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Author Topic: Electric car charging subsidy  (Read 3960 times)

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aaronjb

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #15 on: 20 February 2013, 11:35:24 »

In all those fields we led the world .... I wonder why ....

Because the Chinese couldn't make them cheaper [at the time]? ;)

*runs away from the politichat again*
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #16 on: 20 February 2013, 11:38:54 »

Did the first passengers on the Trains have to pay for the cost of the lines, tracks, signalling ??

Did the first users of the Underground have to pay the tunneling costs ?

Did the first users of the Channel Tunnel have to pay the tunneling costs ?

Did the first Car users have to pay for the construction of roads ?

Did the first aircraft passengers have to pay for the runways ?

Did the first users of Electricity have to pay for the building of Power Stations ??

The list goes on and on and on and on and ................

In all those fields we led the world .... I wonder why ....

Wow!  Quite a list Entwood! :D :D :D :D :y :y

Well in many cases, like the first trains, the first first car users, the first users of electric, YES they had to pay in the ticket prices / bills, or with the car the road fund licence for the cost of the infrastructure.  Certainly in Victorian England it was not the liberal minded, subsidy gifting government running the country, but hard nosed business and landed gentry souls who championed private enterprise, with all costs met by private investors.  In the case of the railways it led to Railway Mania of the 1840's which subsequently ruined many private individuals as their investments became worthless. Private land, private funds, and no government subsidy, that I am aware of, funded the railways and they either succeeded or went bust! ;)

With airports the fare paying passenger pays for the infrastructure through the price of the ticket to the airline who in turns pays airport taxes and other costs.

In the case of the Chunnel built in the modern age of government subsidy, ok we the taxpayer HAVE subsidised that, but at least that is a national capital project created out of national interests.  Not for the private individual. :y :y

So in all Entwood we, the British, led the World when private enterprise paid for all industrial and commercial developments. The British India Company was a commercial company that created wealth and power for Britain. It was the likes of the Great Western Railway Company who created the network of railways.  Etc, etc, all done with private investment, no government subsidy. :y :y
« Last Edit: 20 February 2013, 11:43:34 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Nickbat

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #17 on: 20 February 2013, 11:39:21 »

Did the first passengers on the Trains have to pay for the cost of the lines, tracks, signalling ??

Did the first users of the Underground have to pay the tunneling costs ?

Did the first users of the Channel Tunnel have to pay the tunneling costs ?

Did the first Car users have to pay for the construction of roads ?

Did the first aircraft passengers have to pay for the runways ?

Did the first users of Electricity have to pay for the building of Power Stations ??

The list goes on and on and on and on and ................

In all those fields we led the world .... I wonder why ....

Did the motorist have to pay for the QE2 bridge on the M25? (And they are still paying over and above the cost!)
Will the mobile user pay for the 4G network?

etc., etc. ;)

Besides which, the government is paying with OUR money. We should have a say and, increasingly, we are having less and less of a say. >:( :(
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Abiton

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #18 on: 20 February 2013, 11:41:43 »

I think encouraging people to use electric cars is extremely valid.

If you think that oil will be economically attainable forever, you are deluded.

I expect to own an all-electric car within the next five years.  :y

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Entwood

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #19 on: 20 February 2013, 11:59:44 »

Lizzie, may I refer you to your posts #7, #22, #41 & #52 in this thread ??

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111491.0

I assume you have now changed your mind and expect all the passengers to pay for the infrastructure costs ??

Or is "OK" as its a rail thing ?? but "road" things are bad ??

Confused of Wiltshire ....  :(
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Nickbat

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #20 on: 20 February 2013, 12:24:51 »

I think encouraging people to use electric cars is extremely valid.

If you think that oil will be economically attainable forever, you are deluded.

I expect to own an all-electric car within the next five years.  :y

At the moment, electric cars are thoroughly useless, unless you happen to live in a big city and don't expect to undertake and long distance/motorway driving. The only way to make them viable is to have petrol stations stock fully charged batteries and have the cars designed so that you can pull into a station and change the battery as easily as you would normally fill up. That may happen, but I think it will be a decade or so before it becomes a reality. Also, given the parlous state of our national grid, I can not rule out the government urging us NOT to use electricity in the not-too-distant future. ;) ;D

At the moment, I can see no chance of electric cars achieving anything but paltry sales. Look at my OP and see how many were sold in the entire country last year!
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albitz

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #21 on: 20 February 2013, 12:31:11 »

I saw a motoring journo interviewed about electric cars on TV yesterday.He had spent a lot of time driving them and said that manufacturers calims for performance were nonsense.They dont cover anything like the claimed distances,and if any electrical circuits such as lights,heater etc are used,the miles per charge are reduced to laughable distances.
At some point in the future they may be viable,but the govt. shouldnt be rushing into creating an infrastructure for the wrong reasons - appease the limpdems and other collective tree huggers,trying yet again to "detoxify" the Tory party,appeal to gullible voters etc.
We should probably be having this discussion in 10 years time,and those who are for it would then have a much stronger argument.
At present imo,its stretching the credibility of definition of infrastructure to refer to it as an infrastructure project.There isnt really a need or demand for it outside major cities,and it will be quite a while before there is.

« Last Edit: 20 February 2013, 12:33:18 by Albitz »
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aaronjb

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #22 on: 20 February 2013, 12:32:24 »

Also, given the parlous state of our national grid, I can not rule out the government urging us NOT to use electricity in the not-too-distant future. ;) ;D

Haven't they been doing that for years already under the auspices of the green banner?
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Abiton

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #23 on: 20 February 2013, 12:34:34 »

Nickbat:

Lots of people only commute relatively short distances.

Lots of families have more than one car, one of which could be electric, the other not. This would give the flexibility required to cover long journeys etc.

Recharging is generally an overnight thing, so grid loading worries are irrelevant.

Yes, there aren't many around yet, which is why encouragement is a good thing.
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henryd

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #24 on: 20 February 2013, 12:36:51 »

I think encouraging people to use electric cars is extremely valid.

If you think that oil will be economically attainable forever, you are deluded.

I expect to own an all-electric car within the next five years.  :y

At the moment, electric cars are thoroughly useless, unless you happen to live in a big city and don't expect to undertake and long distance/motorway driving. The only way to make them viable is to have petrol stations stock fully charged batteries and have the cars designed so that you can pull into a station and change the battery as easily as you would normally fill up. That may happen, but I think it will be a decade or so before it becomes a reality. Also, given the parlous state of our national grid, I can not rule out the government urging us NOT to use electricity in the not-too-distant future. ;) ;D

At the moment, I can see no chance of electric cars achieving anything but paltry sales. Look at my OP and see how many were sold in the entire country last year!

If/when battery technology improves the range issues then sales will go up.
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #25 on: 20 February 2013, 12:53:49 »

Lizzie, may I refer you to your posts #7, #22, #41 & #52 in this thread ??

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111491.0

I assume you have now changed your mind and expect all the passengers to pay for the infrastructure costs ??

Or is "OK" as its a rail thing ?? but "road" things are bad ??

Confused of Wiltshire ....  :(

Yes, sorry Entwood, I can understand how I am confusing you :D :D ;)

I do tend to have two principles on these matters as, I believe anyway, the subject is a complicated one when trying to draw a line between the responsibilities of private individuals / companies and those of the government of our fair land.

With railways they should be viewed as the way mass transportation of both passengers and freight should be in the rest of the 21st century. Passengers, and the companies using the railways for freight, should pay for the travel and towards the upkeep of the railway system.  The complication comes with the matter of catching up with the rebuilding of that infrasture that was for at least 50 years left to decline without the investment it required.  British Railways were formed on 1st January 1948 with the government of the day taking on the liabilities of the system.  However railways were becoming rapidly less fashionable and the government left them to basically rot, unlike the BR predecessors', the 'Big Four' railway companies who used private money and much commitment in a true competitive commercial market to run and improve their investment. BR / the government ignored those principles and have created for us in 2012 a railway system infrasture that is still creaking and straining under the demands of today, with passenger numbers at their highest ever.

We, the taxpayer should pay  a percentage of the cost to Network Rail for the billions of pounds of work that is required to update the railway system to give the nation the transport choices we will need in 2050 and beyond, if not as of now!

With the car it is certain, and I am never happy as a petrol head to admit this, it's days in the form we are so used to are numbered. By 2050, with a population of 65 going on to 70 million, we can not possibly build enough motorways of sufficient size to have a swelled number of motorists travelling around between cities without huge tailbacks and general hold-ups.  The government therefore must encourage, and this is already happening in many respects, greater use of public transport.  This will cost billions of taxpayers money, unless, and I strongly favour this, private enterprise to pay for the giant upgrade required to all forms of public transport, with them enjoying the profits from their created business to reward them fully.

It would be great if we, the British, could afford all that his on our 'wish list'. Electric cars for all with all costs paid for; new and extended railway, metro, and underground systems, with buses running in great numbers locally as they do in London, and roads all upgraded to cope with any demands placed on them in the 21st century. 

However, the sad truth is our government now or in the foreseeable future will not have enough of our money to pay for all this. Hard choices have to be made. This is where I end up splitting my principles Nigel. My choice is to give high subsidy from us, the tax payer, to the development of the public transport system, with rail travel given the priority. To do this we, the tax payer, cannot pay for subsides given to private transport for individuals. As from the beginning of car usage, it is the owner and user of that vehicle to pay for their running costs.  That includes any new form of private, low occupation, vehicle such as electric cars.  As with petrol / diesel  vehicles, the owner and user should pay for the electric 'fuel' they use, as you and I pay for it in our homes, with a percentage in that price to allow for the creation and maintenance of the infrasture such as charging points.  I suggest the power company's should be given the chance to enter into a competitive commercial bidding procedure to secure the business of the charging points after they have installed them without any local or national government involvement beyond usual planning and regulatory considerations.

So, in all that would be my policy if I was in government.  It is a policy favouring the private commercial sector in the capitalist state we live in. As in the 'great days' of Victorian England that built so much of our wealth, power, and infrasture, we should again drive forward on those principles. Private commercialism is usually far more efficient than any politically blinkered government.

I hope that clarifies my multi-level beliefs and 'policies' Nigel.  I know they will not be welcomed by all, but hey, such is politics! :D :D :y :y :y :y
« Last Edit: 20 February 2013, 12:56:17 by Lizzie Zoom »
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omega3000

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #26 on: 20 February 2013, 13:03:48 »

Remind me of the price of the cheapest affordable electric car  ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #27 on: 20 February 2013, 13:07:54 »

Remind me of the price of the cheapest affordable electric car  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not cheap EMD, but you do get a £5,000 subsidy! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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omega3000

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #28 on: 20 February 2013, 13:13:27 »

Remind me of the price of the cheapest affordable electric car  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not cheap EMD, but you do get a £5,000 subsidy! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y

Great that will pay for this then  :D http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201302045182504/sort/default/usedcars/model/g-wiz/make/reva/page/1?logcode=p  ;D
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mantahatch

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Re: Electric car charging subsidy
« Reply #29 on: 20 February 2013, 13:22:50 »

Remind me of the price of the cheapest affordable electric car  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not cheap EMD, but you do get a £5,000 subsidy! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y

Great that will pay for this then  :D http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201302045182504/sort/default/usedcars/model/g-wiz/make/reva/page/1?logcode=p  ;D

And a set of batteries cost http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-X-T125-G-WIZ-DEEP-CYCLE-BATTERIES-GWIZ-G-WIZ-BATTERY-/330873215051?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d0994984b


Sadly I could run one of those. I do 6.5 miles to work and 6.3 miles home again (slightly different route) It would save mea lot of money in the long run. 
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