by far, Blair....a total an utter idiot running up debt in prosperous times which we may never see recovered in our life times. I actualy pity the poor sods trying to clear the mess up and fear the prospect of 'Pit the Younger' getting power and making it worse.

Best, difficult to say really, she did some bad things but on the whole Thatcher (in my life time) as she stood up to europe and turned a failing country around.

[cem_devecioglu]

from my point of view this article will talk better
http://www.socialismtoday.org/128/thatcher.html
 
"
The current economic crisis has furthered this process and engenders a sense of despair from capitalist economists about the weakened industrial base of Britain and what this will mean for the future. We consistently warned at the time and since that the substitution of a casino economy of the ‘candyfloss’ industries of finance, banking, etc, in place of production, of industries producing real value, would ultimately result in a catastrophe for British capitalism and the British people."
 
"In the recent, shameful distribution of character assassinating emails from Brown’s private office is once more revealed the degeneration of Labour from a pro-workers’ party at the bottom, albeit with a pro-capitalist leadership, into one no different in its politics and ‘morals’, or lack of them, than the other capitalist parties in Britain."

[cleggy]

 Cem, perhaps you should read the Mail to get a balanced view.   

[albitz]

It fails to mention how the old heavy industry in Britain would have been able to compete with the new heavy industries in the far east (China in particular) in the 21st century. I would imagine a blank cheque govt. subsidy would be taken for granted.
Finance isnt a candy floss industry.Its an absolutely vital industry (even in communist China) but this country got into the position where it relied too heavily on that sector (and allowed certain elements of it to operate completely out of control)and needs to learn that lesson in the longer term imo.
We cant suddenly conjure up competitive efficient shipyards etc. out of thin air though. A joined up,thought through long term plan needs to be drawn up but where are the types of people in this country now who are capable of doing that ?

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem, perhaps you should read the Mail to get a balanced view. 

Cleggy , the evidence and the proof is in front of everyone's eyes..  look what become the poor, old non industrialized china
 
besides, any govt or PM trying to lower the miners very hard earned wages will become my target.. no ifs buts..

[cem_devecioglu]

It fails to mention how the old heavy industry in Britain would have been able to compete with the new heavy industries in the far east (China in particular) in the 21st century. I would imagine a blank cheque govt. subsidy would be taken for granted.
Finance isnt a candy floss industry.Its an absolutely vital industry (even in communist China) but this country got into the position where it relied too heavily on that sector (and allowed certain elements of it to operate completely out of control)and needs to learn that lesson in the longer term imo.
We cant suddenly conjure up competitive efficient shipyards etc. out of thin air though. A joined up,thought through long term plan needs to be drawn up but where are the types of people in this country now who are capable of doing that ?

yes it is    if the industry dont produce anything ,  they will put toilet papers in their bank instead of valuable cash..      
 
they are useful/necessary if they work honestly and properly..  but their current position now is sucking whole communities blood!
 
please remember that I work for an organization that controls them

[cem_devecioglu]

oh and I forgot how this privatization brought every country to its knees including mine..   
 
I still remember those privatization fans how they cry when they loose their job!
 
and when the 98 earthquake hit country they shout where is govt!  here is your govt which you sell one by one and this is you get!  all mobile lines go down .. only normal cable phones work which is now already sold
 
I can tell millions of stories from my country what has happened!

[albitz]

Nationalisation brought this country to its knees Cem.We couldnt even get our dead buried or rubbish bins emptied in the late 70,s.
The Government didnt try to cut miners wages btw.The miners (and all the other nationalised industries) constantly went on strike for almost no reason whatsoever.Their annual wage rise demands were usually in the region of 20% - 30% which caused hyperinflation and resulted in the British Chancellor going cap in hand to the IMF because the country was bankrupt.

[cem_devecioglu]

Nationalisation brought this country to its knees Cem.We couldnt even get our dead buried or rubbish bins emptied in the late 70,s.
The Government didnt try to cut miners wages btw.The miners (and all the other nationalised industries) constantly went on strike for almost no reason whatsoever.Their annual wage rise demands were usually in the region of 20% - 30% which caused hyperinflation and resulted in the British Chancellor going cap in hand to the IMF because the country was bankrupt.

Albs, workers never go on strike for no apparent reason.. who is going to risk their job and wage if its the only way they buy food.. 
 
please dont tell me the good old British Empire is communist